Ok to be lesbian?

Kawaii · Mar 16, 2014

ji said:

If I understand correctly, you are saying the immoral acts listed in Leviticus 18:22 result in the things you listed yes?
So you are saying not to do anything listed in Leviticus 18:22

However, being lesbian is not listed in Leviticus 18:22

Apostol2013 · Mar 16, 2014

Being lesbian is an unatural act and an abomination also listed in romans chapter 1

ji · Mar 16, 2014

Kawaii said:

Stop clinging on to that verse alone...
if that is your primary concern go to some jewish rabbi..
Otherwise you must know that Christ came in flesh to free mankind from sins and ancient curses..
and that the level of Sanctification and the rules(commandments) of OT has been fine tuned taking it to mental(Spiritual) purity than physical purity.
So everything sinful is accounted in and mentioned,which comes in list of sins including lesbianism.

your assumptions are strongly rooted on an OT verse.Snap out of it!
Not for the sake of arguing,please try to realize and don't lead others to traps..

Kawaii · Mar 16, 2014

doseofreality said:

Nothing I can do about the rule against guys doing it if it clearly states it is a sin in the Bible. It's clearly stated as wrong in the Bible. That is, it's not really a double standard. I'm just certain the Bible is stating that being gay is a sin, by the way it is worded clearly and concisely. It was listed clearly in the list of immoral acts and stated as an abomination elsewhere as well. It is probably referring only to penetrative sex between them, though. That is, unless there is a part of the Bible that I overlooked.

Kawaii · Mar 16, 2014

ji said:

It seems like being lesbian is not listed as a sin anywhere. The only time it is mentioned is when Paul mentions it once ambiguously in Romans.

ji · Mar 16, 2014

Kawaii said:

hahahahah,sorry i couldn't stop it.
But you must understand that the words 'gay' and 'lesbian' had totally different meaning some decades ago.Search it out for yourself if am wrong.Please do correct.
So the terms used by the Apostle was different because the age was different and way things were spoke were different too..
But the meaning was all the same...

you get the point i know,take your time to realize and come to Jesus...

Kawaii · Mar 16, 2014

ji said:

Paul didn't say "gay" or "lesbian". He used the words "women" and "men" to convey those meanings.

Kawaii · Mar 16, 2014

Got to go. Feel free to post. Be back later.

LegendaryXD · Mar 16, 2014

It's okay to be born gay or lesbian but not to interact in those sexual activities. We are all born with sin but does that mean we should live a sinful life? No and therefore if you are born ga or lesbian...that is fine, just don't take part in those activities.

LegendaryXD · Mar 16, 2014

Gay is not just a term referred to male, it' a term referred to a certain gender liking the same gender. A lesbian is just a sub section of the term Gay. Homosexuality is sin, therefore taking part in gay acts in a sin (see how I never said being gay or having the urge was). It does not need to mention lesbians specifically because they fall under the term homosexuality.

oldhermit · Mar 16, 2014

Kawaii said:

I have reason to believe that being lesbian is not a sin.

The idea that being lesbian is a sin, particularly an act of sexual immorality, appears to be referring to two things found in the Bible.

The first, is this:

Leviticus 18:22

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (KJV)
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." (ESV & NSRV)
"You are not to sleep with a man as with a woman; it is detestable." (HCSB)

which is a line in a list of sexual immoralities addressed directly by GOD.

However, this is a line that specifically states a man may not sleep with a man in the same way as they would with a woman.
This does not say that a woman can not sleep with a woman as they would with a man.

In other words, this is a rule for men, not women.

Argument 1:
It's implied that same sex relations are wrong.
Counterargument 1:
The very next line states "Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto". This addresses a rule specifically for women in a separate section of the same line. It comes off as strange that it would be so specific here, yet not specific in the rule made immediately before it. If it was a rule against women doing it with women, then it would likely say something along the lines of "You are not to sleep with a man as with a woman; Neither shall any woman sleep with a woman as with a man: it is detestable". However, it did not do so, which comes off as strange considering the formatting of the rule that comes immediately after it.

Argument 2:
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.". The bolded part is saying that women may not do so either.
Counterargument 2:
If that were the case, then "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." the bolded part here would be separate. Even if they are not separate, then no matter how you twist this, the closest thing you are going to get to a rule about lesbians would be "You may not sleep with a man as you would with a woman, neither shall any woman sleep with a man as they would with a woman."

Argument 3:
If it is not okay for two men to have a sexual relationship, then why would it be okay for two women to have a sexual relationship?! Just because the bible does not explicitly say it is unacceptable for two women to have a sexual relationship does not mean that it is okay!
Counterargument 3:
See Counterargument 1:. We can't assume that it is a sin if it does not explicitly say so. There is actually nothing here suggesting it is wrong to have a lesbian relationship, so there is no reason to act like it is.

Argument 4:
Are you a lesbian? If so, then this whole topic is you twisting the Bible and manipulating to have your way! You are just making it mean something else to your own benefit! That is not good in the eyes of GOD.
Counterargument 4:
I am not lesbian. In fact, the thought of doing something like that personally grosses and creeps me out a bit (Although the thought of doing it with a man also grosses me out. I'm a virgin btw. I plan on staying that way for life.). That much is irrelevant regardless. As for what my motive is behind this topic, a few things. You are making lesbians feel like they will go to hell for what they are and how they feel. Moreover, it is possible that it is not even a sin in the first place! More importantly, you are turning them away from GOD by saying so. You may think that because they would turn from GOD to indulge in being lesbian, that they were already too sinful in the first place. This is incorrect. It turns them away because they believe that if GOD is the kind of person that would send people to hell over something like love, that GOD is a cruel being. Even so, many lesbians try to be Christian regardless, and are put down by daring to call themselves Christian while being so sexually perverse and immoral. This makes Christians, some who are likely the home of much more sin in general, look bad, and turns them away from the religion. This also makes them feel like a minority doomed to hell for how they are. In other words, you are making Christianity a thing that makes them miserable and ruins their life. And for what? Because we think a verse may imply that it is wrong without even explicitly saying so? Aren't we contradicting ourselves, to think we will be fine for our sins that we choose to do in our lives as well as the sinful tendencies that we call a part of who we are and what we are? Unforgivable, by most but not GOD who is understanding and has forgiven you for all of your sins that are much more vast than the one potential sin you pointed out.

Additionally, there is nothing logically incorrect about anything that I pointed out. It does not say it is a sin for women to sleep with women as they would with a man. That means there is nothing suggesting that it is a sin in the first place. Why would this "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." be worded this way, but the line "Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto" that comes immediately afterwards be so specific and address women separately?

Argument 5:
So according to you, it's perfectly fine to be lesbian! Great! Now society is one step closer to incest and pedophilia!
Counterargument 5:
No more so than heterosexual relationships. In fact, GOD specified against incest and pedophilia in the section regarding sexual immoralities. Do not forget, however, that we are not to judge, and that we need to focus on ourselves as much as possible. We are sinful ourselves, and have no time to focus on the immorality of society or the acts of others. It is not your place to judge, and I believe, judging is the one of very few ways to get GOD to judge you now that Jesus has died for your sins. Another, is sinning purposefully as though you have a get out of jail free card and do true evil feeling you will meet no consequence. Do not judge, or you too will be judged, and with your unit of measure, it will be measured to you.

In other words, focus on yourself. Focus on yourself as much as you can. You need to do all you can to be good yourself. Teach others, but do not force the word down their throats. Do not abhore a sinful Christian, as they are in need of Christianity the most. Do not say "How dare you call yourself Christian when X" because the same should be said to you.

The other part:

Romans 1:18
That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.
Note here, that it is not GOD speaking, but the apostle Paul.

This appears to be written from the perspective of Paul who was watching what became of the people who worshiped an idol instead of GOD.

The verse does have this line "Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.". The way this is worded, seems more like a declaration of geniune surprise in response to the observation that even women were doing it with women.

The lines "And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.", also said by Paul, all seems to be referring specifically to men.

Although Paul was an apostle and therefore technically able to declare lesbian relationships as a sin, he was certainly not doing so at this time.

This combined with the list of sexual immoralities stated directly by GOD that specified for women in the line "Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto" but not in the line "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." convinced me that perhaps it is not actually a sin. It doesn't appear to be mentioned anywhere else in the Bible as far as I know, unless i'm wrong? It appears as though it isn't explicitely or clearly stated anywhere in the Bible that lesbian relationships are wrong.

What do you think?

It never ceases to amaze me to what lengths people will go in twisting scripture in order justify behavior which the text clearly condemns.

jag1977 · Mar 16, 2014

Apostol2013 said:

So many posting up leviticus but there isn't any found to separate the clean and unclean. This chapter was originally written in and had a sole purpose to edify, the Hebrew language. Abomination, defile, etc are added to the translation. It's not there to judge. It's sad that all the pain, hate, and rejection actually comes by people making a whore out of God and the intended purpose. I'm sure these are the same people that think (by faith) they hold some special truth in God. Same people that think Noah built a great boat called an ark. You, just as in leviticus, are lost in translation.

doseofreality · Mar 16, 2014

Kawaii said:

Well in your view, God has a double standard regarding homosexuality.

Anyway I have tried to stop you from fighting a losing battle but to no avail.

You are taking a very legalistic view of christianity, the legalities of whether lesbianism is directly forbidden in the bible is irrelevant to christians. Most argue that it does in Romans as many have posted.
The fact that homosexuality is referred to as sin infers both male and female varieties. Additionally in no way is it condoned in the bible.

The bible does not directly forbid me from speeding or driving recklessly, however, it does not condone it either. Also in NT i believe it refers to obeying authority which you can infer to mean obey traffic laws.

I will end with this, If you have a problem with the morality of the church's view on homosexuality, leave the church, start your own denomination, do whatever. Attempting to change the christian's view based on a legalistic loophole is futile.

deepthought · Mar 16, 2014

Kawaii said:

Hi Kawaii, welcome

In my honest opinion, faith is something unique to you. You can not choose to be a theist, anymore than you can choose your sexuality. Regardless of what the bible says, any person who tells you this is not acceptable or that you will burn in hell are being bigots. If there were to be a God that was an intelligent designer who created all life then that creator also assigned sexual preference. Why would should an all powerful and knowing deity purposely create a feeling that would later be condemned. Answer, it wouldn't.

You are alive and you are amazing. Be happy with that.

dP

LegendaryXD · Mar 16, 2014

deepthought said:

Why would an all loving and powerful creator allow sin to take place knowing that people aren't going to believe? God could have spared them eternal life yet chose not too. according to you, he wouldn't yet he did lol

deepthought · Mar 16, 2014

LegendaryXD said:

I won't get into this on this topic. I would just hope that modern Christians have faith because it feels right to them as opposed to doing it because they are terrorised into their faith and lured by the promise of eternal life.

Radius · Mar 16, 2014

LegendaryXD said:

You can not prove that being gay or lesbian is determined at birth. If that is the case, then ALL sexual appetites are determined at birth. Is a pedophile born "that way?" Sexuality is shaped throughout your young years by your sexual desires and where your brain takes it. Some people get carried away and enticed...giving birth to sin.

oldhermit · Mar 16, 2014

Radius said:

Defending homosexual is a rationalization process by which people attempt to normalize deviant choices that cannot be justified through any psychological exercise. It is simply an attempt to placate a conscience that cannot harmonize the thing one desires and the moral limitations that prohibit the behavior. Homosexuals are NOT born gay. This is nothing more than an attempt to appeal to the scientific community and call them as a witness against the defense of scripture. Homosexuality is not a biological issue, it is a sin issue. It is not socially acceptable behavior, it is a social and moral disgrace. Homosexuality is not an illness nor is it some type of genetic abnormality. It is certainly not engineered biologically at birth. Homosexuality is a learned behavior and a matter of choice, not a predilection. There is no "pride" in it, nor should it be afforded any measure of dignity. IT IS SIN and in the end it will destroy all who engage in it or stand in its defense. Attempting to explain it away scientifically is simply an attempt to excuse the behavior and marginalize it's shame.

Apostol2013 · Mar 16, 2014

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Apostol2013 · Mar 16, 2014

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: note

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. note

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; note note

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: note

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. note

Ok to be lesbian?

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