OSAS doctrine denies the faith
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If you do not understand the meanings of the words being used in the English then HOW can you really know the meaning of what is being said in scripture if they USE A DIFFERENT MEANING OF THE WORD that word doesn't even mean? 
S
Concerning the "ransom" references to the atonement:
Matthew 20:28 [SUP]28 [/SUP]even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Same explanation would apply to similar words when relating to the atonement.
I see a substitutionary nature inherent in this "ransom".
Notes from the Reformation Study Bible:
20:28 ransom. This term refers to the price paid to deliver someone from slavery or imprisonment. The price of freedom from sin and condemnation is Jesus’ life, given for us (1 Pet. 1:18, 19). Since the elect are ransomed from the wrath of God, the ransom was offered to God Himself. Jesus drinks the cup of God’s wrath (v. 23), not for His own sins, but as the means of ransoming many.
for many. The Greek preposition translated “for” can also be translated “in the place of.” It expresses the substitutionary nature of Jesus’ suffering. That Jesus says “many” here (cf. Is. 53:11, 12) rather than “all people” indicates a specific or definite focus to His redemptive activity. Nevertheless, it is “many” and not a “few.” See notes John 17:9; 1 Tim. 2:6.
Matthew 20:28 [SUP]28 [/SUP]even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Same explanation would apply to similar words when relating to the atonement.
I see a substitutionary nature inherent in this "ransom".
Notes from the Reformation Study Bible:
20:28 ransom. This term refers to the price paid to deliver someone from slavery or imprisonment. The price of freedom from sin and condemnation is Jesus’ life, given for us (1 Pet. 1:18, 19). Since the elect are ransomed from the wrath of God, the ransom was offered to God Himself. Jesus drinks the cup of God’s wrath (v. 23), not for His own sins, but as the means of ransoming many.
for many. The Greek preposition translated “for” can also be translated “in the place of.” It expresses the substitutionary nature of Jesus’ suffering. That Jesus says “many” here (cf. Is. 53:11, 12) rather than “all people” indicates a specific or definite focus to His redemptive activity. Nevertheless, it is “many” and not a “few.” See notes John 17:9; 1 Tim. 2:6.
This is reallly not hard to understand. Ask anyone.
If you steal even once.... you are a thief.
If you murder once.... you are a murderer.
If you lie once... you are a liar.
It's not complicated.
Also, nowhere in the Scriptures do we see anyone being forgiven with them refusing to admit that they are a sinner and or with them refusing to confess of their sins. Nowhere do we see a verse that says a believer can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved. For the Scriptures says, if we willfully sin after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins. Hence, why we are told to confess our sins so as to be forgiven of our sins as per what 1 John 1:9 says. For whether you can confess 1 sin to be forgiven of that 1 sin or whether you confess many sins to be forgiven of many sins (the math equation does not change).
Jesus said, if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven. So would it make a difference if you did not forgive 5 people versus 1 person? No, whether you chose not to forgive 1 or 5 people, the Father will not forgive you. Just as Adam and Eve had committed one sin that lead to sin and death upon all of mankind. David cried out to God not take His Holy Spirit from him and he just committed two sins. Who was more justified in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee? The man who cried out to God to be forgiven or the one who did not cry out to God? Paul says Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation.
For if what you say is true, if men can refuse to confess and forsake even one of their sins and they can just die in their sins (Whether it be one sin or many sins), then the whole world would be saved then. Because it is an actual command to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23).
If you steal even once.... you are a thief.
If you murder once.... you are a murderer.
If you lie once... you are a liar.
It's not complicated.
Also, nowhere in the Scriptures do we see anyone being forgiven with them refusing to admit that they are a sinner and or with them refusing to confess of their sins. Nowhere do we see a verse that says a believer can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved. For the Scriptures says, if we willfully sin after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins. Hence, why we are told to confess our sins so as to be forgiven of our sins as per what 1 John 1:9 says. For whether you can confess 1 sin to be forgiven of that 1 sin or whether you confess many sins to be forgiven of many sins (the math equation does not change).
Jesus said, if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven. So would it make a difference if you did not forgive 5 people versus 1 person? No, whether you chose not to forgive 1 or 5 people, the Father will not forgive you. Just as Adam and Eve had committed one sin that lead to sin and death upon all of mankind. David cried out to God not take His Holy Spirit from him and he just committed two sins. Who was more justified in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee? The man who cried out to God to be forgiven or the one who did not cry out to God? Paul says Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation.
For if what you say is true, if men can refuse to confess and forsake even one of their sins and they can just die in their sins (Whether it be one sin or many sins), then the whole world would be saved then. Because it is an actual command to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23).
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S
So far, what I've gotten from this thread is:
the people who deny eternal security are all talk and give no real life experience for their faith
you can know the bible really well but not understand its message at all
you can pound on the skins and it's really annoying.
you can know the bible really well but the more you talk about what you know about it, the less credibility you lend to it for healing the lost and broken
If you claim to have no sin in your life you're a self righteous bafoon with a tenuous grip on the reality of life and the subtle nuances contained in interpersonal human relationships
the people who deny eternal security are all talk and give no real life experience for their faith
you can know the bible really well but not understand its message at all
you can pound on the skins and it's really annoying.
you can know the bible really well but the more you talk about what you know about it, the less credibility you lend to it for healing the lost and broken
If you claim to have no sin in your life you're a self righteous bafoon with a tenuous grip on the reality of life and the subtle nuances contained in interpersonal human relationships
What do we mean by a substitute? If we were drinking coffee together and you left to go to bathroom and I exchanged my vanilla latte for your dark roast coffee I would have in effect substituted your drink with my drink. Let's say I seen a child in the road and I seen a car coming that was about to hit them, and the only way I could save their life was by pushing them out of the way whereby I would be hit instead. I would be substituting my life to be hit by that car versus that child being hit by that car. It is the same with Jesus Christ. For the Scriptures say,
John 15:13 - "There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends."
Romans 5:8 - "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
A. The Substitutionary Atonement:
Matthew 26:39 - "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
When Jesus was in the garden of gethsemane, he said "let this cup pass from me". Why did Jesus say this? What was in the cup that He dreaded so much?
Well, first we need to establish that Jesus was a man’s Man. He appealed to the rough and tough fisherman along the waterfront. The rugged, wilderness man, John the Baptist, admired Him. He was man enough to single-handedly drive the moneychangers out of the Temple. If we were to consider the greatest power of Jesus, we must realize that He was far more than just some ordinary, strong, courageous hero.
Jesus’ majestic poise towers above all His accusers like mountaintops. On the cross, when He is mocked, riled and suffering such agonies, His self-control and courage overshadows everything else.
But, here in the Garden of Gethsemane we see Him bowed in dread agony. A fearful struggle is going on. He sweats “as it were” great drops of blood. Something more terrible than any foe He had ever met before pressed upon Him here.
When we realize the significance of the cup and analyze its contents, we will come to understand why He prayed as He did.
What was in the cup that made Jesus shrink, He had never recoiled before. Something pressed in upon Him now that was something he had never faced before. What was it? What could bring the mighty, majestic Son of God to such depths of sorrow and agony? What force or power could wring such anguish sweat from His brow?
Isaiah 53:6 gives the answer when it simply states. “The Lord [God, the Father] laid on Him [Jesus Christ] the iniquity of us all.” For by His stripes we are healed. He was crushed for our iniquities. He was wounded for our transgressions. All things that suggest that Jesus took upon the sin of the world at the Garden of Gethsemane and then was whipped and beaten for our transgressions before He went to the cross to complete out His sentence of torture and death. The “cup” was filled with the sin of the world. The guilt and pollution of all the world was there in that cup. Jesus saw the totality of sin – its length, its width, its depth – and He recoiled from it.
Just as Joseph's had tested his brothers by putting a silver cup in Benjamin's sack (his youngest brother), he found out that Judah was willing to take his younger brother's place because of the guilt that was found with this cup (Genesis 44:6-13) (Genesis 44:18-34). For Judah no doubt bared the guilt of what he did to Joseph and did not want to see his father go thru any more suffering over yet another son of whom he loved very much. In other words, Judah did not want to bare all that guilt.
In fact, there are times; I’m sure when some of us are bared the guilt or were oppressed by the weight of even our own sin. But, think the weight of the sins of the whole world that pressed down upon Christ’s soul, until He sinks lower and lower, and cries out, “Oh, Father, is there any other way, must I drink this cup of iniquity?”
2 Corinthians 5:21 - "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
1 Peter 2:24 - "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
For if Jesus did not die for us or in our place for our sin, then who exactly did he die for then?
I believe Jesus died in my place. He took the punishment of my sins when I repented of my sins and accepted as my Savior. If I sin again, I must confess of my sin so as to be forgiven of it. For 1 John 2:1 says Jesus is our advocate that we can go to if we do sin. Also, he is not only the propitation of our sins, but for the sins of the entire world. This means, that Jesus died for everyone's sins and he now offers the free gift of salvation to everyone (Who choose to abide in Him and His Word).
Sources Used:
Myself. Personally written about the three aspects of the Atonement and Joseph.
And the Garden Gethsemane aspect of this post was from:
http://www.netbiblestudy.com/00_cart...gethsemane.pdf
(Please take note that I only agree with what is written in this article here; The author of the website's views or beliefs may not reflect my own).
John 15:13 - "There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends."
Romans 5:8 - "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
A. The Substitutionary Atonement:
Matthew 26:39 - "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
When Jesus was in the garden of gethsemane, he said "let this cup pass from me". Why did Jesus say this? What was in the cup that He dreaded so much?
Well, first we need to establish that Jesus was a man’s Man. He appealed to the rough and tough fisherman along the waterfront. The rugged, wilderness man, John the Baptist, admired Him. He was man enough to single-handedly drive the moneychangers out of the Temple. If we were to consider the greatest power of Jesus, we must realize that He was far more than just some ordinary, strong, courageous hero.
Jesus’ majestic poise towers above all His accusers like mountaintops. On the cross, when He is mocked, riled and suffering such agonies, His self-control and courage overshadows everything else.
But, here in the Garden of Gethsemane we see Him bowed in dread agony. A fearful struggle is going on. He sweats “as it were” great drops of blood. Something more terrible than any foe He had ever met before pressed upon Him here.
When we realize the significance of the cup and analyze its contents, we will come to understand why He prayed as He did.
What was in the cup that made Jesus shrink, He had never recoiled before. Something pressed in upon Him now that was something he had never faced before. What was it? What could bring the mighty, majestic Son of God to such depths of sorrow and agony? What force or power could wring such anguish sweat from His brow?
Isaiah 53:6 gives the answer when it simply states. “The Lord [God, the Father] laid on Him [Jesus Christ] the iniquity of us all.” For by His stripes we are healed. He was crushed for our iniquities. He was wounded for our transgressions. All things that suggest that Jesus took upon the sin of the world at the Garden of Gethsemane and then was whipped and beaten for our transgressions before He went to the cross to complete out His sentence of torture and death. The “cup” was filled with the sin of the world. The guilt and pollution of all the world was there in that cup. Jesus saw the totality of sin – its length, its width, its depth – and He recoiled from it.
Just as Joseph's had tested his brothers by putting a silver cup in Benjamin's sack (his youngest brother), he found out that Judah was willing to take his younger brother's place because of the guilt that was found with this cup (Genesis 44:6-13) (Genesis 44:18-34). For Judah no doubt bared the guilt of what he did to Joseph and did not want to see his father go thru any more suffering over yet another son of whom he loved very much. In other words, Judah did not want to bare all that guilt.
In fact, there are times; I’m sure when some of us are bared the guilt or were oppressed by the weight of even our own sin. But, think the weight of the sins of the whole world that pressed down upon Christ’s soul, until He sinks lower and lower, and cries out, “Oh, Father, is there any other way, must I drink this cup of iniquity?”
2 Corinthians 5:21 - "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
1 Peter 2:24 - "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
For if Jesus did not die for us or in our place for our sin, then who exactly did he die for then?
I believe Jesus died in my place. He took the punishment of my sins when I repented of my sins and accepted as my Savior. If I sin again, I must confess of my sin so as to be forgiven of it. For 1 John 2:1 says Jesus is our advocate that we can go to if we do sin. Also, he is not only the propitation of our sins, but for the sins of the entire world. This means, that Jesus died for everyone's sins and he now offers the free gift of salvation to everyone (Who choose to abide in Him and His Word).
Sources Used:
Myself. Personally written about the three aspects of the Atonement and Joseph.
And the Garden Gethsemane aspect of this post was from:
http://www.netbiblestudy.com/00_cart...gethsemane.pdf
(Please take note that I only agree with what is written in this article here; The author of the website's views or beliefs may not reflect my own).
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S
Amen and halleluja.....this thread is now officially closed and locked down from any further commenting. Those of you who don;t believe that Jesus has the authority, power ability fortitude etc to protect and keep his children are completely and utterly wrong and should just go to the bar get drunk, buy a hooker and put all your money in a keno machine.
B
Faith is the action of believing unto righteousness in the heart. The word 'believe' is an action verb where the subject receives the action of the gospel when he hears it. He does nothing but hear and then believes and receives what he hears, that is faith in action. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. The first three aspects of the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy and peace ... and these are all inward fruit the believer instantly has within when he gets saved. The next three are outward toward others and the last three are toward God. Without the inward fruit of the Spirit we receive at salvation we would have no outward fruit toward others or have the a capacity to express ourselves to the living God.
We acknowledge we are sinners in need of the gospel for the remission of sins and we respond with an active faith and we are saved forever. Lots of action going on in that salvation. You have a lost sinner in darkness, the light of the gospel shines unto him, he hears it in his ear, he responds to it by faith in his heart and gets imputed righteousness with a complete salvation instantly by grace. He is translated from the power of darkness into the kingdom of God's dear Son. How much more action do you need? On top of that all of heaven rejoices with joy unspeakable and full of glory. When we get saved by grace through faith heaven has a celebration. Jason what do you think of that?
We acknowledge we are sinners in need of the gospel for the remission of sins and we respond with an active faith and we are saved forever. Lots of action going on in that salvation. You have a lost sinner in darkness, the light of the gospel shines unto him, he hears it in his ear, he responds to it by faith in his heart and gets imputed righteousness with a complete salvation instantly by grace. He is translated from the power of darkness into the kingdom of God's dear Son. How much more action do you need? On top of that all of heaven rejoices with joy unspeakable and full of glory. When we get saved by grace through faith heaven has a celebration. Jason what do you think of that?
Ransom is simply a term that relates to the notion of setting one free whom has been taken hostage.
When we first sinned against God we came under condemnation. We not only spiritually died but we also wrought in ourselves a guilty conscience which simply cannot be undone when the light of truth is revealed. This is why no sinner can stand before a holy God in all truth and not bow the knee and not be shamed. It is impossible to serve let alone be reconciled to God in this state. A crime once done cannot be undone.
That in essence is the problem with humanity. Not only are sinners separated from God due to their sin but they are guilty and condemned. Not only that but enslavement to sinning occurs also. Sin works more sin and bondage is the result as sin hardens the heart to conviction. God cannot and will not forgive anyone who is still in rebellion to Him, to do so would undermine justice for God's grace would become license. It is similar to how a wife could not possibly we reconciled to her husband whilst he is still engaged in an adulterous relationship.
The cross is the means to extract one from the adulterous relationship with sin and the New Covenant is the means to keep one from going back into an adulterous relationship.
The ransom Jesus paid is a figure of expression for Him simply "doing something" on our behalf. If the ransom was paid to anyone it was paid to us for we are the one's who benefit in all aspects. The sin offering was offered to God because that "offering" of Jesus is what God ordained would put into effect the New Covenant. This is what the Bible teaches in Hebrews. Jesus had to die in order to put the New Covenant into effect.
Go through all the Bible including Isaiah 53 and Romans chapter 3 and can you honestly say that you see Penal Substitution there? You cannot if you are completely honest and that is why such a notion is of only a recent invention.
Bearing our sins is not equal to being deemed guilty by God and punished in our place. Think about that for a minute. What kind of justice punishes an innocent so that the guilty can go free? Not to mention if a penalty for a crime is meted out then that crime is not forgiven, it is punished. Common sense destroys Penal Substitution very easily.
People believe in the Penal Model because they want to, that is all. Not a single Penal Substitution proponent will ever have a reasonable answer as to how they reconcile "forgiveness of sin" and "sin being paid for." One simply cannot have a "fine paid for" and at the same time a "fine forgiven." If one throws reason ouit the window and says they can then they will obviously believe all manner of illogical and unreasonable nonsense, thus there is no point trying to reason with that person.
Go and read the book of Ruth and you will see a redemption that is a picture of why Jesus died. Read it several times and dwell on it. Basically we forfeited out inheritance through sinning against God. Jesus as our KINSMAN did not forfeit the inheritance and we are redeemed back into favour with God THROUGH Jesus Christ.
THROUGH Jesus Christ means the SPIRIT OF HIS LIFE. It is an abiding state of faithfulness where we have pure hearts. An understanding of this is what Satan has destroyed in the minds of people. The Bible literally states that Jesus gave Himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and make us pure where we would be zealous for good works. That is not Penal Substitution. Penal Substitution is purely forensic in its application.
Many people prefer a positional or forensic salvation because it means they can sin and not surely die. It is the perfect deception. This is the kind of salvation taught by the Gnostics in ancient times. In the present day the doctrinal mechanism is slightly different but the underlying philosophy is the same.
Let's take a quick look at Romans 3:24-25...
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Jesus manifested the righteousness of the law to mankind by walking by a faith that works by love. Love fulfills the law and remember Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law but fulfil.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: The same righteousness is manifest in us through the faith of Jesus Christ when we believe. Compare this verse to this...
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. The WALKING AFTER THE SPIRIT cannot be disconnected from NO CONDEMNATION. The righteousness of the law is to be fulfilled in us. This is how the "righteousness of God" (descriptive of a standard) come upon us. It is not positional but a manifest reality.
One has to twist the Bible and ignore Romans 8:2 and 8:4 in order to deny this. Real faith is inclusive of a faithful walk, it cannot be separated. Obedience and faith cannot be separated, if there is no obedience there is no faith. That is why James connects faith to deeds for deeds are the fruit of a genuine faith, a faith that works by love. It is impossible to love and work ill at the same time. It is impossible to love and murder, lie, cheat and steal. Willful sin is the opposite of love, they do not mix.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; The context is the "people" of both the Jewish and Gentile nations.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Justification is connected to "redemption IN Jesus Christ." This is why Paul later writes that we are saved from the law of sin and death by the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. That is why Paul later writes that there is no condemnation upon those who WALK after the Spirit. Being IN Christ is an ABIDING reality of walking with God. That is why any salvation message that argues in favour of being justified whilst still in rebellion is false.One cannot be in rebellion to God and be IN Christ at the same time.One cannot receive the implanted word and reject it at the same time. It is one or the other, not both.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Propitiation means "Mercy Seat" or the means by which "sin is expiated." Compare this verse to this...Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
The Old Testament sacrificial system could never take away sins. Why? Because the Old Covenant was premised on the Law or an outward rule set. There was no redemption from bondage and thus the conscience could never be clean. People would approach God via the sacrificial system for a temporary reprieve but it was something they had to do over and over again.
Now look at what it says in Hebrews...
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
How are we perfected for ever by the one offering? THROUGH ENTERING INTO COVENANT WITH GOD.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Read the above several times. The death of Christ has NOTHING to do with Penal Substitution. The death of Christ has NOTHING to do with trusting in some legal provision which serves as a cloak for iniquity. The death of Christ has EVERYTHING to do with approaching God in repentance and faith with a TRUE HEART (ala 1Joh 1:7-10) and then being CLEANSED of our past sins once and for all having been redeemed from the bondage of sin via the law being written on our hearts.
This is why there is a warning about willful sin after this truly takes place.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Willful sin is to trample this offer and treat it as something cheap.
If I were to willfully choose to do evil I would be instantly condemned. Now that is not to say that mercy is not there to be found BUT to automatically think that mercy is to be found would be PRESUMPTUOUS and God will not be mocked. We are not to come to God when we feel like it after having our fill of sin, NO, we are to be contrite and broken hearted where we truly have forsaken our sin because we HATE it because we KNOW how evil it is. There is where godly sorrow working repentance comes in.
Now back to Romans...
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. The righteousness of God was declared through Jesus Christ and the sin offering (which enacted the New Covenant) that God is is just in forgiving sin because the root of iniquity in the heart is dealt with through through the redemption via the blood.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. There is no boasting because it is not us to brought in the New Covenant, which is the means to redeem sinners.
Remember the boast was this...
Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
That was the boast of the Jews. Paul is giving emphasis to the fact that there is no boast in the works of the law in the New Covenant. Paul is not saying DO NOTHING and NO WORK NEEDED. The work needed is the "work of faith" which is simply "obedience from the heart."
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. The faith that justifies is a faith that uphold the law. The ONLY kind of faith that upholds the law is a faith that works by love.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
God reckons FAITH AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
om 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
I really do not know how to explain any of this clearer.
Penal Substitution is simply not in the Bible, it is a fiction wrought in the imaginations of men and it completely undermines what the Bible actually teaches about the death of Christ.
I suppose if people want to cling to the Penal Model then go right ahead. The ancient Pharisees clung to their religion too and perished in their sins.
When we first sinned against God we came under condemnation. We not only spiritually died but we also wrought in ourselves a guilty conscience which simply cannot be undone when the light of truth is revealed. This is why no sinner can stand before a holy God in all truth and not bow the knee and not be shamed. It is impossible to serve let alone be reconciled to God in this state. A crime once done cannot be undone.
That in essence is the problem with humanity. Not only are sinners separated from God due to their sin but they are guilty and condemned. Not only that but enslavement to sinning occurs also. Sin works more sin and bondage is the result as sin hardens the heart to conviction. God cannot and will not forgive anyone who is still in rebellion to Him, to do so would undermine justice for God's grace would become license. It is similar to how a wife could not possibly we reconciled to her husband whilst he is still engaged in an adulterous relationship.
The cross is the means to extract one from the adulterous relationship with sin and the New Covenant is the means to keep one from going back into an adulterous relationship.
The ransom Jesus paid is a figure of expression for Him simply "doing something" on our behalf. If the ransom was paid to anyone it was paid to us for we are the one's who benefit in all aspects. The sin offering was offered to God because that "offering" of Jesus is what God ordained would put into effect the New Covenant. This is what the Bible teaches in Hebrews. Jesus had to die in order to put the New Covenant into effect.
Go through all the Bible including Isaiah 53 and Romans chapter 3 and can you honestly say that you see Penal Substitution there? You cannot if you are completely honest and that is why such a notion is of only a recent invention.
Bearing our sins is not equal to being deemed guilty by God and punished in our place. Think about that for a minute. What kind of justice punishes an innocent so that the guilty can go free? Not to mention if a penalty for a crime is meted out then that crime is not forgiven, it is punished. Common sense destroys Penal Substitution very easily.
People believe in the Penal Model because they want to, that is all. Not a single Penal Substitution proponent will ever have a reasonable answer as to how they reconcile "forgiveness of sin" and "sin being paid for." One simply cannot have a "fine paid for" and at the same time a "fine forgiven." If one throws reason ouit the window and says they can then they will obviously believe all manner of illogical and unreasonable nonsense, thus there is no point trying to reason with that person.
Go and read the book of Ruth and you will see a redemption that is a picture of why Jesus died. Read it several times and dwell on it. Basically we forfeited out inheritance through sinning against God. Jesus as our KINSMAN did not forfeit the inheritance and we are redeemed back into favour with God THROUGH Jesus Christ.
THROUGH Jesus Christ means the SPIRIT OF HIS LIFE. It is an abiding state of faithfulness where we have pure hearts. An understanding of this is what Satan has destroyed in the minds of people. The Bible literally states that Jesus gave Himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and make us pure where we would be zealous for good works. That is not Penal Substitution. Penal Substitution is purely forensic in its application.
Many people prefer a positional or forensic salvation because it means they can sin and not surely die. It is the perfect deception. This is the kind of salvation taught by the Gnostics in ancient times. In the present day the doctrinal mechanism is slightly different but the underlying philosophy is the same.
Let's take a quick look at Romans 3:24-25...
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Jesus manifested the righteousness of the law to mankind by walking by a faith that works by love. Love fulfills the law and remember Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law but fulfil.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: The same righteousness is manifest in us through the faith of Jesus Christ when we believe. Compare this verse to this...
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. The WALKING AFTER THE SPIRIT cannot be disconnected from NO CONDEMNATION. The righteousness of the law is to be fulfilled in us. This is how the "righteousness of God" (descriptive of a standard) come upon us. It is not positional but a manifest reality.
One has to twist the Bible and ignore Romans 8:2 and 8:4 in order to deny this. Real faith is inclusive of a faithful walk, it cannot be separated. Obedience and faith cannot be separated, if there is no obedience there is no faith. That is why James connects faith to deeds for deeds are the fruit of a genuine faith, a faith that works by love. It is impossible to love and work ill at the same time. It is impossible to love and murder, lie, cheat and steal. Willful sin is the opposite of love, they do not mix.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; The context is the "people" of both the Jewish and Gentile nations.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Justification is connected to "redemption IN Jesus Christ." This is why Paul later writes that we are saved from the law of sin and death by the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. That is why Paul later writes that there is no condemnation upon those who WALK after the Spirit. Being IN Christ is an ABIDING reality of walking with God. That is why any salvation message that argues in favour of being justified whilst still in rebellion is false.One cannot be in rebellion to God and be IN Christ at the same time.One cannot receive the implanted word and reject it at the same time. It is one or the other, not both.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Propitiation means "Mercy Seat" or the means by which "sin is expiated." Compare this verse to this...Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
The Old Testament sacrificial system could never take away sins. Why? Because the Old Covenant was premised on the Law or an outward rule set. There was no redemption from bondage and thus the conscience could never be clean. People would approach God via the sacrificial system for a temporary reprieve but it was something they had to do over and over again.
Now look at what it says in Hebrews...
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
How are we perfected for ever by the one offering? THROUGH ENTERING INTO COVENANT WITH GOD.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Read the above several times. The death of Christ has NOTHING to do with Penal Substitution. The death of Christ has NOTHING to do with trusting in some legal provision which serves as a cloak for iniquity. The death of Christ has EVERYTHING to do with approaching God in repentance and faith with a TRUE HEART (ala 1Joh 1:7-10) and then being CLEANSED of our past sins once and for all having been redeemed from the bondage of sin via the law being written on our hearts.
This is why there is a warning about willful sin after this truly takes place.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Willful sin is to trample this offer and treat it as something cheap.
If I were to willfully choose to do evil I would be instantly condemned. Now that is not to say that mercy is not there to be found BUT to automatically think that mercy is to be found would be PRESUMPTUOUS and God will not be mocked. We are not to come to God when we feel like it after having our fill of sin, NO, we are to be contrite and broken hearted where we truly have forsaken our sin because we HATE it because we KNOW how evil it is. There is where godly sorrow working repentance comes in.
Now back to Romans...
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. The righteousness of God was declared through Jesus Christ and the sin offering (which enacted the New Covenant) that God is is just in forgiving sin because the root of iniquity in the heart is dealt with through through the redemption via the blood.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. There is no boasting because it is not us to brought in the New Covenant, which is the means to redeem sinners.
Remember the boast was this...
Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
That was the boast of the Jews. Paul is giving emphasis to the fact that there is no boast in the works of the law in the New Covenant. Paul is not saying DO NOTHING and NO WORK NEEDED. The work needed is the "work of faith" which is simply "obedience from the heart."
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. The faith that justifies is a faith that uphold the law. The ONLY kind of faith that upholds the law is a faith that works by love.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
God reckons FAITH AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
om 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
I really do not know how to explain any of this clearer.
Penal Substitution is simply not in the Bible, it is a fiction wrought in the imaginations of men and it completely undermines what the Bible actually teaches about the death of Christ.
I suppose if people want to cling to the Penal Model then go right ahead. The ancient Pharisees clung to their religion too and perished in their sins.
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S
This dead horse you're beating is starting to stink to high heaven. I dont even read your posts anymore...cuz they all keep saying the same thing. We get what you believe and aside from 1 or 2 fellow dead horse violators you ain't gonna change anyone's mind. It's to the point that even on the far outer reaches of the universe chance that you are right about your jacked up convoluted theology, people wouldn't listen to you anyhow. I know that as for me...I am putting you on ignore.
I believe Christ imputes His righteousness to a person when they repent of their sins (or admit they are a sinner) and accept Christ. It's how the thief on the cross was saved. For he admitted that he was a sinner and asked Jesus to remember Him when He would come into His kingdom (i.e. so as to be saved or spared). So yes, a person can admit they are a sinner and accept Christ to be saved. But what of the person who has to live out their faith? Well, this type of person has to continue to abide in Christ and allow His righteousness to continue to flow thru their life. For it is Christ (God) that works in them. If they choose to go back and willfully sin, there remains no more sacrifice for sins unless they confess of their sin so as to be forgiven of their sin. They have an advocate named Jesus Christ who can cleanse them of sin. For Jesus is our Heavenly High Priest, too. We go to him if we need to continue to be cleansed. For we are to conform to the image of Jesus Christ. If one is not conforming to Christ, then they are rebelling against Him. Nobody can sin and still be saved. It doesn't work like that.
In that Jesus forgives continually, having initially forgiven once for all, - 'he who is bathed needs only to wash his feet'.
The point here is not that if we do not forgive everyone for what they have done against us if they repent, then we will be lost. It means that we will have no confidence of forgiveness for our daily sins whilst we are unforgiving towards others who have sought forgiveness from us. It is part of God's chastening.
This is an argument against hatred. John is pointing out that to hate is like murdering (in accord with the Sermon on the Mount). But he is actually not denying that a murderer can be forgiven. We know that murderers can be forgiven. What he is doing is bringing out the heinousness of hatred. It is not intended to be applied as though it were a strict law.
YOU are the one who breaks this command. We ALL sin daily, mostly unconsciously. YOU sin daily but won't admit it. It is you who makes God a liar. If we had to be perfect when we died (before He actually makes us perfect). Goodbye Heaven.
All fit into the same pattern. God's advice and warning to His children.
The point here is not that if we do not forgive everyone for what they have done against us if they repent, then we will be lost. It means that we will have no confidence of forgiveness for our daily sins whilst we are unforgiving towards others who have sought forgiveness from us. It is part of God's chastening.
This is an argument against hatred. John is pointing out that to hate is like murdering (in accord with the Sermon on the Mount). But he is actually not denying that a murderer can be forgiven. We know that murderers can be forgiven. What he is doing is bringing out the heinousness of hatred. It is not intended to be applied as though it were a strict law.
YOU are the one who breaks this command. We ALL sin daily, mostly unconsciously. YOU sin daily but won't admit it. It is you who makes God a liar. If we had to be perfect when we died (before He actually makes us perfect). Goodbye Heaven.
All fit into the same pattern. God's advice and warning to His children.
B
The believer has the freedom to go back into sin and if he does he will be miserable, chastened, disciplined, scourged and even suffer the sin unto physical death. The Holy Spirit will be grieved in his life and he will not be blessed in his deeds. His sin has nothing to do with his salvation but everything to do with his fellowship he has with Christ through the Spirit within that salvation. The believer is hid with Christ in God positionally and sin can not take him out of that position for he was put there by grace.
No one can undo what God has done through grace. No one can undo what Christ did on the cross for the sin and sins of men. No one can stop the blood from cleansing a man's sin and no one can stop Christ from interceding for those who belong to him, his purchased possession. Once we have been purchased by that blood God does not put us back on that slave market of sin. The wrath and condemnation is gone and will never return despite our sin, even if we willfully sin (God forbid) and do that which is displeasing to him. God will correct us but does not deal with us according to our sin or iniquity. God deals with us through his Son and through the death, burial and resurrection of his Son.
No one can undo what God has done through grace. No one can undo what Christ did on the cross for the sin and sins of men. No one can stop the blood from cleansing a man's sin and no one can stop Christ from interceding for those who belong to him, his purchased possession. Once we have been purchased by that blood God does not put us back on that slave market of sin. The wrath and condemnation is gone and will never return despite our sin, even if we willfully sin (God forbid) and do that which is displeasing to him. God will correct us but does not deal with us according to our sin or iniquity. God deals with us through his Son and through the death, burial and resurrection of his Son.
The washing of the feet is done because they are preaching the gospel. The gospel includes obedience to God's righteousness by the teachings of Jesus Christ. If one is ignoring the teachings of Jesus Christ then they are preaching another Jesus. Jesus taught us many commands. He said if you love me, keep my commandments.
No. You are not reading and believing Matthew 6:15 in what it says. It says, if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive you. Nowhere does it say this involves just the physical world. For Jesus did not say.... if you do not forgive.... your Father will chasten you until you then will forgive others.
No. John says one does not have eternal life in them if they are a murderer. John is not talking about someone who used to be a murderer and has repented of their murder. John is taking about someone who is actively still a murderer. He is saying that someone who is presently a murderer does not have eternal life abiding in them. Unless of course you want to propose that their are saved axe murderers out there or something.
Hate is then put in place for murder. John says one is in darkness if they hate their brother. So no. There is no light or salvation in a person if they hate their brother or if they murder them.
No, not all believers sin daily. Can believers struggle with sin? Yes. But believers do not think they will be a slave to sin the rest of their lives. That would be making an allowance for evil. Just as a drunk who says he can drink as much as he wants on his road to being sober free. Paul says you are either a slave to righteousness or a slave to sin. Jesus said you can only serve two masters. 1 John 1:9 clearly says you need to confess your sin in order to be forgiven of your sin. There is no such thing as having a mental acknowledgement alone on Jesus (While you ignore God's moral laws) so as to be saved. Such a belief is dark and evil on so many levels.
No, Paul lists various sins that will cause anyone not to inherit the Kingdom of God. He addresses these sins to believers and not unbelievers.
No. You are not reading and believing Matthew 6:15 in what it says. It says, if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive you. Nowhere does it say this involves just the physical world. For Jesus did not say.... if you do not forgive.... your Father will chasten you until you then will forgive others.
No. John says one does not have eternal life in them if they are a murderer. John is not talking about someone who used to be a murderer and has repented of their murder. John is taking about someone who is actively still a murderer. He is saying that someone who is presently a murderer does not have eternal life abiding in them. Unless of course you want to propose that their are saved axe murderers out there or something.
Hate is then put in place for murder. John says one is in darkness if they hate their brother. So no. There is no light or salvation in a person if they hate their brother or if they murder them.
No, not all believers sin daily. Can believers struggle with sin? Yes. But believers do not think they will be a slave to sin the rest of their lives. That would be making an allowance for evil. Just as a drunk who says he can drink as much as he wants on his road to being sober free. Paul says you are either a slave to righteousness or a slave to sin. Jesus said you can only serve two masters. 1 John 1:9 clearly says you need to confess your sin in order to be forgiven of your sin. There is no such thing as having a mental acknowledgement alone on Jesus (While you ignore God's moral laws) so as to be saved. Such a belief is dark and evil on so many levels.
No, Paul lists various sins that will cause anyone not to inherit the Kingdom of God. He addresses these sins to believers and not unbelievers.
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