Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,046
13,055
113
58
Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”
What Laws/commandments have you kept? What do you believe it means to "keep" His commandments and do you believe that you will qualify for heaven under those terms? If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer?
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
have you looked into the Greek of Rom 10:4?
T
if it is the end of the law in Rom 10:4 then it is the end of the Lord in Jam 5:11...
H
James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”



James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose(telos) of יהוה, that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”



telos

The word translated “end” is word#G5056, τέλος, telos, tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.


Lets look at places this word is used in the Konie Greek originals to get an idea of it meaning and context;


Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."


Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."


1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."


1 Peter 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith – the salvation of your souls."


If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away or at an end in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away or at an end in 1 Peter 1:9. Unless of course “telos” means the goal.


Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #G5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)


HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.


James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”



James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose(telos) of יהוה, that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”



1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end (telos) of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”


1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the goal (telos) of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief.”


Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)


HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.


Romans 6:22, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end (telos) everlasting life.”


Romans 6:22, “But now, having been set free from sin, and having become servants of Yah, you have your fruit resulting in set-apartness, and the goal (telos); everlasting life.”


Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."


Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."


The word is used in the sense of the end result, the goal, the outcome, not in the sense of the obliteration of the Law…
This word study confirms what Jesus said.

Matthew 5:13 to 20 NIV
Jesus saying he came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
 
Last edited:

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
Stupid 5 minute rule
I don't use single verses because they can be misused. I put them in context with surrounding context.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
What Laws/commandments have you kept? What do you believe it means to "keep" His commandments and do you believe that you will qualify for heaven under those terms? If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer?
To keep thethe law first you have to know the 613 rulesrules of the law scattered through the Torah. They are impossible to keep. Here is the list and discussion about them. It is best for us to know what we are talking about when saying "the law".

List of the 613 laws in the Torah
http://www.gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html

Discussion about the 613 laws in the Torah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

For some reason you have to cut and paste links to use them now. Somehow clicking on the link doesn't work any more!





 
Last edited:

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,046
13,055
113
58
To keep the law first you have to know the 613 rules of the law scattered through the Torah. They are impossible to keep.
We have all failed at this (Romans 3:23). In John 7:19, speaking to the Jews, Jesus said - Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?





 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,046
13,055
113
58
What Laws/commandments have you kept? What do you believe it means to "keep" His commandments and do you believe that you will qualify for heaven under those terms? If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer?
Still waiting for an answer Shamah...
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
Still waiting for an answer Shamah...
He has already answered these questions over and over in the last year and you have ignored it. He knows you will just ignore him again.

Fortunately there will be no such questions from God in the first resurrection. Maybe from the accuser, but not God. His people will be looking at the ground with dirty garments in silence. But in the first resurrection the Father will have already deemed those resurrected "well done good and Faithful servant". So the accuser will once again be denied its scalp and the filthy clothes will be removed and replaced with clean clothes.

Zech. 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.


I understand your frustration, I don't share it. He only posts scriptures for the most part, and it is the scriptures themselves which anger you and your friends so much.

But as Jesus said, Mark 13: 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Even so, may the Word which became Flesh be with Shamah, and anyone else who puts their hands to the plow.
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,282
57
48
this is a silly argument, there is nothing in me(Flesh) that can keep the law, only by God(Spirit in me) do i walk the law and the works of it. its that simple.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,046
13,055
113
58
He has already answered these questions over and over in the last year and you have ignored it. He knows you will just ignore him again.
Do you need to speak for him? I don't recall him answering these questions before. Maybe he can share with me the posts where he has answered my questions before and I have ignored him. I'm really not interested in your biased opinions or your deluded doctrine.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
this is a silly argument, there is nothing in me(Flesh) that can keep the law, only by God(Spirit in me) do i walk the law and the works of it. its that simple.
So you are saying that it is impossible for you not to kill people, or steal, unless Jesus first gives you His Spirit?
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,282
57
48
So you are saying that it is impossible for you not to kill people, or steal, unless Jesus first gives you His Spirit?
common man, you just need to read the bible. you will have a flesh with the sin nature till the day you die, it will always want to conform to the world and sin. when you are born again you have the Spirit of God in you, and as you grow in the spirit by that word so does the desires of the spirit in your life. naturally making you want to conform to God, the law, and the works of the Spirit. but you will always have that flesh till God gives you the new body.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
common man, you just need to read the bible. you will have a flesh with the sin nature till the day you die, it will always want to conform to the world and sin. when you are born again you have the Spirit of God in you, and as you grow in the spirit by that word so does the desires of the spirit in your life. naturally making you want to conform to God, the law, and the works of the Spirit. but you will always have that flesh till God gives you the new body.
Is that a yes or a no to the question I asked?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Yeah accuser....what name did I call you...? Jesus called your kind names...so did John the Baptist...you know...lawyers and Pharisees that peddled a law keeping self saving false gosple ........
I have never said the Law or keeoing it saves, as a matter of fact I have said many times the Law does not save, yet we are to keep/guard His commands. I have also told you many times I have broken the Law this is not motivation to reject His ways, His mercy is motivation to turn back to Him and seek to do His will.

the pharisees made their own laws;

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 15:3-9, “But He answering, said to them, “Why do you also transgress the command of YHWH because of your tradition? For YHWH has commanded, saying, ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me has been dedicated, is certainly released from respecting his father or mother.’ So you have nullified the command of YHWH by your tradition."Hypocrites! Well did Isayah (29:13-14*) prophesy of you, saying: These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

Yah writes His Law on the heart:

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ezekiel 36:26-28, "A new heart, will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments, and do them. And you will dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you will be My people, and I will be your Father."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 10:16, "“This is the covenant that I shall make with them after those days, says [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], giving My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
What Laws/commandments have you kept? What do you believe it means to "keep" His commandments and do you believe that you will qualify for heaven under those terms? If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer?
One yes I have sinned and do at times, yet sin does not rule my life as it used to.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I write these things to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father: Yahshua Messiah, the Righteous; and He is the sacrifice of atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

This is no reason for accusation, not saying you are, but another member here when I said this quoted it in big bold letters like he was exposing me, all humans have sinned, this does noit alter or demolish YHWH righteous standard. As to what Laws, at times I have kept all that apply to me and this is not picking and choosing, there are Laws for the High Priest, Kings, Judges, women, men, etc. There are also times I have sinned. If the Messiah asked me I could not tell Him yes or no for sure, in reality any who have committed sin fall short, I have committed sin, so based upon my own worth it would clearly be a no, however I would ask for mercy and leave the choice to Him.

This does not in anyway abolish His Commands.

I can be attacked here ocer and over it does nto change that fact He said keeping His Commands is loving Him:

[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Honestly it seems many people hate His Commands or they would not slander anyone who would dare promote them.
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
DO you guys freak out when Paul said he is subject to the Law and keeps it?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

DO you freak out when it says Zach and Eli kept His Law?

Luke 1:5-6,
In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

DO you freak out when it says Abraham kept His Law?


Genesis 26:4-5, “And I shall increase your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I shall give all these lands to your seed. And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torah.”

and no I am not saying I am as good as these people, I showing the Book says they were obedient to His COmmands, so are they self justified lawyer pharisees?
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”


John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”
Does Jesus have commandments that are different than the law of Moses?

Is there like the 'law of Christ' that is different from the 'law of Moses'?

Are these commandments that Jesus talks about in John 14:15 necessary to keep in order to have eternal life?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,748
6,332
113
DO you guys freak out when Paul said he is subject to the Law and keeps it?

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."


Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

DO you freak out when it says Zach and Eli kept His Law?

Luke 1:5-6,
In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

DO you freak out when it says Abraham kept His Law?


Genesis 26:4-5, “And I shall increase your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I shall give all these lands to your seed. And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torah.”

and no I am not saying I am as good as these people, I showing the Book says they were obedient to His COmmands, so are they self justified lawyer pharisees?



many translations render Paul saying " in my mind, I want to serve God's law ". but you do not want to acknowledge that, because it does not push Hebrew roots/ sda propaganda.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
many translations render Paul saying " in my mind, I want to serve God's law ". but you do not want to acknowledge that, because it does not push Hebrew roots/ sda propaganda.
Well even though you love to label a kind of sterotype unto guilt tyoe thing, you are correct in the translation, however that means he sets his mind to keep the commands or he wants to keep them.

A numbder of thimes he promotes the Commands:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy, so I (Paul) worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 7:19, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of Yah?"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), YHWH; for it is not subject to the Law of YHWH, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please YHWH."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:12, "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ephesians 6:2-3, "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise: That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."[/FONT]
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Does Jesus have commandments that are different than the law of Moses?

Is there like the 'law of Christ' that is different from the 'law of Moses'?

Are these commandments that Jesus talks about in John 14:15 necessary to keep in order to have eternal life?
that statement conflates John 14:15 and Mat 19:17 but they are both His words so no real issue IMO.

Well we would have to look at the entire word, particularly what He said. To sum it up:

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

Yahshua is now High Priest, He is the mediator:


1 Timothy 2:5, "For One is YHWH; and One Mediator between YHWH and men: the Man, Yahshua Messiah."


1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus."

we sacrifice by accepting His blood

all judgement is givein to His hands:


John 5:21-30,21 “For as the Father raises the dead and makes alive, even so the Son makes alive whom He wishes."22 “For the Father judges no one, but has given all the judgment to the Son,"23 that all should value the Son even as they value the Father. He who does not value the Son does not value the Father who sent Him."24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of Elohim. And those having heard shall live."26 “For as the Father possesses life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son to possess life in Himself,"27 and He has given Him authority also to do judgment, because He is the Son of Aḏam."28 “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice,"29 and shall come forth – those who have practiced righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practised evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment."30 “Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me."

He gave the perfect example;



John 13:15, “For I (Jesus) gave you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.”




1 Peter 2:21, “This is, in fact, what you were called to do, because Christ also suffered for you and left an example for you to follow in His steps.”





Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the (intent of the) Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."


John 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

He gave perfect example, will we ever be perfect like Him? No Same as will we even walk perfectly and never sin not even once? No

Yet this is still the standard, goal and example we are to seek by His guidance and Spirit.





 
Last edited: