Paul was not qualified to be an apostle

[Dwark]

1. Jesus NEVER corrected anything Moses presented in the Law. What he often corrected was the Pharisee's misunderstanding and perversion of the things Moses wrote.

Whoa, are we changing the goal line now? Who was talking about "the law" and whatever thousand ways that gets defined. We were talking "holy spirit inspired, from the mouth of God, no error" scripture.

I will surmise and then you can fill in your view, which I do not understand.

Moses said in Deut 24:1When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house,

Moses said you could divorce because you found something displeasing about your wife.

God said in Matthew 19: 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery.”

Moses said you could divorce because you found something displeasing about your wife.
Jesus said you could divorce only on the grounds of unchaste.

Paul said in 1 Cor 7: 15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances;

Moses said you could divorce because you found something displeasing about your wife.
Jesus said you could divorce only on the grounds of unchaste.
Paul says you can divorce if your partner is an unbeliever who leaves.

It is very clear that your problem is simply that you do not know how to approach this book. I would like to try to help you with this, if you are not too proud.

Lets start with the issue above.

Moses said you could divorce because you found something displeasing about your wife.
Jesus said you could divorce only on the grounds of unchaste.
Paul says you can divorce if your partner is an unbeliever who leaves.

Maybe you should start a new thread though.

 

[oldhermit]

Lets start with the issue above.

No. This is not where we need to begin. If you want to learn to read this book we are going to have to start with learning to understand the role of this book in human experience. I am not sure you are going to be willing to do this because it is going to require some things from you that I am not sure you are going to be willing to do.

 

[Dwark]

No. This is not where we need to begin. If you want to learn to read this book we are going to have to start with learning to understand the role of this book in human experience. I am not sure you are going to be willing to do this because it is going to require some things from you that I am not sure you are going to be willing to do.

As you wish.

It is not necessary for me to convince you.

It is apparent for all to see.

Good luck.

 

[Kerry]

To the OP. Lets see Jesus appeared to Him knocked him off his horse and laid prostrate on the ground. A pharisee of pharisees and a lover of the law found grace, blinded by the light of God and then filled with the Holy Spirit. Driven to preach the gospel, stoned and left for dead, ship wrecked and in sea for two nights, imprisoned for preaching the gospel, called to to heaven and sent back, bitten by a deadly snake and shook it off in the fire, and finally got his head chopped for the gospel and he is not qualified are you?

 

[oldhermit]

As you wish.

It is not necessary for me to convince you.

It is apparent for all to see.

Good luck.

I do not think you quite understand.

1. I am a teacher. That is what I do. You are going to have to be willing to accept the teacher / student relationship. I am the teacher, you are the student. I teach, you listen.
2. You are going to have to be willing to set aside everything you think you know about this book for the time being.
3. You are going to have to set aside for the moment everything you think you know about the concept of reality and causality.
4. I will accept no argumentation. Feel free to ask clarifying questions. If you do not understand something initially, be patient. I do not expect you to understand everything I show you. This will take a lot of time.

 

[psychomom]

I was going to start a topic last night a few times, but I couldn't find the time to pour out the subject matter. Contrition and the two natures revealed n Scripture were ones I was in consideration over. Show me in the bible where God requires one to be contrite to approach Him or receive the free gift from Him by hearing the Gospel of Grace. The doctrine of contrition is man-made practice in religious attemps of piety and penance, nothing to do with God's requirement to trust His Son for the forgiveness of all our sins. Contrition is, in fact, not a part of sin nature or a part our new nature as saved persons. This is why, our new nature does not know sin, cannot know sin. And, sin nature does not have shame or feel guilt. So, contrition is what, it is an affect of sin in the flesh. These are my own thoughts of course. I came to understand this after my salvation. I do not suffer with contrition anymore, it is not good, right or healthy. It is a form of terror. Mind terror, Luther wrote a bit about it.

Psalm 51 springs to mind...

v. 17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

and 2 Cor. 7:8-11...

For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it—for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while—
I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what avenging of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter.

 

[TaylorTG]

I do not think you quite understand.

1. I am a teacher. That is what I do. You are going to have to be willing to accept the teacher / student relationship. I am the teacher, you are the student. I teach, you listen.
2. You are going to have to be willing to set aside everything you think you know about this book for the time being.
3. You are going to have to set aside for the moment everything you think you know about the concept of reality and causality.
4. I will accept no argumentation. Feel free to ask clarifying questions. If you do not understand something initially, be patient. I do not expect you to understand everything I show you. This will take a lot of time.

I don't think I would pick you as my home room teacher!

 

[Karraster]

I don't think I would pick you as my home room teacher!

Those who sneer at others don't like to be corrected, and they won't ask help from someone with sense" (Proverbs 15:12 CEV).

 

[Ariel82]

Re: You Can Change it Like this

I should have put, for the title;

Paul was over qualified to be an apostle.

yeah it would have saved a lot of misunderstanding.



don't really agree with either statement but I see the distinction you were trying to make.

However we have these verses:

1 Corinthians 1
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”[SUP][a][/SUP]

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[SUP][b][/SUP] foolishness, [SUP]24 [/SUP]but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

 

[oldhermit]

I don't think I would pick you as my home room teacher!

LOL. I'm not really as mean as all of that. I have never taught anyone but adults so that is a little different world than what you may be used to. I engage everyone differently depending on the need and the attitude of the student.

 

[john832]

I am always amazed at the people who feel comfortable attempting to override the decisions of the Almighty.

Hmmm, Christ, the head of the church, didn't know what He was doing?

MBFM

 

[Dwark]

I do not think you quite understand.

1. I am a teacher. That is what I do. You are going to have to be willing to accept the teacher / student relationship. I am the teacher, you are the student. I teach, you listen.
2. You are going to have to be willing to set aside everything you think you know about this book for the time being.
3. You are going to have to set aside for the moment everything you think you know about the concept of reality and causality.
4. I will accept no argumentation. Feel free to ask clarifying questions. If you do not understand something initially, be patient. I do not expect you to understand everything I show you. This will take a lot of time.

God tells us, as was demonstrated, that not everything in scripture is "from the mouth of God". Jesus demonstrates that pretty plainly.

If you want to instruct on that, please do.

This is a Protestant heresy that is needed to support a number of other doctrinal heresies; Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola misnomer because there is more than one Sola and Sola mean alone, The heretical doctrine of justification-(like you could stand before God justified, what spheres one must have.)

 

[oldhermit]

God tells us, as was demonstrated, that not everything in scripture is "from the mouth of God". Jesus demonstrates that pretty plainly.

If you want to instruct on that, please do.

This is a Protestant heresy that is needed to support a number of other doctrinal heresies; Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola misnomer because there is more than one Sola and Sola mean alone, The heretical doctrine of justification-(like you could stand before God justified, what spheres one must have.)

I knew you would not be able to do this. If you are not willing to accept the terms then I am afraid this will be a waste of my time. It seems fruitless for us to continue this discussion since there is no common frame of reference and there can be no syntheses between our approaches to the biblical text.

 

[The_highwayman]

I do not think you quite understand.

1. I am a teacher. That is what I do. You are going to have to be willing to accept the teacher / student relationship. I am the teacher, you are the student. I teach, you listen.
2. You are going to have to be willing to set aside everything you think you know about this book for the time being.
3. You are going to have to set aside for the moment everything you think you know about the concept of reality and causality.
4. I will accept no argumentation. Feel free to ask clarifying questions. If you do not understand something initially, be patient. I do not expect you to understand everything I show you. This will take a lot of time.

My what big egos we have Hermie...lay down it stud, the Holy Ghost is the true teacher and not you....

 

[LovePink]

Psalm 51 springs to mind...

v. 17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

and 2 Cor. 7:8-11...

For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it—for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while—
I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what avenging of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter.

Lovely post. I understand this. But, Salvation and the forgiveness of sin/sins is not based on some idea as put forth by the the theology of men with the doctrine of contrition. When were all of your sins paid for? And, when were all of your sins forgiven?

 

[LovePink]

Re: You Can Change it Like this

yeah it would have saved a lot of misunderstanding.



don't really agree with either statement but I see the distinction you were trying to make.


Cool, thx.

 

[LovePink]

Re: You Can Change it Like this

1 Corinthians 1
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

And this is one of the reasons why using a King James Bible is important to me. Are you saved, or being saved or both? I was just about to make a second post asking psychomom that very question, but then I let it go, started to skim the thread and here you post a corruption of truth.

 

[LovePink]

Psalm 51 springs to mind...

v. 17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

and 2 Cor. 7:8-11...

For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it—for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while—
I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what avenging of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter.

Oh, wait, I just saw the bolding of the text you were making this a response to, oh really ps 51 shows a requirement to approach God. Paul is speaking to saved people there in 2 Cor. My post was in response to a context of hearing the gospel of grace and I am not sure now what you are getting at. Maybe the, boy I don't even want to guess. I will wait on you to clarify.

 

[iamsoandso]

There was no Strong's back in the day of Christ.

This link is a good start.

History & Meaning of the word "Apostle" - Ecclesium Website

[/INDENT]

I would agree.



God in the flesh, Jesus Christ, a Jew and a Rabbi sent Paul on a mission, but we are not told that he named him an apostle. You cannot just add to scripture.

Jesus told the 12 whom he selected as apostles that they would sit on the 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes. God did not say 13, God did not say Paul was a switch hitter, God did not say anyone else was an apostle.



Ethnocentricism is something that can hardly be helped. It is hard to step out of a paradigm.

yes this was also my thinking,,,that is Paul was teaching "Greeks" who were accustomed to the word deffanition in the Greek language they spoke so they would have had no idea if a duel meaning was being applied to a word from their own language. and so if Paul(apostle to the gentiles) was then using it as a(christian specific meaning) as if it was a "title/office ect." he would have explained it in his letters to the gentiles.

on the other hand the times it is used in the letters written by the other apostles(written to the Jews,matt.mark peter,john ect.) then the "Jews" who were reading or listening to sermons preached would have perceived this in reverse,,,they would have thought "he is using a Greek word that means x and he is explaining a Jewish religious term meaning y in Hebrew" but then again if any of these used the word and meant to apply a different definition they would have stated it.

i notice though in Hebrews 3;1 it does not use the form "apostolos" it uses the form "apostolon" this may be due to the sentence structure that is they are both from the same word. this it seems is singular verses plural but also supports that Jesus was also sent with a specific task,salvation,and then they were sent by him to deliver the Gospel of it.

 

[Ariel82]

Re: You Can Change it Like this

1 Corinthians 1
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

And this is one of the reasons why using a King James Bible is important to me. Are you saved, or being saved or both? I was just about to make a second post asking psychomom that very question, but then I let it go, started to skim the thread and here you post a corruption of truth.

some days I just wonder if you have a reading comprehension problem.....

So can you clearly state what is different between the message between these words:


1 Corinthians 1
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


and these:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

If not than I'll leave you to continue your attempts at communication.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]That no flesh should glory in his presence.

there is the King James per request.

do you even get the message being communicated or did you stumble upon an imagined offense?