No Longer to Obey Commandments

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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,213
6,548
113
#41
Paul is not talking about making the two covenants into one covenant. He is talking about making the Jew and the Gentile into one people - the Church. "by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man."
So, the new covenant grace did not make into one all of Gods people.........??? By His fulfilling the prophecies of the 1st and establishing the 2nd, He did not reconcile all to God? Hmm

(will return later........errands to run)

Still does not address the commandments of Paul, Peter and James though.................would really like an answer on those.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
612
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Alabama
#42
So, the new covenant grace did not make into one all of Gods people.........??? By His fulfilling the prophecies of the 1st and establishing the 2nd, He did not reconcile all to God? Hmm

(will return later........errands to run)

Still does not address the commandments of Paul, Peter and James though.................would really like an answer on those.
I am not sure you and I are talking about the same thing here. Either that or you are very confused about the issue of the New Covenant and the reconciling of the Jew and the Gentile.
 

Reborn

Senior Member
Nov 16, 2014
4,087
216
63
#43
Still, none of this addresses the question in the OP..........IF the two commandments fulfill all other commandments of Christ, do they also fulfill all the commandments of Paul, James and Peter?
Wow.
I can see where you are going PR...you received some really complicated answers for such an easy question.

Wouldn't the answer simply be.... Yes?

Unless, that is, you were looking for an answer deeper than the word --yes?
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
612
113
70
Alabama
#44
I am not sure you and I are talking about the same thing here. Either that or you are very confused about the issue of the New Covenant and the reconciling of the Jew and the Gentile.
Got to run for now. Will be back later this evening.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#45
When we look at Mat Chapter 5 and see Jesus' teaching on the ten commandments; we must realize that none of us can claim to perfectly obey any of them!

Ro 8:1-13
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
KJV


As I understand what is being said here:

1) The Law is perfectly righteous and perfect obedience to it will yield righteousness.

2) The Law is incapable of providing righteousness to anyone because our fallen nature is incapable of perfect obedience.

3) Our failure to keep the Law perfectly is not condemned because Jesus obeyed it for us.

4) As a result of accepting what Jesus has done on our behalf, the Holy Spirit takes residence within us.

5) As a result of the Holy Spirit living within us, we are given a new nature, who makes war on our fallen nature; but elects not to destroy it.

6) Our new nature, progressively transforms our character and desires to conform to those of Christ.

Therefore a true believer will not persist in sin; but our old nature will on occasion drag us into sin.
 
Sep 6, 2014
7,034
5,435
113
#46
Well, I'm the legalist in this thread and I have to agree with you p_rehbein, either we obey or we don't, we don't get to pick and choose whom we obey, only if we will.
Well you must be obedient to the whole law then; all 600+ of them if you wish to perfectly obey the whole OT and remember in Matthew 5 Christ says to think sin is to sin. You teach others bondage to laws that only Christ could keep that men can not, we all are guilty of sin on a mental level daily some just don't think so and i'm not talking willful sin either. The flesh is against our Spirit and that will not change, until we take on the incorruptible. When you call someone a fool (stupid) you are a murderer. When you say i have no sin you bear false witness. Some don't see this in their flesh because they are to busy pointing the finger at everyone else like a Pharisee and say "behold that sinner who teaches the transgression of God's law!" but those under grace are freed from the bondage of the law. The law killed us and convicted us of our sin. Now we live by Christ and His Spirit through faith working in love towards man and God.There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus that live by the Spirit and not by the flesh. Even those who don't believe have the 10 commandments written on their heart. Ask an atheist do you steal? do you kill? and why not......they will say something like it's immoral. You expect God to give you credit for something automatically written into the heart of man, it's not gonna happen. If you love God you will keep His NT commands and instructions given through Christ and by those who have spoken moved by His Spirit like brother Paul and Peter that say we aren't under law as slaves but are free in Christ.

When i was a child i got the belt for punishment and it did nothing but make me think my dad was cruel but when we reconciled and he forgave me the love and mercy shown to me wanted me to love him more and do my best not to offend him. We are on that side of Father's love now but we admit we failed God prior to this while trying to obey the law and He said I forgive you the blood of Christ paid for all your sins. Now we have escaped wrath and are compelled to reflect his love. This makes us forgive and love others and walk solely by faith not trusting ourselves anymore to do what only our mind thinks is right towards God but by His Spirit.

Mark 2:20-22
21No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse. 22And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
 
Sep 6, 2014
7,034
5,435
113
#47
When we look at Mat Chapter 5 and see Jesus' teaching on the ten commandments; we must realize that none of us can claim to perfectly obey any of them!

Ro 8:1-13
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
KJV


As I understand what is being said here:

1) The Law is perfectly righteous and perfect obedience to it will yield righteousness.

2) The Law is incapable of providing righteousness to anyone because our fallen nature is incapable of perfect obedience.

3) Our failure to keep the Law perfectly is not condemned because Jesus obeyed it for us.

4) As a result of accepting what Jesus has done on our behalf, the Holy Spirit takes residence within us.

5) As a result of the Holy Spirit living within us, we are given a new nature, who makes war on our fallen nature; but elects not to destroy it.

6) Our new nature, progressively transforms our character and desires to conform to those of Christ.

Therefore a true believer will not persist in sin; but our old nature will on occasion drag us into sin.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MarcR again.
 
Dec 9, 2011
13,740
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#48
Yes but if you violate one of the ten and claim to be obeying the two, are you really obeying the two Great Commandments?
Hello John832
I left the house and when I came back there was a lot of new post ,I didn't want you to think I overlooked your statement.

I would say that I would have to agree with what you say except I would have asked the question like this:but if you violate one of the two commandments wouldn't you not be establishing the law? and I would say yes that's true but there is now no more condemnation to those who are in CHRIST JESUS.


The reason I would put the two commandments before the ten is because there was no way to keep the ten commandments because of the weakness of the flesh.The ten commandments were given before JESUS came to earth in the flesh and they had to do them and they couldn't perfect the conscious.After JESUS finished the work perfectly the way GOD would accept.(the inside) before JESUS left earth he graced right standing in GODs sight back to those who believe in the WORD of GOD.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#49
So, then, when we follow the two commandments......we also establish in truth the commandments of Paul? In our hearts they are established.......so no need to attempt physical obedience? Just wondering. I think these are valid question.
Hey p_rehbein
I'm not sure about the commandments of Paul but I will read up on it so I can better understand.
The part about no need to attempt physical obedience I would say that if its in truth it will come easily and naturally.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#50
That may well be true, and good for you, and God bless. But what about the new believer who has just dedicated their life to Christ and is reading the Bible for the first time? Are we not to consider them?
Are you saying the OT food laws should be presented to them?

The most important thing to consider is that the doctrine they receive is the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

As new believers, I suspect they will be reading the NT, where in short time
they will come to Mt 22:37-40.

Or in whatever part of the NT they read, they will encounter the doctrine of Jesus Christ, as presented by Jesus Christ and his apostles.

Not to worry. . .
 
S

sparty-g

Guest
#51
I don't need the food laws torn out of my Bible to know they are not in force

(Mt 15:10; Mk 7:19; Ro 14:14, 20; Heb 9:10; 1Co 8:7-8, 10:25-29; 1Ti 4:3-5).
Whew, here we go! Grab hold of something, it's gonna move quickly:

(I believe the problem with the common interpretations of these verses is that they don't consider the immediate context and they bring in opinions about matters foreign to the text. Then these verses are all used to justify each other, but you can't justify one passage by another misunderstood, de-contextualized passage. I will attempt to show what I believe to be the proper context for each. The result will be that none of the verses can be used to support each other. All of this is up for debate and I imagine this will start a firestorm!)

Mt. 15 -- The Messiah was addressing ritual hand-washing, which was a Pharisaical rule and not a command of God. V.15:10 must be understood in this context. He certainly didn't mean we can consume anything because that would include human flesh, blood, etc. And if He was teaching that we can consume anything, then He would have been in direct violation of God's Law. The evidence that He wasn't teaching against the Law: The Pharisees didn't immediately arrest Him! Also, 10-15 years later, Peter (who surely was a witness to this event) seems completely unaware of this "supposed teaching" that He can eat or drink whatever he likes (cf. Acts 10, and below). The Messiah here also chastises the Pharisees for putting aside the commands of God, but some today believe He Himself put aside the commands of God with this teaching? Huh? In Matt. 15:20, the Messiah provides the interpretation of his parable (and yes, V.15 calls it a parable, which are not often literal teachings): "These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man." Let's let the Messiah do the interpreting for us instead of creating our own interpretation.

Mark 7 -- Same story as above. V.19 is highly contested in terms of what is the best translation. The KJV renders it being about biological processes: "Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?" "Thus He declared" is not in any Greek manuscript. Even if it's best rendered as Him "declaring all foods clean," unclean meats were not considered food. Again, the evidence: The Pharisees didn't immediately arrest Him, and Peter clearly did not interpret it in this manner. Do we know better than Peter, who walked with the Messiah? The Messiah already provided the interpretation of this parable in Matt. 15.

Rom. 14 -- The specific issue causing disunity in the community is not the Lev. 11 dietary instructions. V1. says it's about disputable matters of opinion. When did the clear commands of God become disputable matters of opinion? Paul clearly defines it for us as vegetarians (V.2) and possibly those who abstain from wine (V.21) on one hand, and non-vegetarians and possibly wine drinkers on the other hand. All of Paul's statements must be understand within the context that he sets up and about the specific debate at hand, including Rom. 14:14. The issue influencing believers in the Roman community is likely meat sacrificed to idols, or possibly asceticism (or both?).

Heb. 9:10 -- Read the whole chapter. The context is priests and temple services from start to end, which include meat and drink offerings. This has nothing to do with what you, a non-priest outside of temple services and offerings, should eat or drink.

1 Cor. 8 -- The context is "eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols" (V.4). VV.8-9 are about this narrow aspect alone. This was a huge deal and caused some to become vegetarians, as indicated in Rom. 14. This is not about the Lev. 11 dietary restrictions.

1 Cor. 10 -- Same context as above: meat sacrificed to the altars of idols. Some people refused to purchase meat from the markets for fear it had been offered in pagan temple services. You could never know, so it became a "disputable matter." In VV.25-29, Paul is saying not to worry about it. You can't know and an idol is not a thing anyways. Again, this is not about the Lev. 11 dietary restrictions.

1 Tim. 4 -- Paul qualifies the meats from which people will improperly command to abstain as "sanctified by the word of God and prayer." Where does the word of God sanctify meats? Lev. 11 (and Deut. 14)! Unclean meats are not sanctified by the word of God and no amount of praying will do anything about it. Keep in mind at the time of this writing, there were no other written, assembled Scriptures. And Paul didn't know he was writing "letters of the Bible." In the end days, people will teach not to eat even clean meats. They already had a problem with this in the first century (cf., Rom. 14 and the vegetarians there). The context is teachings of men, not God. Abstaining from marriage is a teaching of man. Abstaining from clean meats sanctified by the word of God is a teaching of man. Can you think of any modern day "church" that teaches these things as commands of God? I can!

Oh, you forgot a couple!

Acts 10 -- Peter's vision is about people only. There is no lesson about diet here. The evidence? When Peter retells the story twice in the coming chapters, he provides for us the correct interpretation: Gentiles are now cleansed by the Holy Spirit after coming to faith. He never once mentions anything about dietary restrictions. When he later tells his Jewish brethren in Jerusalem the same story, they all shout praises about the Gentiles now being cleansed. Not one of them responds about dietary restrictions. Odd right, seeing as how this would have turned their whole world upside down! But that's because no one interpreted it that way! Let's stick to the interpretation the NT writings provide instead of inserting our own which is foreign to the text.

Col. 2:16-17 -- The text never explicitly says the people weren't keeping these things. Read the entire chapter, none of it is about God's commands. What we see are a lot of probable references to asceticism and/or proto-gnosticism. Both were huge problems in the first century that had infiltrated both Judaism and Christianity. The Biblical holy days are feast days, to be celebrated in gladness with food and drink! Ascetics taught that such indulges were sinful. They abstained from food and drink, abstained from sex, lived in poverty, etc. Paul says not to be judged for these things because they are a shadow of the coming things and are the body of the Messiah! That's a good thing! They are intimately connected to Him and the events related to His first and second coming! In Col. 2:14, Paul explains that the Messiah took the charges against us (NOT the Law) to the cross, so don't let these ascetic heretics bring false charges against you!

Nowhere does Paul or anyone else come close to saying anything like: "Listen, we're gonna talk about clean and unclean meats from the Law. Now you've heard that you can't eat unclean meats. But I'm telling you they're wrong -- you can eat whatever you like! So bring home that pork roast from the market, gather Jew and Gentile around, and feast until your heart's content!"

:D
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#52
Rom. 14 -- All of Paul's statements must be understand within the context that he sets up and about the specific debate at hand, including Rom. 14:14. The issue influencing believers in the Roman community is likely meat sacrificed to idols, or possibly asceticism (or both?).
Contexts don't change principles: "nothing (no food) is unclean in itself." (Ro 14:14)
Principles stand on their own. . .and alone.


Nothing changes them. . .the subject is closed.
 
S

sparty-g

Guest
#53
And I've already explained this in another post, but here is some more supporting evidence about Paul:

2 Peter 3 says Paul's writings are difficult to understand, which unlearned people twist to their own destruction, and he warns about being carried away by the error of the lawless. He doesn't warn about being carried away by the error of those who keep the law! And how do we know in what way people were twisting and misunderstanding Paul? Simple, look at the accusations against him. In Acts 21, James says the false accusations against him were that he was teaching "all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs." (Acts 21:21, NIV). So James advises he make a public display at the Temple to show "there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law." (Acts 21:24, NIV). The same false accusations are demonstrated by certain Jews: “Fellow Israelites, help us! This is the man who teaches everyone everywhere against our people and our law and this place." (Acts 21:28). When Paul is arrested, he has to defend himself three times before Festus, Felix, and Jewish leaders in Rome, always pleading that he is obedient to the Law!


"And they [Paul's accusers] cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me. However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. -- Acts 24:13-15 (NIV)


Then Paul made his defense: “I have done nothing wrong against the Jewish law or against the temple or against Caesar.” -- Acts 25:8


Three days later he called together the local Jewish leaders. When they had assembled, Paul said to them: “My brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or against the customs of our ancestors, I was arrested in Jerusalem and handed over to the Romans. -- Acts 28:17 (NIV)

The only time the NT writings describe false accusations against Paul, it's always in the context of him teaching against the Law. Peter understood this since he was a witness to these things. How about we listen to Peter, who was a chief character witness of Paul's!
 
S

sparty-g

Guest
#54
Contexts don't change principles: "nothing (no food) is unclean in itself." (Ro 14:14)
Principles stand on their own. . .and alone.


Nothing changes them. . .the subject is closed.
It does when one's principles are based on personal interpretation and not what God has established in his Word.
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#55
Just a thought here........but if this is true.......that we do not have to obey commandments any longer because we are under Grace, then please explain this..........

The Apostle Paul and the numerous commandments he issued to the churches in his Epistles.

Which takes precedence? The commandments of Christ, or the commandments of Paul?

Just a few days ago a person on this Forum told me that we were no longer obligated to follow the commandments of Christ other than the specific to of "loving God, and loving our Neighbor."

Ok.

So, I took a look at some other threads, and this same person was going off on the idea of women pastors and quoting the commandments of Paul.

??????????

Is it just me? Seriously?

Anyway, just a thought.............
Why is it so hard for Gentile believers to understand that the Mosaic Law was not ever for them and that the Mosaic Law fulfilled when Christ Died and Rose again? This is Bible 101 Gentile peeps...
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#56
Elin said:
Contexts don't change principles: "nothing (no food) is unclean in itself." (Ro 14:14)
Principles stand on their own. . .and alone.


Nothing changes them. . .the subject is closed.
It does when one's principles are based on personal interpretation and not what God has established in his Word.
What is of personal interpretation in

"nothing (no food) is unclean in itself" (Ro 14:14)"

Those who argue with such Biblical statements reveal a lot.
 
Last edited:

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#57
Whew, here we go! Grab hold of something, it's gonna move quickly:

(I believe the problem with the common interpretations of these verses is that they don't consider the immediate context and they bring in opinions about matters foreign to the text. Then these verses are all used to justify each other, but you can't justify one passage by another misunderstood, de-contextualized passage. I will attempt to show what I believe to be the proper context for each. The result will be that none of the verses can be used to support each other. All of this is up for debate and I imagine this will start a firestorm!)

Mt. 15 -- The Messiah was addressing ritual hand-washing, which was a Pharisaical rule and not a command of God. V.15:10 must be understood in this context. He certainly didn't mean we can consume anything because that would include human flesh, blood, etc. And if He was teaching that we can consume anything, then He would have been in direct violation of God's Law. The evidence that He wasn't teaching against the Law: The Pharisees didn't immediately arrest Him! Also, 10-15 years later, Peter (who surely was a witness to this event) seems completely unaware of this "supposed teaching" that He can eat or drink whatever he likes (cf. Acts 10, and below). The Messiah here also chastises the Pharisees for putting aside the commands of God, but some today believe He Himself put aside the commands of God with this teaching? Huh? In Matt. 15:20, the Messiah provides the interpretation of his parable (and yes, V.15 calls it a parable, which are not often literal teachings): "These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man." Let's let the Messiah do the interpreting for us instead of creating our own interpretation.

Mark 7 -- Same story as above. V.19 is highly contested in terms of what is the best translation. The KJV renders it being about biological processes: "Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?" "Thus He declared" is not in any Greek manuscript. Even if it's best rendered as Him "declaring all foods clean," unclean meats were not considered food. Again, the evidence: The Pharisees didn't immediately arrest Him, and Peter clearly did not interpret it in this manner. Do we know better than Peter, who walked with the Messiah? The Messiah already provided the interpretation of this parable in Matt. 15.

Rom. 14 -- The specific issue causing disunity in the community is not the Lev. 11 dietary instructions. V1. says it's about disputable matters of opinion. When did the clear commands of God become disputable matters of opinion? Paul clearly defines it for us as vegetarians (V.2) and possibly those who abstain from wine (V.21) on one hand, and non-vegetarians and possibly wine drinkers on the other hand. All of Paul's statements must be understand within the context that he sets up and about the specific debate at hand, including Rom. 14:14. The issue influencing believers in the Roman community is likely meat sacrificed to idols, or possibly asceticism (or both?).

Heb. 9:10 -- Read the whole chapter. The context is priests and temple services from start to end, which include meat and drink offerings. This has nothing to do with what you, a non-priest outside of temple services and offerings, should eat or drink.

1 Cor. 8 -- The context is "eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols" (V.4). VV.8-9 are about this narrow aspect alone. This was a huge deal and caused some to become vegetarians, as indicated in Rom. 14. This is not about the Lev. 11 dietary restrictions.

1 Cor. 10 -- Same context as above: meat sacrificed to the altars of idols. Some people refused to purchase meat from the markets for fear it had been offered in pagan temple services. You could never know, so it became a "disputable matter." In VV.25-29, Paul is saying not to worry about it. You can't know and an idol is not a thing anyways. Again, this is not about the Lev. 11 dietary restrictions.

1 Tim. 4 -- Paul qualifies the meats from which people will improperly command to abstain as "sanctified by the word of God and prayer." Where does the word of God sanctify meats? Lev. 11 (and Deut. 14)! Unclean meats are not sanctified by the word of God and no amount of praying will do anything about it. Keep in mind at the time of this writing, there were no other written, assembled Scriptures. And Paul didn't know he was writing "letters of the Bible." In the end days, people will teach not to eat even clean meats. They already had a problem with this in the first century (cf., Rom. 14 and the vegetarians there). The context is teachings of men, not God. Abstaining from marriage is a teaching of man. Abstaining from clean meats sanctified by the word of God is a teaching of man. Can you think of any modern day "church" that teaches these things as commands of God? I can!

Oh, you forgot a couple!

Acts 10 -- Peter's vision is about people only. There is no lesson about diet here. The evidence? When Peter retells the story twice in the coming chapters, he provides for us the correct interpretation: Gentiles are now cleansed by the Holy Spirit after coming to faith. He never once mentions anything about dietary restrictions. When he later tells his Jewish brethren in Jerusalem the same story, they all shout praises about the Gentiles now being cleansed. Not one of them responds about dietary restrictions. Odd right, seeing as how this would have turned their whole world upside down! But that's because no one interpreted it that way! Let's stick to the interpretation the NT writings provide instead of inserting our own which is foreign to the text.

Col. 2:16-17 -- The text never explicitly says the people weren't keeping these things. Read the entire chapter, none of it is about God's commands. What we see are a lot of probable references to asceticism and/or proto-gnosticism. Both were huge problems in the first century that had infiltrated both Judaism and Christianity. The Biblical holy days are feast days, to be celebrated in gladness with food and drink! Ascetics taught that such indulges were sinful. They abstained from food and drink, abstained from sex, lived in poverty, etc. Paul says not to be judged for these things because they are a shadow of the coming things and are the body of the Messiah! That's a good thing! They are intimately connected to Him and the events related to His first and second coming! In Col. 2:14, Paul explains that the Messiah took the charges against us (NOT the Law) to the cross, so don't let these ascetic heretics bring false charges against you!

Nowhere does Paul or anyone else come close to saying anything like: "Listen, we're gonna talk about clean and unclean meats from the Law. Now you've heard that you can't eat unclean meats. But I'm telling you they're wrong -- you can eat whatever you like! So bring home that pork roast from the market, gather Jew and Gentile around, and feast until your heart's content!"

:D
Contexts don't change principles: "nothing (no food) is unclean in itself." (Ro 14:14)
Principles stand on their own. . .and alone.


Nothing changes them. . .the subject is closed.

It appears to me you are saying essentially the same thing! No more different than one in tenor and one in bass.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#58
Elin said:
sparty-g said:
Nowhere does Paul or anyone else come close to saying anything like: "Listen, we're gonna talk about clean and unclean meats from the Law. Now you've heard that you can't eat unclean meats. But I'm telling you they're wrong -- you can eat whatever you like! So bring home that pork roast from the market, gather Jew and Gentile around, and feast until your heart's content!"

:D
Contexts don't change principles: "nothing (no food) is unclean in itself." (Ro 14:14)

Principles stand on their own. . .and alone.


Nothing changes them. . .the subject is closed.
It appears to me you are saying essentially the same thing! No more different than one in tenor and one in bass.
Did I misunderstand his last paragraph, or did you?
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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#59
And I've already explained this in another post, but here is some
more supporting evidence about Paul:
And your supporting evidence about Paul has already been addressed in another post, here.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#60
Did I misunderstand his last paragraph, or did you?

It appears to me that both of you are saying in effect that abstinence should not be imposed on anyone; but no one should be criticized for following his conscience. If that is not the case please correct me.