Now That We're Saved, What's The Law Got To Do With It?

[followjesus]

One question for everyone that says the Law is not valid.
Why if this is the case, do you still follow that Homosexuality is wrong?

not really addressed to me, but good point. people quote scriptures like this to support thier badly mistaken assertion that the Law is worthless.

Galatians 4:9-11 "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."


theres no discernment when people Just throw out a verse or two. The Mosaic Law was always designed from the start, not to save mankind and offer eternal Life, thats not found in the Law, its design was to show the world beginning at israel, what is righteous, and what is Sin, or what is Life and what is death. the Law is sort of Like the tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil. the thing is we have already eaten the fruit from Birth, we inherited death from adam. thats why Humans die, because of Our sinful nature, were slaves. the Law came to show us that truth that yes were sinners, no matter How hard we try we arent going to be perfect according to the Mosaic Law.

right and wrong is taught by the Law, the Only weak and miserable principles in it are things Like " trying to gain forgiveness now, by sacrificing Our spotless animal as the Jews did. or trying to be washed Clean by cerimonial water. Or reminding ourselves of Gods goodness by remembering the seasons and sabbaths and days and moon festivals harvest feasts ect. those things are no Longer relevant to a Christian, but it doesnt make the Law void and useless even those things help us understand what Jesus did many degrees. such as the passover, that teaches us what Jesus did to cause death to passover us, it helps us make sense of His sacrifice...because the Law teaches us about His sacrifice Long beforehand. through the sacrifice of spotless Lambs of atonements and scapegoats, sacrificial system of old, explains what Jesus sacrifice is ect. nothing in the word of God is no longer applicable its ll of Great GREAT value to a child of the Living God the Lw teaches as much of God the Fathers goodness to us as any place in scripture, it just needs to be understood from the Gospel backwards so that were not trying to gain forgiveness by offering burnt sacrifices or fellowship offerings or drink offerings ect.

the Morality of the Mosaic Law is as you point out there, its absolutely essential to understand the new testament. this is One small example that repeats itself on every subject. ill use your example " the new testament says " sexual immorality is sin"

So what use is the Law? we need it because otherwise we wouldnt Know what is moral sexually and what isnt, we learn that inplaces in the law Like this

Leviticus 18:6-27 "None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD. 7The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness. 9The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.

10The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, eventheir nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness. 11The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 12Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman. 13Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman. 14Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt. 15Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 16Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness. 17Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.18Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.
19Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness. 20Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 21And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. 23Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

24Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

26Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27(For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled


Now if we toss out the explaoination of what is moral and not moral we have only fooled ourselves like so many who willingly toss out the Law of God do. without the Law there is no consciousness of whats right, and whats wrong, whats sin and whats Godly. i understand a baby christian not knowing the Law, i used to a long time ago be afraid to even study it much intil i understood its proper place and use. it goes WITH the Gospel. and if we simply follow the Gospel. then the Laws right requirements are truly met in us. for instance if a person follows Jesus saying " rid your Hearts and mind of Lust towards others.....then all of the sexual immorality stuff kinda just happens naturally. if we dont lust after women that arent Our Wife....well we arent gonna be sleeping with them. if we Understand homosexuality is abominable to God, surely were not gonna be like the worlds and tell people " im just what God made me so i was born homosexual"

thats the worlds way to explain why its okay for us to go ahead and live for our own pleasure. part of the worlds design a big part is to send out false doctrines that direct people away from morality according to the Only God. and promise a magical spirit that works us like a puppet and removes our choice and effort. sorry for the Length. its Just A REALLY damaging thing if people accept the voices saying " the Law is useless" based on a scripture or 2 from paul, because the Law contains the morality of God whats right in Gods eyes? and also its not unclear about sin and death being intertwined, nor is it unclear about How harshly God looks upon those things Hes forbidden from the start......Life and death is at stake only now because of Jesus and the Gospel.....were talkiing eternal Life v eternal damnation.


were not perfect because our Knowledge isnt yet, were certainly not to curse the Law of God and attempt to make it irrelevant for Gods People it has many important functions.

 

[Rainrider]

not really addressed to me, but good point. people quote scriptures like this to support thier badly mistaken assertion that the Law is worthless.

Galatians 4:9-11 "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."


theres no discernment when people Just throw out a verse or two. The Mosaic Law was always designed from the start, not to save mankind and offer eternal Life, thats not found in the Law, its design was to show the world beginning at israel, what is righteous, and what is Sin, or what is Life and what is death. the Law is sort of Like the tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil. the thing is we have already eaten the fruit from Birth, we inherited death from adam. thats why Humans die, because of Our sinful nature, were slaves. the Law came to show us that truth that yes were sinners, no matter How hard we try we arent going to be perfect according to the Mosaic Law.

right and wrong is taught by the Law, the Only weak and miserable principles in it are things Like " trying to gain forgiveness now, by sacrificing Our spotless animal as the Jews did. or trying to be washed Clean by cerimonial water. Or reminding ourselves of Gods goodness by remembering the seasons and sabbaths and days and moon festivals harvest feasts ect. those things are no Longer relevant to a Christian, but it doesnt make the Law void and useless even those things help us understand what Jesus did many degrees. such as the passover, that teaches us what Jesus did to cause death to passover us, it helps us make sense of His sacrifice...because the Law teaches us about His sacrifice Long beforehand. through the sacrifice of spotless Lambs of atonements and scapegoats, sacrificial system of old, explains what Jesus sacrifice is ect. nothing in the word of God is no longer applicable its ll of Great GREAT value to a child of the Living God the Lw teaches as much of God the Fathers goodness to us as any place in scripture, it just needs to be understood from the Gospel backwards so that were not trying to gain forgiveness by offering burnt sacrifices or fellowship offerings or drink offerings ect.

the Morality of the Mosaic Law is as you point out there, its absolutely essential to understand the new testament. this is One small example that repeats itself on every subject. ill use your example " the new testament says " sexual immorality is sin"

So what use is the Law? we need it because otherwise we wouldnt Know what is moral sexually and what isnt, we learn that inplaces in the law Like this

Leviticus 18:6-27 "None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD. 7The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness. 9The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.

10The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, eventheir nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness. 11The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 12Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman. 13Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman. 14Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt. 15Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 16Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness. 17Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.18Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.
19Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness. 20Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 21And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. 23Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

24Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

26Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27(For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled


Now if we toss out the explaoination of what is moral and not moral we have only fooled ourselves like so many who willingly toss out the Law of God do. without the Law there is no consciousness of whats right, and whats wrong, whats sin and whats Godly. i understand a baby christian not knowing the Law, i used to a long time ago be afraid to even study it much intil i understood its proper place and use. it goes WITH the Gospel. and if we simply follow the Gospel. then the Laws right requirements are truly met in us. for instance if a person follows Jesus saying " rid your Hearts and mind of Lust towards others.....then all of the sexual immorality stuff kinda just happens naturally. if we dont lust after women that arent Our Wife....well we arent gonna be sleeping with them. if we Understand homosexuality is abominable to God, surely were not gonna be like the worlds and tell people " im just what God made me so i was born homosexual"

thats the worlds way to explain why its okay for us to go ahead and live for our own pleasure. part of the worlds design a big part is to send out false doctrines that direct people away from morality according to the Only God. and promise a magical spirit that works us like a puppet and removes our choice and effort. sorry for the Length. its Just A REALLY damaging thing if people accept the voices saying " the Law is useless" based on a scripture or 2 from paul, because the Law contains the morality of God whats right in Gods eyes? and also its not unclear about sin and death being intertwined, nor is it unclear about How harshly God looks upon those things Hes forbidden from the start......Life and death is at stake only now because of Jesus and the Gospel.....were talkiing eternal Life v eternal damnation.


were not perfect because our Knowledge isnt yet, were certainly not to curse the Law of God and attempt to make it irrelevant for Gods People it has many important functions.

I think you will find that there is no real sound answer ever going to come from the Faith only folks. In answering this, they arre forced to show they follow some parts of the Law, or that they don't walk in the Spirit at all.

 

[Grace777x70]

The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus will reveal to us that homosexuality is not of God. The law is the strength of sin and it reveals sin. The law of Christ reveals Life.

The law which referring directly to the 10 commandments is called the ministry of condemnation. The law of the spirit is called the ministry of righteousness.

The law is a manifestation of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil brought into this world which is why this "law" is written on the gentiles hearts as Paul says in Romans 2. God expounded on this law when He gave the law to Moses for the Jewish people.

Christians are to live by eating from the tree of Life which is Christ Himself. Christians have died to the law and been released from the law "so that" we could be joined to Another - to Him! Christ our Lord.

Romans 7:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

In order to bear real fruit for God - we need to have nothing to do with the law now that we are in Christ.

We live by the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus,

The law of faith ( the law of Moses is NOT of faith )

The law of love,

The law of liberty in Christ Jesus,

The law of Christ Himself. His life is all that we need to live by now.

We don't need to "obey" Lev. 18:21 to know not to have sex with animals - all the laws/principles of Christ Himself will stop that now that we are in Christ and He is in us in the new creation - joined as one spirit for all eternity.

 

[followjesus]

Actually make sure you get that right, God in exodus 19 intended Israel to live in the same Covenant that he promised Abraham. IT was Israel not God who established a different covenant.

Paul is clear in Galatians 4 that the old covenant was the work of men:

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

take careful note that Paul says that the covenant on mt sinai was bondage likened to Agar. Agar was the Egyptian servant who was a slave. Abraham slept with her to bring the promise of God. But the promise of God does not need men to bring it about. Thus it was Abraham's actions with Hagar that was old covenant, not Gods promise which was new covenant.

Old covenant is not a dispensation but a reaction of the people.

Adam and Eve putting fig leaves to cover their nakedness was old covenant. God clothing them with skins and promising a messiah was new covenant.

The old and new covenant have always been around from the very beginning. They are two reactions to Gods promises.

Abraham learned the lesson and believed/Had faith in God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

But Israel when offered to enter into this same promise they said:

Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

They thought God needed their help and thus God then humbles himself and meets them where they are at and gives them the law in wrath that they might see that they have made a foolish reply yet they replied:

Exo 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

They did not understand that it is impossible to please God without faith as their Father Abraham learnt. They failed to cherish the promise and accept it as it was offered. God knew this as we see here:

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

God knew their hearts that without faith they were only going to stay slaves to sin and would not obey His law. He led them through the wilderness in the way He did to try an show them this very heart problem:

Deu 8:1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.
Deu 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.




But they did not get it, They after failure after failure still did not come to faith as it is written:

Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

They did not trust as Abraham did. God did not lead them into a works based covenant they rejected Gods covenant and chose to work for it which could never work. Gods desire for them then was:

Deu 10:15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
Deu_10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.








Notice again the farther was chosen, Abraham Isaac and Jacob had faith in God and this was the reason God chose them because they were the seed of Abraham in whom God had made promise. But they did not have right hearts like Abraham.

god predicts their continued rebellion based on that fact that they made a faulty covenant:

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.


It is the work of God to change the heart but they failed to see their need.

The problem is they rejected the covenant made with Abraham to have a covenant of works. God humbled himself and allowed it because He had promised Abraham to use his seed. But God tried to warn them constantly that unless they had faith and trusted Him they would never succeed.

Deu 4:31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

notice the covenant was different as I am sure you would agree.

they rejected the covenant made with Abraham and thus did not continue in it as it is written:

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.





So it is that God gave the law to show them their need and to show them and lead them to Christ who was with them as it is written:

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

God would have them look to Him for salvation not themselves.

The only reason they did not attain is not because of the law but because of the way in which they tried to covenant with God as it is written:

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

they did not have faith just as it says in Deut. They tried to work their way. Had they accepted the covenant made with Abraham they would not have been given the law. They would have not needed it because like Abraham they would have become the law themselves by the working of God by faith, as it is written of Abraham who did not have the law:

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

how so?

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

So then it is evident that the old covenant has always existed form the beginning so has the new. And the difference is how Men react to Gods promise. Some try to help God and that is old covenant. Others have faith and that is new covenant.

The difference is works vs faith. simple.

Israel chose the old covenant. God offered them the new covenant.

Actually make sure you get that right, God in exodus 19 intended Israel to live in the same Covenant that he promised Abraham. IT was Israel not God who established a different covenant.

not at all friend the two peoples of the covenant of abraham begin in Genesis

12:1-Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; ( israel) and thou shalt be a blessing:3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. ( all nations of the Gospel the Whole world ) One covenant 2 promises one to abrams blood descendants and One to all the earth through abrams seed who is Jesus. thios is the Law of the Mosaic, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
4So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; " (notice here that abraham believed and because HE BELIEVED God he obeyed God. its "Faith without works is dead" had abraham believed God, and then said well i believe so theres no need to actually obey Him.......things would look different. Faith ewquals works thats what faith is believing so much that we do. its that simple if faith doesnt change our Lives.....its not faith, could be a seedling, but it wont hold up against the storms to come. its not at all different with Jesus, he taught the same what you actually do because you have faith is what matters. following His word ( Matthew 7:24-27) its not about saying i believe its about actually believiong enough to repent of ourselves and follow jesus the Word of God.

when your seeing works based salvation in pauls writings hes not referring to righteousness and sin, hes talking about saved by the works of sacrificing animals, and observing special days and sabbaths or seasons or festivals. those things were like the gospel is to us. Jesus is all of those things Our sacrifice, His communion is our passover feast to observe, the things he taught us to actually do not just agree with but put into action, not because were strong enough but because we have received the Holy spirit. so many comments dsort of leave out the receiving of the spirit and Gods ability to give us power through His Word living in us to make us new creatures. the "works" come from the Power of God is us what we call His spirit living in us through Jesus. we receive the spirit because of obedience to Jesus see John 14-15.

i think some mistake the word Faith to mean like children believe in santa they believe He is real but they dont be good all year to get Presents. God is Like a bag of Money billions of dollars and someone you fully trust says " hey theres a bag with billions of dollars in it buried in the center of your back yard 3 feet down.........if you believe this of course youll get the shovel and go dig it up to possess it and use it, but if you just say " sure i believe its there...buuuut nah its too hard to dig 3 feet down" its a lack of Faith in the person who told you. faith without works has no value. even though the value is there, its useless.
Genesis 15:12-16 "And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. 13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 16But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. << the covenant with the chikdren of israel ( abrams offspring who would go into 400 years of captivity in egypt.)


Ive Learned that most all who spend thier time saying " dont work, not by works, do nothing rest in Grace ect...ect... they are those who are seeking to justify things in thoer life that they are aware are sinful and forbidden By Gods Word. so they then equate " sin and repentance and righteousness" to the terrible works of the Law.......thats not what paul is ever saying, His writings condemn the same things as the Law does. paul promises judgement and torment for those who continue on in sin. romans 2:5-11, galatians 5, ephesians 5 and on and on. he just wrote in a different style and is easy to misconstrue, only NOT if a person looks into the Law, then His writings make perfect sense. and so does the Gospel.

Christians who have a heart won by Jesus Christ, have not a single complaint about doing the Works, because He died to bring us to God and be included in the covenant. God doesnt change nor does He favor anyone. the same morality He demanded from israel, is the same He calls for from us today. Morality is morality itll never be okay with God to lie, Cheat, steal, kill, commit adultery, commit violence, fornication, to be Greedy or be idolatrous, rape, having another God or anything else He said in the Law regarding immorality. those things will kill those who live in those ways. it has everything to do with what we do, NOW Having Been Given everything we need to live upright Lives before God. Israel idnt get that supply, they were sinners by spirit trying to live Holy Lives......when a person comes to Jesus though, were promised newness of Life, new birth in the spirit <<<<<that is the Most power available to live right. today we try to use faith to get our own Gain and blessing, its meant to keep us because of Grace and teach us How to live right. teach us to repent of Sins in our Lives, and instead do the things of God......thats why paul wrote so much about new creations in Christ. because the gospel offers the Holy spirit.

Nothing Has changed about God, the gospel which brings His spirit will only ever change One thing...the persons Heart who receives it and a changed Heart is a changed Life actions and all. when a person accept Jesus Great suffering, thats plenty more than enough to commit Our Lives to Gods Way

 

[Rainrider]

The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus will reveal to us that homosexuality is not of God. The law is the strength of sin and it reveals sin. The law of Christ reveals Life.

The law which referring directly to the 10 commandments is called the ministry of condemnation. The law of the spirit is called the ministry of righteousness.

The law is a manifestation of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil brought into this world which is why this "law" is written on the gentiles hearts as Paul says in Romans 2. God expounded on this law when He gave the law to Moses for the Jewish people.

Christians are to live by eating from the tree of Life which is Christ Himself. Christians have died to the law and been released from the law "so that" we could be joined to Another - to Him! Christ our Lord.

Romans 7:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

In order to bear real fruit for God - we need to have nothing to do with the law now that we are in Christ.

We live by the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus,

The law of faith ( the law of Moses is NOT of faith )

The law of love,

The law of liberty in Christ Jesus,

The law of Christ Himself. His life is all that we need to live by now.

We don't need to "obey" Lev. 18:21 to know not to have sex with animals - all the laws/principles of Christ Himself will stop that now that we are in Christ and He is in us in the new creation - joined as one spirit for all eternity.

Yet by saying that any of that is wrong, do you not show the Law is still binding? After all if it was not, then their would be no sin at all.
1Jo 3:4 ¶Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.



As for Paul, did he not also say in the same chapter,
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

He also told us,
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

So you see, even when looking at Paul, we are told that we can't have it both ways. We follow the Law, or sin when we brake it. If their is no Law, then anything goes, and it is not counted as sin. Like I always said, and will always say, salvation comes by faith, and faith follows up with obedience. As we know a disobedient child incurs wrath. So by your own admonition, you to follow some parts of the Law.

 

[followjesus]

I think you will find that there is no real sound answer ever going to come from the Faith only folks. In answering this, they arre forced to show they follow some parts of the Law, or that they don't walk in the Spirit at all.

grace brought us Jesus, He does the saving you want to see what saving faith looks Like according to Jesus? who was sent by Gods Grace to mankind? Heres Jesus take on it

Matthew 7:21-27 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

so youd kind of have to disprove or invalidate Jesus Christ the Lord
Paul spoke no differently than Jesus just uses different words whats Paul say about this principle?

romans 2:4-11 "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? <<< Graces purpose)

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; <<< thats coming to all mankind every person nd this is what Hes gonna judge by and the reward or punishment>>>6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: <<< all about the peo[ples actions.

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; <<< no difference in a jew of the Mosaic covenant or a gentile in Christ still what they actually do now having access to Jesus)

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God. <<< again thier deeds, what we do is what we will give account to God almighty and it will either condemn us or save us

really again would have to invalidate paul also see galatians 5, ephesians 5, galatians 6 both books of thessolonians its all the same tho9se who obey God, those who persist in disobedience even after clainming to have the holy spirit in them. the gog simply distorts the word Grace to mean something it doesnt mean dont you see thats why the " authors started writing these "revolutionary books about How grace trumops the rest? simply because it sells to sinners " hey it doesnt matterwhat i do Jesus already saved me. and then they actually teach the evils of the Law, and How the 4 gospels yeah they are actually the mosaic Law version 2.0 the gospel really began with Paul...only nothing paul says in all those obedience scriptures. Grace either works with faith or it is more the grace of the serpent " surely you will not die pshhh Gods too good to keep Hois word. when people accept Yes i need to give all of my Heart and Life to God....then they will understand Grace through Faith, until then its all a mirage and is the reason thos authors are filthy rich and build bigger "barns" to store up thier wealth because people want to Hear a different Gospel that rewuires no alleigance to the One who died so terribly and suffered so much abuse and torture, shame, being spit on beaten, flogged ect people want to hear " just say Grace and you are saved eternally...the issue is Jesus and the Whole bible is explaining " Hear God and obey Him and you will Live, hear God and disregard His warnings and you will surely suffer and die. the whole bible explains what our actions mean there will be no cop out when facing God. well u know Lord i just thought i didnt need to actually obey you......away from me i never Knew you is what Jesus proclaims Hell say.


do we have to be perfect nope. should we ignore Our sin no way shape or form. should we ignore the actual Grace of God given through Jesus Christ and the Gospel? sure if we wish to perish. should if a person stumbles and falls into sin after coming to Jesus feel lost forever naw, they should feel conviction for what they are aware they did, because they actually Love Jesus who gave His Life, and then they need repentance from that evil deed. repentance doesnt Happen 1 day it grows as our awareness of sin Grows. as we Learn, we have to take it with the utmost importance and accept it all or its lacking and distorted. its not all works, not all faith, not all Grace those things Have a balance but Our obedience to God that rewuirement will never faulter or change...its the very reason Jesus came and why the apostles preached His Gospel as commanded to bring sinners to repentance and obedience in order to give them eternal Life regardless of what they had done prior to Accepting the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ <<<<<thats a high price paid and so many leave that part out. we OWE Jesus Christ Our lives to our Last breath......and He will give us true Life for eternity. its not complex. Grace teaches us to Live right, because we Have faith in God through Jesus. but the distorted Grace alone false Gospel only tells inmates in a dungeon....really you are free even though your still a captive, freedom comes from accepting the Word of Jesus, and following it.out of that slavers dungeon. john 8:31-34


if we serve sin were sinners bound to death and torment, if We serve God according to Jesus Christ and His Gospel were free children of God. or maybe John says it best

1 john 3:4-10 "-Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


really doesnt Get plainer Jesus, Paul, John.....or lets make up our own Gospel. the Gospel is the same from Jesus until eternity new age authors dont change anything were actually warned against the " revolutionizers" of Gods Word the false teachers and doctrines were repeatedly told would come to lead us astray. thats all overthe world. gotta either take the gospel, or deny its truth.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yet by saying that any of that is wrong, do you not show the Law is still binding? After all if it was not, then their would be no sin at all.
1Jo 3:4 ¶Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.



As for Paul, did he not also say in the same chapter,
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

He also told us,
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

So you see, even when looking at Paul, we are told that we can't have it both ways. We follow the Law, or sin when we brake it. If their is no Law, then anything goes, and it is not counted as sin. Like I always said, and will always say, salvation comes by faith, and faith follows up with obedience. As we know a disobedient child incurs wrath. So by your own admonition, you to follow some parts of the Law.

The true Christian has absolutely no association to the law of Moses at all. We are in Christ now. The purpose of the law has been fulfilled and it brought us to Christ.

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so. These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.

It's where people are saying "You must observe these things or do these things in the Law or you are not obeying God" - that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work. Hebrews 4:10

 

[gotime]

Either way THAT was the covenant!

While I agree the old covenant was works based. It is not the same either way.

If you see the old covenant as Paul did as a works based covenant made by the people then you simply have a consistent loving God who meets people where they are and tries to lead them to faith.

If you see the old covenant as a works based covenant made by God then you make God inconsistent and a tyrant who sets people up to fail.

This will make a very big difference because one is a lie about God the other shows his true loving caring nature.

We got into this whole mess because of believing a lie about God.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

So I would say that the difference is of paramount importance.

 

[gotime]

Actually make sure you get that right, God in exodus 19 intended Israel to live in the same Covenant that he promised Abraham. IT was Israel not God who established a different covenant.

not at all friend the two peoples of the covenant of abraham begin in Genesis

12:1-Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; ( israel) and thou shalt be a blessing:3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. ( all nations of the Gospel the Whole world ) One covenant 2 promises one to abrams blood descendants and One to all the earth through abrams seed who is Jesus. thios is the Law of the Mosaic, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
4So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; " (notice here that abraham believed and because HE BELIEVED God he obeyed God. its "Faith without works is dead" had abraham believed God, and then said well i believe so theres no need to actually obey Him.......things would look different. Faith ewquals works thats what faith is believing so much that we do. its that simple if faith doesnt change our Lives.....its not faith, could be a seedling, but it wont hold up against the storms to come. its not at all different with Jesus, he taught the same what you actually do because you have faith is what matters. following His word ( Matthew 7:24-27) its not about saying i believe its about actually believiong enough to repent of ourselves and follow jesus the Word of God.

when your seeing works based salvation in pauls writings hes not referring to righteousness and sin, hes talking about saved by the works of sacrificing animals, and observing special days and sabbaths or seasons or festivals. those things were like the gospel is to us. Jesus is all of those things Our sacrifice, His communion is our passover feast to observe, the things he taught us to actually do not just agree with but put into action, not because were strong enough but because we have received the Holy spirit. so many comments dsort of leave out the receiving of the spirit and Gods ability to give us power through His Word living in us to make us new creatures. the "works" come from the Power of God is us what we call His spirit living in us through Jesus. we receive the spirit because of obedience to Jesus see John 14-15.

i think some mistake the word Faith to mean like children believe in santa they believe He is real but they dont be good all year to get Presents. God is Like a bag of Money billions of dollars and someone you fully trust says " hey theres a bag with billions of dollars in it buried in the center of your back yard 3 feet down.........if you believe this of course youll get the shovel and go dig it up to possess it and use it, but if you just say " sure i believe its there...buuuut nah its too hard to dig 3 feet down" its a lack of Faith in the person who told you. faith without works has no value. even though the value is there, its useless.
Genesis 15:12-16 "And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. 13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 16But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. << the covenant with the chikdren of israel ( abrams offspring who would go into 400 years of captivity in egypt.)


Ive Learned that most all who spend thier time saying " dont work, not by works, do nothing rest in Grace ect...ect... they are those who are seeking to justify things in thoer life that they are aware are sinful and forbidden By Gods Word. so they then equate " sin and repentance and righteousness" to the terrible works of the Law.......thats not what paul is ever saying, His writings condemn the same things as the Law does. paul promises judgement and torment for those who continue on in sin. romans 2:5-11, galatians 5, ephesians 5 and on and on. he just wrote in a different style and is easy to misconstrue, only NOT if a person looks into the Law, then His writings make perfect sense. and so does the Gospel.

Christians who have a heart won by Jesus Christ, have not a single complaint about doing the Works, because He died to bring us to God and be included in the covenant. God doesnt change nor does He favor anyone. the same morality He demanded from israel, is the same He calls for from us today. Morality is morality itll never be okay with God to lie, Cheat, steal, kill, commit adultery, commit violence, fornication, to be Greedy or be idolatrous, rape, having another God or anything else He said in the Law regarding immorality. those things will kill those who live in those ways. it has everything to do with what we do, NOW Having Been Given everything we need to live upright Lives before God. Israel idnt get that supply, they were sinners by spirit trying to live Holy Lives......when a person comes to Jesus though, were promised newness of Life, new birth in the spirit <<<<<that is the Most power available to live right. today we try to use faith to get our own Gain and blessing, its meant to keep us because of Grace and teach us How to live right. teach us to repent of Sins in our Lives, and instead do the things of God......thats why paul wrote so much about new creations in Christ. because the gospel offers the Holy spirit.

Nothing Has changed about God, the gospel which brings His spirit will only ever change One thing...the persons Heart who receives it and a changed Heart is a changed Life actions and all. when a person accept Jesus Great suffering, thats plenty more than enough to commit Our Lives to Gods Way

Now I agree with you on one level and not on another if I understand you correctly. not sure yet. but I will say it so you know where I am at.

I agree works follow faith, My post does not dismiss this Idea but rather focuses on the issue of the promises of men vs the promises of God.

I did quote that Abraham obeyed God from Genesis. No doubt but that came through faith not works. He was changed by God. No man can keep the law of God in our natural state.

As for Galatians, Paul is referring to both the 10 commandments and the ceremonial sacrificial aspects. If Israel had believed God they would not have needed anything Abraham did not have. They would just need faith.

faith is just trust, Trust in what? Gods promises. Just as Abraham trusted God and moved from Haran when God made promise. Faith and works.

But make no mistake it is not within mans reach to keep the law of God. Thus we need saving. that is the purpose of not just the sacrifices but the moral. law.

Just think about it for a second, The sacrificial law was needed because of breaking the 10 commandments. This in itself shows that the law could not be kept otherwise why have sacrifices?

Now do not get me wrong on this. the law on stone can not save it can not transform you it can only reveal your reality.

But if one trusts in God then they will receive a new heart. The new heart naturally keeps the law of God just as Abraham who had not the law actually lived the law showing the work of the law written on his heart.

The issue is not should Gods people do the law or not. The word is clear they should. the issue is how?

Is it by mans works and attempts or is it by a powerful promise of God to transform a sinner into a saint so to speak. I say the latter is true.

In fact my experience lines up with the latter. I spent many years trying to obey God and constantly failing. Then in desperation I reread the word of God and saw many things I had missed. I stopped trying to please God with obedience and started to accept my sin and then trust his promise. Now I no longer strive to keep the law by being obedient to it. I just look to Christ my saviour and by nature I am able to keep it now. now when I look at the law I do not see condemnation but the marvellous promise of Jesus come true.

 

[Rainrider]

The true Christian has absolutely no association to the law of Moses at all. We are in Christ now. The purpose of the law has been fulfilled and it brought us to Christ.

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so. These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.

It's where people are saying "You must observe these things or do these things in the Law or you are not obeying God" - that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work. Hebrews 4:10

As it seems it will always be, we must agree to disagree on this. I do respect your stand on it, As I already know you do mine as well. It always nice to hear from you though. I pray you are in good hummer, and enjoying life.

 

[Rainrider]

grace brought us Jesus, He does the saving you want to see what saving faith looks Like according to Jesus? who was sent by Gods Grace to mankind? Heres Jesus take on it

Matthew 7:21-27 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

so youd kind of have to disprove or invalidate Jesus Christ the Lord
Paul spoke no differently than Jesus just uses different words whats Paul say about this principle?

romans 2:4-11 "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? <<< Graces purpose)

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; <<< thats coming to all mankind every person nd this is what Hes gonna judge by and the reward or punishment>>>6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: <<< all about the peo[ples actions.

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; <<< no difference in a jew of the Mosaic covenant or a gentile in Christ still what they actually do now having access to Jesus)

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God. <<< again thier deeds, what we do is what we will give account to God almighty and it will either condemn us or save us

really again would have to invalidate paul also see galatians 5, ephesians 5, galatians 6 both books of thessolonians its all the same tho9se who obey God, those who persist in disobedience even after clainming to have the holy spirit in them. the gog simply distorts the word Grace to mean something it doesnt mean dont you see thats why the " authors started writing these "revolutionary books about How grace trumops the rest? simply because it sells to sinners " hey it doesnt matterwhat i do Jesus already saved me. and then they actually teach the evils of the Law, and How the 4 gospels yeah they are actually the mosaic Law version 2.0 the gospel really began with Paul...only nothing paul says in all those obedience scriptures. Grace either works with faith or it is more the grace of the serpent " surely you will not die pshhh Gods too good to keep Hois word. when people accept Yes i need to give all of my Heart and Life to God....then they will understand Grace through Faith, until then its all a mirage and is the reason thos authors are filthy rich and build bigger "barns" to store up thier wealth because people want to Hear a different Gospel that rewuires no alleigance to the One who died so terribly and suffered so much abuse and torture, shame, being spit on beaten, flogged ect people want to hear " just say Grace and you are saved eternally...the issue is Jesus and the Whole bible is explaining " Hear God and obey Him and you will Live, hear God and disregard His warnings and you will surely suffer and die. the whole bible explains what our actions mean there will be no cop out when facing God. well u know Lord i just thought i didnt need to actually obey you......away from me i never Knew you is what Jesus proclaims Hell say.


do we have to be perfect nope. should we ignore Our sin no way shape or form. should we ignore the actual Grace of God given through Jesus Christ and the Gospel? sure if we wish to perish. should if a person stumbles and falls into sin after coming to Jesus feel lost forever naw, they should feel conviction for what they are aware they did, because they actually Love Jesus who gave His Life, and then they need repentance from that evil deed. repentance doesnt Happen 1 day it grows as our awareness of sin Grows. as we Learn, we have to take it with the utmost importance and accept it all or its lacking and distorted. its not all works, not all faith, not all Grace those things Have a balance but Our obedience to God that rewuirement will never faulter or change...its the very reason Jesus came and why the apostles preached His Gospel as commanded to bring sinners to repentance and obedience in order to give them eternal Life regardless of what they had done prior to Accepting the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ <<<<<thats a high price paid and so many leave that part out. we OWE Jesus Christ Our lives to our Last breath......and He will give us true Life for eternity. its not complex. Grace teaches us to Live right, because we Have faith in God through Jesus. but the distorted Grace alone false Gospel only tells inmates in a dungeon....really you are free even though your still a captive, freedom comes from accepting the Word of Jesus, and following it.out of that slavers dungeon. john 8:31-34


if we serve sin were sinners bound to death and torment, if We serve God according to Jesus Christ and His Gospel were free children of God. or maybe John says it best

1 john 3:4-10 "-Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


really doesnt Get plainer Jesus, Paul, John.....or lets make up our own Gospel. the Gospel is the same from Jesus until eternity new age authors dont change anything were actually warned against the " revolutionizers" of Gods Word the false teachers and doctrines were repeatedly told would come to lead us astray. thats all overthe world. gotta either take the gospel, or deny its truth.

The thing about Paul, (or in my mind) is that he seems to get removed from who, and what he is, as well removed from his own time. Other than that we wouold be wise to use caution when we use Paul in any debate. After all one can find tht in the same chapter he may say something that can seem one way, then in his next breath, turn that on end. If one does not know who Paul was, and that he didn't build a new teaching, rather he simply did his best to teach what he had. As th NT was not cannoned until around 365 AD it is clear he didn't have that o work from.
Even Peter told us of Paul's writings.
2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
2Pe 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

When I gt done with my thread on the Torah, I am thinking of opening one to study Paul. More a good look at him, and his use of words.
Be blessed my friend.

 

[Rainrider]

Now I agree with you on one level and not on another if I understand you correctly. not sure yet. but I will say it so you know where I am at.

I agree works follow faith, My post does not dismiss this Idea but rather focuses on the issue of the promises of men vs the promises of God.

I did quote that Abraham obeyed God from Genesis. No doubt but that came through faith not works. He was changed by God. No man can keep the law of God in our natural state.

That I agree with.

As for Galatians, Paul is referring to both the 10 commandments and the ceremonial sacrificial aspects. If Israel had believed God they would not have needed anything Abraham did not have. They would just need faith.

faith is just trust, Trust in what? Gods promises. Just as Abraham trusted God and moved from Haran when God made promise. Faith and works.

But make no mistake it is not within mans reach to keep the law of God. Thus we need saving. that is the purpose of not just the sacrifices but the moral. law.

Just think about it for a second, The sacrificial law was needed because of breaking the 10 commandments. This in itself shows that the law could not be kept otherwise why have sacrifices?

It is my understanding that the sacrificial system was more about Obedience, and a way to show your faith in HaShem. That is except for he sin sacrifice. Besides all that, we know that HaShem was unhappy with the sacrificial system before Yeshua,
Hos 6:6

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Jer 6:20 For what purpose to Me Comes frankincense from Sheba, And sweet cane from a far country?
Your burnt offerings are not acceptable, Nor your sacrifices sweet to Me.”


[QOUTE=]Now do not get me wrong on this. the law on stone can not save it can not transform you it can only reveal your reality.

But if one trusts in God then they will receive a new heart. The new heart naturally keeps the law of God just as Abraham who had not the law actually lived the law showing the work of the law written on his heart.

The issue is not should Gods people do the law or not. The word is clear they should. the issue is how? [/QOUTE]

That is a good point, and one that needs to looked at more closely. You see the Law is not meant to be followed to the letter as many think. It was, is, and will remain, the thing that tells us when we did wrong. It is what is in our hearts that can change how the Law works. In other words, if a person was shoot another i the back, that would be sin. No mater if they said they were a believer or not. Yet if this was done to save a life, then their heart would have been in the right place. So what they did is not sin. That is an extreme example I know, yet it does show the meaning of my thinking.

Is it by mans works and attempts or is it by a powerful promise of God to transform a sinner into a saint so to speak. I say the latter is true.

There is noway it can be both? Salvation must be always be shown in ones works. If we hold to salvation, and sin all day, then our salvation is is void. So one must always work to stay clear of sin, and to do that we must hold to the Laws. To set the law aside, as being to hard or we are unable to keep it, then we may as well just remove it, and sin all day. After all with out law their is no sin counted against us.

In fact my experience lines up with the latter. I spent many years trying to obey God and constantly failing. Then in desperation I reread the word of God and saw many things I had missed. I stopped trying to please God with obedience and started to accept my sin and then trust his promise. Now I no longer strive to keep the law by being obedient to it. I just look to Christ my saviour and by nature I am able to keep it now. now when I look at the law I do not see condemnation but the marvellous promise of Jesus come true.

Is this not why Paul was talking about when he said,
1Co 15:31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Everyday our sinful selves must die. Everyday we should seek our hearts and find what doesn't line up with HaShem, and all his teachings. If it doesn't line up, then we must let that part of our flesh die. If we over look that we are told many times to KEEP the commandments, and that the saints,


Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Or the best way to make Satan made,
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Keep in mind this seems as though Satan is not worried about the people that don't keep the commandments. Must be that by not keeping them, he already has you under his thumb. I know you won't see this the same way, I am good with that. It does seem that when we do exchange ideas, we both learn something. Must that we show respect to one another.
May HaShem bless you for that.

 

[gotime]

That I agree with.



It is my understanding that the sacrificial system was more about Obedience, and a way to show your faith in HaShem. That is except for he sin sacrifice. Besides all that, we know that HaShem was unhappy with the sacrificial system before Yeshua,
Hos 6:6

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Jer 6:20 For what purpose to Me Comes frankincense from Sheba, And sweet cane from a far country?
Your burnt offerings are not acceptable, Nor your sacrifices sweet to Me.”


[QOUTE=]Now do not get me wrong on this. the law on stone can not save it can not transform you it can only reveal your reality.

But if one trusts in God then they will receive a new heart. The new heart naturally keeps the law of God just as Abraham who had not the law actually lived the law showing the work of the law written on his heart.

The issue is not should Gods people do the law or not. The word is clear they should. the issue is how? [/QOUTE]

That is a good point, and one that needs to looked at more closely. You see the Law is not meant to be followed to the letter as many think. It was, is, and will remain, the thing that tells us when we did wrong. It is what is in our hearts that can change how the Law works. In other words, if a person was shoot another i the back, that would be sin. No mater if they said they were a believer or not. Yet if this was done to save a life, then their heart would have been in the right place. So what they did is not sin. That is an extreme example I know, yet it does show the meaning of my thinking.



There is noway it can be both? Salvation must be always be shown in ones works. If we hold to salvation, and sin all day, then our salvation is is void. So one must always work to stay clear of sin, and to do that we must hold to the Laws. To set the law aside, as being to hard or we are unable to keep it, then we may as well just remove it, and sin all day. After all with out law their is no sin counted against us.



Is this not why Paul was talking about when he said,
1Co 15:31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Everyday our sinful selves must die. Everyday we should seek our hearts and find what doesn't line up with HaShem, and all his teachings. If it doesn't line up, then we must let that part of our flesh die. If we over look that we are told many times to KEEP the commandments, and that the saints,


Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Or the best way to make Satan made,
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Keep in mind this seems as though Satan is not worried about the people that don't keep the commandments. Must be that by not keeping them, he already has you under his thumb. I know you won't see this the same way, I am good with that. It does seem that when we do exchange ideas, we both learn something. Must that we show respect to one another.
May HaShem bless you for that.

Amen I agree with what you have written here, all of it. Praise the Lord.

 

[Rainrider]

Amen I agree with what you have written here, all of it. Praise the Lord.

Now thats no fun.

 

[gotime]

Now thats no fun.

I am sorry, but if it helps I disagree I say it was fun. lol