Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Just wanna be like Jesus.
You can, but it is not automatic.

God, the Father of Jesus tells us in Hebrew 1:8-9 why He loves Jesus, His only begotten Son so much. He says it is because Jesus loved righteousness, and hated iniquity.

I too want to be like Jesus and so every day I ask myself: Have I got to that point where I "hate" all iniquity, and I "love" all things that are righteous? When I can say 'yes' to this question without blinking, then I will be close to being like Jesus.
I hope that day comes sooner than later.

I hope that for you too.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
According to the bible pal.....Maybe your creed loving anti-biblical stance fuela your ignorance of the truth, but that does not change the fact that baptizo means to immerse and equals being put UNDER THE GROUND.....I suppose when one dies in your family you just chunk them on the ground and toss a handful of dirt on them......good luck....there is but one means of biblical baptism.....and pouring or sprinkling does not match scripture nor the word itself.....
Your reply was worse than the rude question posed to you. We all need to be more Christian in our communications. BTW this is a Christian forum.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
You can, but it is not automatic.

God, the Father of Jesus tells us in Hebrew 1:8-9 why He loves Jesus, His only begotten Son so much. He says it is because Jesus loved righteousness, and hated iniquity.

I too want to be like Jesus and so every day I ask myself: Have I got to that point where I "hate" all iniquity, and I "love" all things that are righteous? When I can say 'yes' to this question without blinking, then I will be close to being like Jesus.
I hope that day comes sooner than later.

I hope that for you too.
jesus showed you how, when you love all people. And hate yourself

thats more important is it not, in order to do what you are saying, my focus would have to be continually on self, how am I doing, am I good today? Am I bad today, what do I have to do to be better,

jesus never worried of these things, he saw people and focused on them in all he did, i pay every day i do this more and more, my life is in christs hands, my needs are met, i need to serve others and meet their needs, that is how we bcome christlike
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works, which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit. It takes a living faith to produce good works, just as it takes a living tree to produce fruit.

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
So you would say if someone claims to have faith, but has no evidential works, then we can suppose that that person has a dead faith? IOW they were never saved in the first place? Right?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
God knew how all the major translations and versions would turn it and there is no error, only misunderstanding. Your bible is fact infallible as it is the Word of God.
Not according to some on this forum. They tell me the KJV has many errors, that does not sound like infallible.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,315
16,302
113
69
Tennessee
Not according to some on this forum. They tell me the KJV has many errors, that does not sound like infallible.
I stopped listening to 'they' a long time ago. KJV has zero errors and was written exactly as the Holy Spirit directed the scribes to write while utilizing each writer's unique style and perspective.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
ROFL
When I researched it many years ago there was a word about dying cloth and another word for washing feet. The former implies immersion but the latter implies pouring or sprinkling. Therefore I reject your immersion only version. Many denominations reject it as well.
Endocsopy, I usually side with you on matters that have to do with the saving process, but in this case of immersion, I have to side with Econ. Immersion is the only method that reconciles all aspects of baptism and its symbolism.

I believe men have changed the ordinance of baptism from immersion to sprinkling and others for their purposes (sometimes for the lack of water). It does not make it right with God. Immersion is how Jesus was baptized, and we need to follow his example.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
God knew how all the major translations and versions would turn it and there is no error, only misunderstanding. Your bible is fact infallible as it is the Word of God.
Amen!, preach it tourist
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
You then misunderstand the issue. The original language of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Judean Greek are infallible but translations are done by fallible men. They use a group to keep errors at a minimum but they creep in anyway.
The only issue is: regardless of the reason it does not seem to some people on this forum that my KJV bible is infallible.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
OK, if we can't believe the bible then that doesn't leave much to believe in does it? If what you say is true then I'm sure that if you tried real hard you could find an error or discrepancy in any version or translation. How do you really know for sure that if there was an error that the scribe that made the so-called error was not directed by the Holy Spirit to do so.

If God can make a donkey talk, (Num22:21-38), God can surely use an error from a scribe any
way He wishes.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
mark 4

3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.


______________

14 The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

called but not chosen <- no saving faith
not born again.... no root

their hearts were not transformed but rejected the seed
they would reject Him the moment they hear of the truth

____________

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves
, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

again no root... not born again
no enduring faith

trials and tribulations were enough to prove they did not have a saving faith

______________

18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.


no saving faith... they turn from the knowledge of God to jump back into a life of living in and justifying sin and worldly pleasures instead of accepting they are wicked and need Him

(like the reprobate)
never born again

Romans 1
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

____________



20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.


theeeese are born again sons/daughters of God
Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


and unlike demons who know of Him but have no faith IN Him

there is fruit due to being rooted IN Him

(born again by grace through faith.... not works)

1 peter


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

we are those who no doubt continue in the faith

1 john 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
not those who fall away into unbelief






(posted this in another thread while back.... it applies here too... we are saved by grace through faith not of works.... when we are born again we are rooted IN Christ... and we are those who were called AND chosen.... not the reprobate... not those who dont believe... not those who believe in a false gospel.... we are saved already and we are those who He will in no wise cast out)


and endo

we arent saved after we produce fruit


or works


fruit is a result of being rooted in Christ

plain and simple
1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
___________
James 2:10
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

_______________

romans 3

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe
: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
____________
Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,972
4,586
113
So are you saying my bible is not infallible? I thought some Christians depend on that saying, that the bible is infallible.
The only Bible that is Infallible is the ORIGINAL WRITINGS OF the Prophets and the Apostles as THEY were Given INSPIRATION by the Holy Spirit.

THE KJV IS NOT AN ACTUAL TRANSLATION BUT A PARAPHASE, and as such, it could have some errors in it. The Original Tanslators openly they is what they did:


{QUOTE} Excerpt from the Orignal 1611 Preface of the KJV

(and Saint Jerome affirmeth as much) that the Seventie were Interpreters, they were not Prophets; they did many things well, as learned men; but yet as men they stumbled and fell, one while through oversight, another while through ignorance, yea, sometimes they may be noted to adde to the Originall, and sometimes to take from it;
. . .
Yet before we end, we must answere a third cavill and objection of theirs against us, for altering and amending our Translations [sic] so oft; wherein truely they deale hardly, and strangely with us. {The very same thing you do to MODERN Translations.} For to whom ever was it imputed for a fault (by such as were wise) to goe over that which hee had done, and to amend it where he saw cause? . . .
. . .
Yet for all that, as nothing is begun and perfited at the same time, and the later thoughts are thought to be the wiser: so, if we building upon their foundation that went before us, and being holpen by their labours, doe endevour to make that better which they left so good; no man, we are sure, hath cause to mislike us; they, we persuade our selves, if they were alive, would thanke us. . . .
. . .
the same will shine as gold more brightly, being rubbed and polished; also if any thing be halting, or superfluous, or not so agreeable to the originall, the same may bee corrected, and the trueth set in place. . . .
. . .
. . .
Now to the later we answere; that wee doe not deny, nay wee affirme and avow, that the very meanes {poorest} translation of the Bible in English, set foorth by men of our profession (for wee have seene none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God. . . .
. . .
But the difference that appeareth betweene our Translations, and our often correcting of them, is the thing that wee are specially charged with; let us see therefore whether they themselves bee without fault this way, (if it be to be counted a fault, to correct) and whether they bee fit men to throw stones at us: But it is high time to leave them, and to shew in briefe what wee proposed to our selves, and what course we held in this our perusall and survay of the Bible. Truly (good Christian Reader) wee never thought from the beginning, that we should neede to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, (for then the imputation of Sixtus had bene true in some sort, that our people had bene fed with gall of Dragons in stead of wine, with whey in stead of milke, but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principall good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath bene our indeavour, that our marke. . . . {END QUOTE}

{ That makes it a PARAPHRASE and not an actual Translation from the original languages. }


We believe that the whole Bible in the originals is therefore without error. We believe that all the Scriptures center about the Lord Jesus Christ in His person and work in His first and second coming, and hence that no portion, even of the Old Testament, is properly read, or understood, until it leads to Him. We also believe that all the Scriptures were designed for our practical instruction (Mark 12:26, 36; 13:11; Luke 24:27, 44; John 5:39; Acts 1:16; 17:2–3; 18:28; 26:22–23; 28:23; Rom. 15:4; 1 Cor. 2:13; 10:11; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:21).



We believe in the plenary and verbal inspiration and authority of all sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments as the divinely inspired Word of God and submit to them as the only infallible authority in all matters of faith and practice, the original documents of which are inerrant as to fact and infallible as to truth.


 
Last edited:

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
OK, if we can't believe the bible then that doesn't leave much to believe in does it?
Search the Bible and it will lead you to redemption and salvation.

Definition:

Biblical infallibility
is the belief that what the Bible says regarding matters of faith and Christian practice is wholly useful and true. It is the "belief that the Bible is completely trustworthy as a guide to salvation and the life of faith and will not fail to accomplish its purpose.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,972
4,586
113
The only Bible that is Infallible is the ORIGINAL WRITINGS OF the Prophets and the Apostles as THEY were Given INSPIRATION by the Holy Spirit.

THE KJV IS NOT AN ACTUAL TRANSLATION BUT A PARAPHASE, and as such, it could have some errors in it. The Original Tanslators openly they is what they did:


{QUOTE} Excerpt from the Orignal 1611 Preface of the KJV

(and Saint Jerome affirmeth as much) that the Seventie were Interpreters, they were not Prophets; they did many things well, as learned men; but yet as men they stumbled and fell, one while through oversight, another while through ignorance, yea, sometimes they may be noted to adde to the Originall, and sometimes to take from it;
. . .
Yet before we end, we must answere a third cavill and objection of theirs against us, for altering and amending our Translations [sic] so oft; wherein truely they deale hardly, and strangely with us. {The very same thing you do to MODERN Translations.} For to whom ever was it imputed for a fault (by such as were wise) to goe over that which hee had done, and to amend it where he saw cause? . . .
. . .
Yet for all that, as nothing is begun and perfited at the same time, and the later thoughts are thought to be the wiser: so, if we building upon their foundation that went before us, and being holpen by their labours, doe endevour to make that better which they left so good; no man, we are sure, hath cause to mislike us; they, we persuade our selves, if they were alive, would thanke us. . . .
. . .
the same will shine as gold more brightly, being rubbed and polished; also if any thing be halting, or superfluous, or not so agreeable to the originall, the same may bee corrected, and the trueth set in place. . . .
. . .
. . .
Now to the later we answere; that wee doe not deny, nay wee affirme and avow, that the very meanes {poorest} translation of the Bible in English, set foorth by men of our profession (for wee have seene none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God. . . .
. . .
But the difference that appeareth betweene our Translations, and our often correcting of them, is the thing that wee are specially charged with; let us see therefore whether they themselves bee without fault this way, (if it be to be counted a fault, to correct) and whether they bee fit men to throw stones at us: But it is high time to leave them, and to shew in briefe what wee proposed to our selves, and what course we held in this our perusall and survay of the Bible. Truly (good Christian Reader) wee never thought from the beginning, that we should neede to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, (for then the imputation of Sixtus had bene true in some sort, that our people had bene fed with gall of Dragons in stead of wine, with whey in stead of milke, but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principall good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath bene our indeavour, that our marke. . . . {END QUOTE}

{ That makes it a PARAPHRASE and not an actual Translation from the original languages. }


We believe that the whole Bible in the originals is therefore without error. We believe that all the Scriptures center about the Lord Jesus Christ in His person and work in His first and second coming, and hence that no portion, even of the Old Testament, is properly read, or understood, until it leads to Him. We also believe that all the Scriptures were designed for our practical instruction (Mark 12:26, 36; 13:11; Luke 24:27, 44; John 5:39; Acts 1:16; 17:2–3; 18:28; 26:22–23; 28:23; Rom. 15:4; 1 Cor. 2:13; 10:11; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:21).



We believe in the plenary and verbal inspiration and authority of all sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments as the divinely inspired Word of God and submit to them as the only infallible authority in all matters of faith and practice, the original documents of which are inerrant as to fact and infallible as to truth.



Here is Dr. Charles Stanley STATEMENT ABOUT THE BIBLE:


  1. The Scriptures
    We believe that the entire Bible is the inspired Word of God and that men of God “were moved by the Holy Spirit” to write the very words of Scripture. The Bible is therefore without error (inerrant) in its original manuscripts. God has supernaturally preserved the Bible, and it is the sole and final authority for faith and life, providing encouragement, guidance, comfort and instruction for training in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:20-21).




AND HERE IS WHERE YOU FIND THE ORIGINAL 1611 PREFACE TO THE KJV.

Preface to the King James Version 1611, Part 1 of 10
 
Last edited:

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
Psalm12:6
“The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times.”

Hebrews4:12
"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Do all Bibles not say 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved' and 'whoever puts their trust in Him will not be put to shame' ?
Yes, but some overemphasize grace and faith are the only saving principals, and downgrade the good works aspect of salvation.
So there is a difference. Why?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
It would be nice for someone in a position of authority to absolutely state what bible version or translation is the only one that does not contain seemingly minute errors to the untrained eye. It's very hard to be united in Christ if everyone uses the wrong bible or is not fluent in Aramaic, Hebrew, or Greek or has a PHD in biblical studies.

In every major version of the bible it states that it is possible to know who God is and what He is about without even reading the Word. Perhaps we should all go with that instead of studying a bible that everyone finds fault with in interpretation and practical application in how they conduct their lives.
Wouldn't that be interesting to have live Peter, James, and John, and Paul type people, who were receiving revelation from God to interpret the scriptures per what Jesus wanted to be said and how he knows what it takes for someone to be saved.

That would solve our problems.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Well tourist, if we used all the material available and let the Holy Spirit guide us we won't worry about any transcription errors. There are single instances of Bible references that I still can't consolidate into the whole. That doesn't worry me.



Well if we could not have live apostles and prophets to guide us, this is also a solution to our problem. However, even on this forum we see opposite sides of the discussion profess that they are both led by the HG. So, it seems possible to have the HG and still have problems.

I look forward to Jesus coming a second time to clear up all misunderstandings, or at least a return to live apostles and prophets with authority to guide people by direct revelation from Jesus Christ.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes, but some overemphasize grace and faith are the only saving principals, and downgrade the good works aspect of salvation.
So there is a difference. Why?

Who is downgrading works? Other than works have no basis on WHY a person is saved.

The problem is those who puff up works, not those who downgrade.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Wouldn't that be interesting to have live Peter, James, and John, and Paul type people, who were receiving revelation from God to interpret the scriptures per what Jesus wanted to be said and how he knows what it takes for someone to be saved.

That would solve our problems.
ya think so? The had them and it did not solve problems, yes many came to christ and many churches were started, but they were still killd by the religious people who thought thay were against God.

As jess said, a wickd and adulterous generation seeks a sign and non will be given,