Need help with discussion of gays from biblical view
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I do not approve the life style of living in lust and some refuse to follow God specifically because they love to live in their lust, Jesus said unless you give up everything you cannot be my follower and I can attest to this because even though I wanted to be saved for a long while it wasn't until I told him he can have everything I own and everything I am if he would just come into my heart.
If people hold the things of the world above him then even if they think they are Christians in heart they are not, I feel for the gays it cannot be easy to have such desires especially if you are wanting to follow God but these desires won't go away but I also know that doesn't mean they should live the I was born this way excuse even regular sexual desires are something that is about self control and though all of us stumble and fall even if one deals with such desires as the gays it's matter of if you are willing to get back up and keep moving forward.
I cannot say that a gay cannot be a Christian I believe we all have a thorn at our side in one form or another I have seen some lose that desire when they are saved others while showing true fruit of the spirit still to this day struggle with those desires and perhaps God intends to use that.
If people hold the things of the world above him then even if they think they are Christians in heart they are not, I feel for the gays it cannot be easy to have such desires especially if you are wanting to follow God but these desires won't go away but I also know that doesn't mean they should live the I was born this way excuse even regular sexual desires are something that is about self control and though all of us stumble and fall even if one deals with such desires as the gays it's matter of if you are willing to get back up and keep moving forward.
I cannot say that a gay cannot be a Christian I believe we all have a thorn at our side in one form or another I have seen some lose that desire when they are saved others while showing true fruit of the spirit still to this day struggle with those desires and perhaps God intends to use that.
M
Hi Blain this is my opinion, I honestly think sexuality is a mind
set which is mostly developed and influenced in childhood. But which
can also be influenced later on. The influences both in childhood and
adulthood can be many.
As an example I have four cousins brought up in the same way within the
same household, all men. One of them is gay, he got into a lot of trouble
as a young teen (he is in his 50's not so this all happened a long time ago).
As a result of things he did in his teens he spent some years in borstal
which is like a young offenders institute, but back then it was very
strict and run almost military style. The idea behind them was to
install a sense of responsibility and discipline into young people.
Only thing was that while in there he was subject to homosexual influences
which he continued to see and befriend after he got out. I am talking about
homosexual men who befriended him etc. Men who were a lot older than
him and who introduced him to that lifestyle.
So here we see one of the types of influences which can affect a young person
for example. I'm sure there are many more, TV, friends, porn, bad parents etc.
For others they may have excellent Christian parents but they go through a
rebellious stage and as a result start experimenting etc.
The sexuality of most is set in childhood teen years. So for example what makes
a person take a liking to young boys or girls, that's not genetic. There are all sorts
of other preversions also but they are not genetic either.
I fear that the way the world is going it will increase. There use to be a
definite sense of right and wrong but now there isn't and anything goes. So
people have more freedom to explore all of their limits and beyond without fear
of someone telling them it's wrong.
When I was growing up I was a bit of a tom boy only because I preferred
playing with the boys instead of the girls, I was still very much a girl. But
nowadays if someone appears to be a Tom boy people start to treat them as a boy
etc. It's no wonder young people are getting confused.
set which is mostly developed and influenced in childhood. But which
can also be influenced later on. The influences both in childhood and
adulthood can be many.
As an example I have four cousins brought up in the same way within the
same household, all men. One of them is gay, he got into a lot of trouble
as a young teen (he is in his 50's not so this all happened a long time ago).
As a result of things he did in his teens he spent some years in borstal
which is like a young offenders institute, but back then it was very
strict and run almost military style. The idea behind them was to
install a sense of responsibility and discipline into young people.
Only thing was that while in there he was subject to homosexual influences
which he continued to see and befriend after he got out. I am talking about
homosexual men who befriended him etc. Men who were a lot older than
him and who introduced him to that lifestyle.
So here we see one of the types of influences which can affect a young person
for example. I'm sure there are many more, TV, friends, porn, bad parents etc.
For others they may have excellent Christian parents but they go through a
rebellious stage and as a result start experimenting etc.
The sexuality of most is set in childhood teen years. So for example what makes
a person take a liking to young boys or girls, that's not genetic. There are all sorts
of other preversions also but they are not genetic either.
I fear that the way the world is going it will increase. There use to be a
definite sense of right and wrong but now there isn't and anything goes. So
people have more freedom to explore all of their limits and beyond without fear
of someone telling them it's wrong.
When I was growing up I was a bit of a tom boy only because I preferred
playing with the boys instead of the girls, I was still very much a girl. But
nowadays if someone appears to be a Tom boy people start to treat them as a boy
etc. It's no wonder young people are getting confused.
This topic has really been beat up and i often wonder about the motives when it is posted. However, The bible is and has alway been very clear in the context of men and women relationships and what they are to be and not to be. Gen 2:24 lev 18:4-30 Deu 22:13-18 Matt 5:31-33 Rom 1:27-28 These verse show us that God plan for man and women in marriage No where in the bible did God create sexual relationship to be other than with one man and one women. His standard is very clear and God also said that same sex relationship was not nor would ever be acceptable in His site. As far as the desires of the Flesh, the bible is very clear on that too. The Flesh is alway against the will of god period. So it really is not that mind boggling when we understand that the " flesh " is alway war with Gods will, plan, and law. The Good News is Jesus can and has saved us from our sin and will provide power to live free from sexual sin. that too is adultery , murder, lies, drunker which all sins and those who Practices these thing WILL Not Inheirt the Kingdom of God. But we do not point out another sin to dismiss a sin one practices either. Homosexuality is sin because God said so. God did not create man this way the sinful nature did. However, the Power of God can deliver all from sin and bondage if we trust the Lord Jesus to do so.
I explained my motive for it in the op. I do agree that some intentionally post threads about sensitive subjects just to cause trouble but I am not one of those kinds of people. If you want to delete this thread by all means go ahead I got the help I needed and there was actually a good discussion which is rare in the bible discussion forum
T
I've been re-reading the Bible lately ... and have been bringing many questions and observations as I go to the board ... but when I read GEN 19 ... I simply labelled it too ugly to bring here...
PHIL 4:8
8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.
PHIL 4:8
8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.
R
I never said they could not come to Christ 
All are ONLY saved through grace.
I was moreover pointing out that through many discussions on this topic these pertinent scriptures don't seem to get investigated ...
All are ONLY saved through grace.
I was moreover pointing out that through many discussions on this topic these pertinent scriptures don't seem to get investigated ...
if I were to be honest when I was brand new into faith although I can't say Im not new now I didn't think one could have such desires and be saved, to this day I still do not know what makes one have such desires as I have been told the Gay gene was never found and does not exist but perhaps just some ppl are born with certain disorders even if it isn't in their families gene pool perhaps their lust for the same sex is similar.
I cannot consider myself more clean or more righteous than one who lusts after the same sex after all how can sinner judge another sinner? I will point my finger to myself before I point it to another.
I cannot consider myself more clean or more righteous than one who lusts after the same sex after all how can sinner judge another sinner? I will point my finger to myself before I point it to another.
I believe it is an instinct in people to believe in a higher power,which the Bible says creation testifies there is a higher power,so they are without excuse,and for a man to be attracted,to a woman,and woman,to be attracted to a man.
But we have the ability to sin,if we desire,and if creation testifies of a higher power,so they are without excuse,and some people go against that,not believing in a higher power,then people that should be attracted to the opposite sex,can lust after the same sex,which God sees homosexuality as lust,and sin.
God sees homosexuality as a sin,and that part of the body is not meant for that,testifying that it is sin,and if someone is born gay,then they would have a sin attached to them at birth,but at birth they are innocent,and have a clean slate,which people are born not knowing God,and will do wrong until they come to God,but at birth they are innocent,for the angels always behold the face of the Father,for the little ones.
But we have the ability to sin,if we desire,and if creation testifies of a higher power,so they are without excuse,and some people go against that,not believing in a higher power,then people that should be attracted to the opposite sex,can lust after the same sex,which God sees homosexuality as lust,and sin.
God sees homosexuality as a sin,and that part of the body is not meant for that,testifying that it is sin,and if someone is born gay,then they would have a sin attached to them at birth,but at birth they are innocent,and have a clean slate,which people are born not knowing God,and will do wrong until they come to God,but at birth they are innocent,for the angels always behold the face of the Father,for the little ones.
so then it's a choice? Even if i wanted to rebel against God as I said in the op I can choose to be sexually attracted to another man but would be grossed out it's just not in me. I don't think ppl are attracted to the same sex simply because they choose to because what of those who have those desires and come to us to pray that those desires go away? if it's a choice then they can choose to suddenly turn it off but many I have spoken to have told me how they were bawling at night begging God to take away their desires for the same sex but it didn't.
If it's to simply defy God then what about atheists? They have knowledge of God but refuse to accept his existence but many atheists have natural urges
If it's to simply defy God then what about atheists? They have knowledge of God but refuse to accept his existence but many atheists have natural urges
M
I think that yes it is a choice, but it's an addictive choice and also a mind set which
can be broken in Christ.
Mind sets are very hard to break for all of us. It's partly to do with up bringing,
partly to do with habits (I heard it said that if you do something for 6 weeks it
becomes ingrained in the mind? Likewise bad habbits can be broken by doing
something different). I'm not talking about drugs etc which have a real physical
effect on the body. It's more like biting your nails, acting in a certain way in a
certain set of circumstances, porn.
In fact porn is a very good example as it feeds the appetites of both the mind
and body and so does homosexuality. But no one was born with a porn gene.
No one was born with a BDSM gene, etc
Then there is the demonic influence which should not be played down.
In fact Satan is a massive influence more so than people can ever comprehend.
I know as I have been shown it. Satan would rather we ignore his influence
and pretend he isn't there.
Incidentally these verses were directed at Christians, we are in a raging spiritual
battle and we know Christ! So imagine the battle raging around non Christians
who are already defeated and are captives of the enemy.
2 Corinthians 10:3-6 NKJV
[3] For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
[4] For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling
down strongholds, [5] casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts
itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the
obedience of Christ, [6] and being ready to punish all disobedience when your
obedience is fulfilled.
Romans 12:1-2 NKJV
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present
your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable
service. [2] And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the
renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable
and perfect will of God.
One thing I don't agree with is the assumption gays are lost forever or that
they cannot be saved. It is possible for someone to be saved but still
tempted and even fall into sin, as it is with us all. Just because someone gives
into temptation doesn't mean they are not saved otherwise we would all be doomed.
It's a matter of the heart which only Christ can see and understands. The salvation
of any person who claims to be a Christian, is between them and God.
Yes we can correct, encourage, exhort etc but ultimately He is God and we
are not.
D
It is specifically covered in the Bible, just as every type of sin we do is covered.
But I often wonder if it isn't something in our makeup that makes us the way we are even before we're born. (If it is, I'm more inclined to believe it's The Fall, not a gene.) I could no more be a homosexual than a bank robber. It's not some gleam of purity in me. It's my makeup. I've stolen coins, pens, and paper, so its not like I'm so great I'd never rob. I just can't imagine robbing a bank or any business at threat of physical violence. And it's not the physical violence that gets me, since I have aimed my knee to a groin, I have scratched, slapped, hit, and punched. Guns -- the line in the sand. And lets not get into the sin areas I am good at. But let's not get into it, not because it's less than violent robbery or homosexuality. There is still part of me drawn toward that dark spot in hopes God doesn't pull me out of it kicking and screaming. (For my chief sin spot, he already has, an I'm not entirely sure I'm done kicking and screaming about it 20 years later.)
But yes, God does cover homosexuality, as he covers all sin, in his book. (And notice who we are, by nature, is AFTER giving "dishonorable passions." Most of what we do is covered under "debased minds," so we aren't just reacting to a feeling anymore. We're thinking it over first, and then doing it.)
Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
But I often wonder if it isn't something in our makeup that makes us the way we are even before we're born. (If it is, I'm more inclined to believe it's The Fall, not a gene.) I could no more be a homosexual than a bank robber. It's not some gleam of purity in me. It's my makeup. I've stolen coins, pens, and paper, so its not like I'm so great I'd never rob. I just can't imagine robbing a bank or any business at threat of physical violence. And it's not the physical violence that gets me, since I have aimed my knee to a groin, I have scratched, slapped, hit, and punched. Guns -- the line in the sand. And lets not get into the sin areas I am good at. But let's not get into it, not because it's less than violent robbery or homosexuality. There is still part of me drawn toward that dark spot in hopes God doesn't pull me out of it kicking and screaming. (For my chief sin spot, he already has, an I'm not entirely sure I'm done kicking and screaming about it 20 years later.)
But yes, God does cover homosexuality, as he covers all sin, in his book. (And notice who we are, by nature, is AFTER giving "dishonorable passions." Most of what we do is covered under "debased minds," so we aren't just reacting to a feeling anymore. We're thinking it over first, and then doing it.)
Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
M
I deal with drug addicts and I have heard the old story about begging God ...but I have never seen God fail anyone who actually sought to be set free and became a "doer" of what it took to get past a issue .. A guy can beg God to deliver them from porn but until they do a few needed things ..such as not look at the backside of ever girl they see and if needed turn of the internet service ...they have not "acted" in a way that says they really desire deliverance ...then there could be some spiritual issue where a person needs to go to real elders in the church who have real power from God .... but the whole crying thing is often just a show in my experience ....