Old Earth vs Young Earth

[BigFriendlyApologist]

I think study will show most fossils occurred as the flood was occurring on earth.

Fossils are often formed near water environments be it in a stream or an ocean of in other places where sediment and other debris can prevent the harmful impacts of the outside environment. I would think that much of the fossil evidence displayed is from the seas that once covered the earth during the Cambrian era or dinosaurs that died during floods or beside bodies of water or places where sediment could quickly cover them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Fossils are often formed near water environments be it in a stream or an ocean of in other places where sediment and other debris can prevent the harmful impacts of the outside environment. I would think that much of the fossil evidence displayed is from the seas that once covered the earth during the Cambrian era or dinosaurs that died during floods or beside bodies of water or places where sediment could quickly cover them.

The thing is is like you said. it would have to be quick. the body of the animal can not have time to decompose or their would be no fossil, Which would easily have occurred in the biblical flood.

 

[BigFriendlyApologist]

The thing is is like you said. it would have to be quick. the body of the animal can not have time to decompose or their would be no fossil, Which would easily have occurred in the biblical flood.

It is possible along with a large variety of situations that such events combined with a lot of luck (as with all fossils) that a fossil could be formed.

 

[BigFriendlyApologist]

The thing is is like you said. it would have to be quick. the body of the animal can not have time to decompose or their would be no fossil, Which would easily have occurred in the biblical flood.

There is also a theory that the biblical flood was an isolated event (with the whole "earth" in Hebrew also referring to the "land" around a particular area). It is possible this could have occurred during a particularly brutal flooding of the Black Sea region after it connected with the Aegean Sea and the difference between the two seas was anywhere between 30 and 90 meters. This could have led to massive coastal floodings around the Black Sea, engulfing all that was in view.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is also a theory that the biblical flood was an isolated event (with the whole "earth" in Hebrew also referring to the "land" around a particular area). It is possible this could have occurred during a particularly brutal flooding of the Black Sea region after it connected with the Aegean Sea and the difference between the two seas was anywhere between 30 and 90 meters. This could have led to massive coastal floodings around the Black Sea, engulfing all that was in view.

I have heard of this, but see no evidence of it. The thing to realy see, is that the earth looked quite different before the flood than it did after. It was not just a rain event, it was a catastrophic event. which changed the face of the earth.

 

[shininglight]

maybe another way to ask this question is....
Adam and Eve were created in a mature adult form, the animals too. That being said, could it be possible that the Planet itself was created a mature planet?
Would it have been possible for the planet to be created as an adult planet with fossils and etc. Just a thought

This could very well be the case. I'll be honest, it is the universe that makes me think creation is old more so than the earth and things within it.

 

[shininglight]

Fossils are often formed near water environments be it in a stream or an ocean of in other places where sediment and other debris can prevent the harmful impacts of the outside environment. I would think that much of the fossil evidence displayed is from the seas that once covered the earth during the Cambrian era or dinosaurs that died during floods or beside bodies of water or places where sediment could quickly cover them.

Since there is fossils, please explain death before sin?

 

[BigFriendlyApologist]

I have heard of this, but see no evidence of it.

There is actually quite a lot of evidence of a local flood in the Bosporus region. Archaeologists have discovered ancient shorelines, geologists have proved that water moved over into the Black Sea at one point in time (although there is disagreement how much based on the 30-90m range between how high the two seas were as compared to one another). It's actually quite interesting and explains a lot of the movement towards Mesopotamia.

The thing to realy see, is that the earth looked quite different before the flood than it did after. It was not just a rain event, it was a catastrophic event. which changed the face of the earth.

We really don't know what the earth would have looked like before the flood. That is purely speculation. What we see is the effects of water that are on the Earth which is explainable for a variety of reasons including the Pre-Cambrian and Cambrian periods or glaciers.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is actually quite a lot of evidence of a local flood in the Bosporus region. Archaeologists have discovered ancient shorelines, geologists have proved that water moved over into the Black Sea at one point in time (although there is disagreement how much based on the 30-90m range between how high the two seas were as compared to one another). It's actually quite interesting and explains a lot of the movement towards Mesopotamia.

True, but a major catastrophic flood explains so much more. For one people assume the earth had mountains and there we continental drift pre flood. So all things have to come into consideration.

We really don't know what the earth would have looked like before the flood. That is purely speculation. What we see is the effects of water that are on the Earth which is explainable for a variety of reasons including the Pre-Cambrian and Cambrian periods or glaciers.

yet even these explanations can be are biased,

Now image an earth with no mountains, no continental drift. And then God, by speaking a word. Causes the earth crust to separate, causing huge lava flows entering the oceans and causing the floods which came from the deep. Which according to the scripture. the fountains of the deep opened up. This would easily be explained by continental drift.

Now image the earth after the flood. Not only has the landscape changed, But the climate has changed also. The land mass, Which was one continent, Starts to drift along continental shelf. And we have continents being made which are drifting, etc etc.

the fact is, Scripture makes it clear. ALL life on earth were destroyed but the ones saved in the ark. If All live was not destroyed, but just the life in that part of the world. Scripture would be a sham.

 

[BigFriendlyApologist]

Since there is fossils, please explain death before sin?

Herbivores had to eat before the Fall. Plants must have died. The same with animals that were carnivorous. Did they all starve before the Fall? I think not.

There is more biblical evidence here: No Death Before the Fall - A Young Earth Problem

It also explains some of the passages that seem to indicate no death before the fall.

 

[shininglight]

Herbivores had to eat before the Fall. Plants must have died. The same with animals that were carnivorous. Did they all starve before the Fall? I think not.

There is more biblical evidence here: No Death Before the Fall - A Young Earth Problem

It also explains some of the passages that seem to indicate no death before the fall.

I will read that link in a second but I want to state that plant life doesnt have a "Nephesh" and the bible seems to indicate that there were no carnivorous until after the flood.

Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

 

[ginny]

God created the world. And it was good. He created everything in it. And it was good. That is the only part that is truly important. There is no doubt that the earth is very old. Well, God's been around forever, so that is not a problem for him. The exact specifics of how he did it are not really necessary (and would probably bore me anyways!) But what he created is good, and those He created are good. As I sit here looking out my window and see bumble bees landing gently on the delicate orange flowers and watch new mothers bring their babies into our building for "Baby Talk", I know that God's creation is good.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Herbivores had to eat before the Fall. Plants must have died. The same with animals that were carnivorous. Did they all starve before the Fall? I think not.

There is more biblical evidence here: No Death Before the Fall - A Young Earth Problem

It also explains some of the passages that seem to indicate no death before the fall.

this again is based on assumptions.

1. That any creature had to eat to live.
2. That there was death and things were not perfect
3. That the time between creation and the fall was a "great length of time"

 

[BigFriendlyApologist]

True, but a major catastrophic flood explains so much more. For one people assume the earth had mountains and there we continental drift pre flood. So all things have to come into consideration.

People assume we had mountains for good reasons (explanation below under your flood explanation)

yet even these explanations can be are biased,

There is always a possibility of bias. On both sides.

Now image an earth with no mountains, no continental drift. And then God, by speaking a word. Causes the earth crust to separate, causing huge lava flows entering the oceans and causing the floods which came from the deep. Which according to the scripture. the fountains of the deep opened up. This would easily be explained by continental drift.

Now image the earth after the flood. Not only has the landscape changed, But the climate has changed also. The land mass, Which was one continent, Starts to drift along continental shelf. And we have continents being made which are drifting, etc etc.

Possible, yes. Probable no. Geology shows us that mountains have formed over a very long time, not suddenly within 40 days. The continents also move slowly even with massive shifts in tectonic plates and massive amounts of lava coming out. Additionally, water leaving the fountains of the deep (i.e. aquifers) would take too long to allow for all of the earth to flood and would leave massive geological imprints that we have not found.

the fact is, Scripture makes it clear. ALL life on earth were destroyed but the ones saved in the ark. If All live was not destroyed, but just the life in that part of the world. Scripture would be a sham.

Again we come to the tricky thing of the Hebrew word for earth and land. I think, based on the evidence, the land surrounding an area makes more sense.

 

[shininglight]

What about thorns? Were there thorns before the fall?

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Obviously thorns are a result of the cursed ground because a thorn is simply an under developed part of the plant.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

People assume we had mountains for good reasons (explanation below under your flood explanation)



There is always a possibility of bias. On both sides.

True..

Possible, yes. Probable no. Geology shows us that mountains have formed over a very long time, not suddenly within 40 days. The continents also move slowly even with massive shifts in tectonic plates and massive amounts of lava coming out. Additionally, water leaving the fountains of the deep (i.e. aquifers) would take too long to allow for all of the earth to flood and would leave massive geological imprints that we have not found.

And this is what I mean. These are based on assumptions. And not proven.

People say the grand canyon was formed over many years thousands of years by a river, yet it is proven that

1. The river would have had to flow uphil to even start to form the canyon.
2. The mt st helens disaster proves a canyon like the grand canyon could be made in days, and not millions of years.

There is actual evidence which supports my theory (yes it is a theory, as is all scientific theories of what happened thousands of years ago)

Again I take you to Peter. When he said men in the last days assume things had always happened the same. most science assume things happen the same today as it did 6000 years ago. If radiological decay and many other things were not the same. All modern scientific data is destroyed.

Again we come to the tricky thing of the Hebrew word for earth and land. I think, based on the evidence, the land surrounding an area makes more sense.

We must be looking at different evidence then. I see the flood as causing all the things todays science says took millions of years. It is just a way to disprove God and a creator.

 

[BigFriendlyApologist]

I will read that link in a second but I want to state that plant life doesnt have a "Nephesh" and the bible seems to indicate that there were no carnivorous until after the flood.

Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Nephresh refers to the animals I believe. There were references sited on the page as to where in the Bible it says plants die (whether they are nephresh or not, they can still die). The word used to describe the wild animals from yom 6 was chayah which refers to carnivores 20 times in the bible and only includes herbivores and carnivores together four times. Either way, always includes carnivores.

this again is based on assumptions.

1. That any creature had to eat to live.
2. That there was death and things were not perfect
3. That the time between creation and the fall was a "great length of time"

First one is generally a reasonable assumption especially since God told them they could eat. There are other ways to die... being stepped on by a rather large elephant might kill a plant for example Second one, the world was never perfect, merely good. Third one, I explained with yom. There is more on the website that I linked you to regarding that issue if you want.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

First one is generally a reasonable assumption especially since God told them they could eat. There are other ways to die... being stepped on by a rather large elephant might kill a plant for example Second one, the world was never perfect, merely good. Third one, I explained with yom. There is more on the website that I linked you to regarding that issue if you want.

sorry my friend. My God does not create things which are not perfect. They were not merely good. It was perfect.

while I agree with plants being eaten, I am talking about animals. I do not believe animals ate meat before the fall. Scripture states there will be a time when the lion and lamb sleep together without fear. This is when God restores things to the way they were before the flood.

 

[shininglight]

sorry my friend. My God does not create things which are not perfect. They were not merely good. It was perfect.

I have sort of been playing young earth advocate so far, but I'm gonna switch gears for a moment. If God creates everything perfect and that is what the Hebrew word bara (create) would imply. Then why was everything without form and void at first? Maybe it BECAME without form and void like the people who believe in the gap theory say?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Here is a verse similar to Genesis 1:2 and it was a result of a judgment. Some gap theorist believe what is being described in Jeremiah 4:23 is what happened in Genesis 1:2. I dont believe that but it is curious that it is similar in description and Jeremiah is describing a judgment.

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Plus, what did God tell Noah right after a judgment that destroyed everything?

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

What did he tell Adam?

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

 

[Laodicea]

I have sort of been playing young earth advocate so far, but I'm gonna switch gears for a moment. If God creates everything perfect and that is what the Hebrew word bara (create) would imply. Then why was everything without form and void at first? Maybe it BECAME without form and void like the people who believe in the gap theory say?

On day 1 God created the earth like that, without form and void. It was like that because nothing was created on it yet. These verses tell us how long each day in Genesis 1 was:-
Genesis 1:5
(5) And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Genesis 1:8
(8) And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:13
(13) And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Genesis 1:19
(19) And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Genesis 1:23
(23) And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Genesis 1:31
(31) And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Each day in Genesis 1 consisted of an evening and a morning a 24 hour period that goes with Exodus 20:11
Exodus 20:11
(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.