Paul's 4th Missionary Journey (to Spain)

Widdekind · Jun 12, 2013

Arthur Ogden argues Crucifixion = Thursday (6 April) 30 AD; 3 days = pre-dusk Thursday, dusk Thursday to dusk Friday, to dusk Saturday, to Sunday morning = 3 nights (Th/F/S) + 3 days (Th% / F/S / Su%). Geza Vermes also dated the Crucifixion to 30 AD.

The Crucifixion Date

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[TD="colspan: 3"]This study challenges the Bible student to examine ALL the evidence found in God's word. This file consists of an article examining the year in which our Lord was crucified and a couple of outlines examining the day of the week on which He died.[/TD]
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Widdekind · Jun 12, 2013

Bible Diagrams - Gospel of John Timeline

Gospel of John describes events, in the ministry of Jesus, from His Baptism, through 3 Passovers, the last (3rd) = Crucifixion. So, Jesus' ministry was at least two full years, plus some time in Galilee, after being Baptized by John, but before taking a trip to Jerusalem, and cleansing the temple there, the first time, in John 2.

Widdekind · Jun 12, 2013

Bible Diagrams - Gospel of Mark Timeline

John 10 = Jesus, in Jerusalem @ 2nd Passover, declares Himself "Son of God", then flees "beyond the Jordan where John had been Baptizing"

"beyond the Jordan" = Decapolis = 10 cities = Mark 7 ~ Matt 15. (Note, Matthew skips over the visit to the Decapolis, after the healing of the daughter of the Phoenician woman, but before the feeding of the 5000; Matt simply states, that Jesus left Tyre / Sidon, and went around the Sea of Galilee; Mark adds the detail, of the specific stop in the Decapolis. But Matt is completely compatible, with Mark, the latter filling in extra details left out of the former.)

So,

John 10 = Mark 7 = Matt 15

between the 2nd - 3rd Passovers in Jesus' ministry, from 29-30 AD. For some reason, Mt/Mk/Lk omit many details, of the first two years of Jesus' ministry, perhaps because what Jesus taught had driven even many Jewish Disciples away (John 6). So, the Synoptic Gospels present a more basic & popular portrait, whereas John describes some of the harder teachings.

PlainWord · Jun 12, 2013

Jesus was crucified on April 3, 0033 AD Gregorian calendar. It has been proven, see The Day of the Cross. The below arguments are most compelling!! To summarize the site I've pasted the below in red. please see my thoughts at the bottom:

By law and custom, the Jewish people of Jesus' day took the Sabbath as a day of complete rest. Because no work could be done on the Sabbath, which we call Saturday, Friday came to be known as Preparation Day. It was a day when food and other things needed for Saturday were prepared in advance. This is our first clue to the date of the crucifixion, because all four Gospels state that Jesus was crucified on Preparation Day, a Friday. This is also the common consensus of the Church Fathers and scholars throughout church history.

The Gospels also record that the crucifixion occurred the day before the Passover festival. This is a second important clue, because it gives us a solid connection with the ancient Jewish calendar system. Passover always begins on the 14th day of the Jewish lunar month of Nisan. (Nisan 14 is in the Spring, which is why Easter is celebrated then). By Judean tradition, Passover begins at twilight, the dividing line between Nisan 14 and 15.

On the Jewish calendar (and on ours) a numbered day of the month may fall on any day of the week. For example, in one year your birthday might fall on Tuesday, in the next year it might fall on Thursday. This "float" among days of the week is why this second clue is so powerful. Putting these two Biblical puzzle pieces together, we see that the crucifixion must have occurred in a year when Nisan 14 happened to fall on a Friday, Preparation Day. That narrows things down considerably.

The Year. Ancient non-Biblical historians record that Jesus was condemned to death by Pontius Pilate. Pilate was Roman procurator of Judea during the years 26 AD through 36 AD. This limits our search for a date to those years. In "Setting the Stage" we found that Jesus was born in 3/2 BC. And there are also important Biblical clues: the Book of Luke records that Jesus began his public ministry when he "was about 30 years old", and the Book of John records three annual Passovers during Jesus' ministry. Taken together, these puzzle pieces add to a crucifixion date in the early 30's, AD. During those years, Nisan 14 fell on a Friday, Preparation Day, twice: on April 7 of 30 AD and April 3 of 33 AD. To help us chose between those two dates, there is ample and fascinating evidence.

The Book of Daniel, Chapter 9:

"21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, "Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed...
...

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven `sevens', and sixty-two `sevens'... 26 After the sixty-two `sevens', the Anointed One will be cut off..."

The word "Christ" means "anointed one." For this and other reasons, most commentators conclude that Daniel received a prediction of Messiah's coming. More than that, Daniel was told the date of Messiah's death, the date he would be "cut off." That's the date we seek for our astronomical investigation. So, can the numeric symbolism of Daniel's "sevens" be deciphered? Perhaps it is not terribly complicated.

Taking a direct approach, let us assume that the "sevens" are seven years. Gabriel told Daniel that after the decree to rebuild, there would be "seven sevens" (which is 49), plus "sixty-two sevens" (which is 434). After these 483 years, the Anointed One would be cut off. If the prophecy is true, this would be the year of the crucifixion.

Remember that in ancient times, our modern calendar system was not in use. In other prophetic passages a year of 360 days is used. To convert to our modern system which uses the longer solar year, we must divide by the time it takes for Earth to orbit the Sun, which is 365.24 days. This yields 476 years on our calendar.

We now have a number of years, but when do we start the countdown? Gabriel said to count "[f]rom the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem." When was that? The prophet Nehemiah records such a decree, and he dates it as the twentieth year of Artaxerxes. On our calendar, that date is 444 BC. Counting 476 years from 444 BC, and remembering that there is no year numbered "zero" AD, we discover what Gabriel told Daniel: the Messiah would be cut off in 33 AD.

Joel said there would be astronomical signs. And now Peter says, "you've seen them." What were they?
"The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood..." The gospels do recount that the sun was darkened on the day of the crucifixion from noon until 3 in the afternoon. Ancient non-Biblical sources confirm this. Phlegon Trallianus records in his history, Olympiades:

"In the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad [AD 32-33], a failure of the Sun took place greater than any previously known, and night came on at the sixth hour of the day [noon], so that stars actually appeared in the sky; and a great earthquake took place in Bithynia and overthrew the greater part of Niceaea," obviously not a simple astronomical event.

But what about the bloody moon?

The answer to that question fixes the date of the crucifixion with precision. Beyond reasonable doubt, in fact, because a "blood moon" has a specific meaning. In ancient literature, not only the Bible, it means a lunar eclipse. Why bloody? Because when the moon is in eclipse it is in the Earth's shadow. It receives no direct light from the sun, but is lit only by the dim light refracted and red-shifted by the Earth's atmosphere. The moon in eclipse does glow a dull red, as you know if you have seen it.

This matters, because with Kepler's equations we can determine exactly when historical eclipses occurred. Perhaps it will not surprise you to learn that only one Passover lunar eclipse was visible from Jerusalem while Pilate was in office. It occurred on April 3, 33 AD, the Day of the Cross.

That day followed a night of horrors predicted by the prophet Isaiah. In place of sleep for Jesus there were torch-lit hours of interrogation and mockery, spittle in the face and beatings, barbed lashes tearing flesh from his back and thorns pressed into his scalp. Isaiah wrote that the messiah would be beaten until "marred beyond human likeness". And so, Jesus was brutalized during multiple "trials" and retrials before priests Annas and Caiaphas, King Herod and Roman prefect Pontius Pilate. In the end, his fate was decided by a mob. He was marched to Golgotha, the "place of the skull," and crucified. He would die within six hours.

The gospels tell the chronology. Hammers thudded spikes through Jesus and into the cross at 9 AM. He was raised up. At noon and for three hours the sky was darkened. In the Temple at Jerusalem, only priests were permitted to enter the presence of God—a thick curtain excluded common men. During the crucifixion, this veil was torn apart, top to bottom, as a shattering earthquake split rocks and broke open tombs. In the darkness and tumult of these signs, even the Roman guards regretted their part in the killing. Jesus died at 3 PM. He was removed from the cross before nightfall to preserve the sanctity of the impending Passover. But the signs and wonders did not end. When the moon rose that evening, it was blood red. We can imagine the wonder of those who were present through all of this, and their increasing dread as the signs kept coming.

But there is more which they could not see. Kepler's equations indicate that the moon rose already in eclipse, already bloody, fulfilling Joel's vision. Necessarily, this means that the eclipse commenced before moonrise. With software we can look below the horizon and see Earth's shadow begin the eclipse. When we do, we find that at 3 PM, as Jesus was breathing his last on the cross, the moon was going to blood.

The sky at Christ's birth can be viewed as a kind of visual poetry, with the new moon symbolically "birthed" at the foot of Virgo, the virgin. To complete that celestial poem, on the night of Jesus' death the moon had returned to the foot of the virgin. But now it was a full moon. A life fully lived, blotted out in blood.

What does all that mean? Not 100% sure but I think I can pin-point the Tribulation to a certain time frame. I believe the world is about 6,000 years old and will be 7,000 after the millennium, a number of completeness. This is when the old world will be destroyed and a new heaven and earth will be created. It was approximately 2,000 from creation until the formation of the Jewish nation (Jacob). 2,000 more years until Christ and I believe 2,000 years after Christ will be the end.

We are told in Luke 21:25, "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars, and on the earth..." We have an asteroid called Apophis (which is named after an Ancient Egyptian mythological demon) due to pass very close to Earth on Friday the 13th, April 2029. This date is also GOOD FRIDAY!! The asteroid will pass within just 19,000 miles which is inside of our satellites. The rock has a 2.7% chance of hitting us. That doesn't sound like high odds but God can certainly nudge it before then. The rock is nearly 1,500 ft across or 5 football fields. Apophis to be assessed at level 4 on the Torino Scale[SUP][8][/SUP] and 1.10 on the Palermo Technical Impact Hazard Scale, scales scientists use to represent the danger of an asteroid hitting Earth. These are the highest values for which any object has been rated on either scale.

Oh and if the rock misses us but passes through a narrow corridor, it will return on Easter Sunday, April 13, 2036. Consider the 2nd trumpet of Rev 8:8, "And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood, and a third of the living creatures in the sea died..." or the Third trumpet where a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch. This could mean that we will be in the midst of the Tribulation possibly as early as 16 years from now. And No, there is No Pre-Tribulation Rapture but that is a subject for another day.

Widdekind · Jun 12, 2013

oops --

John 10 = "beyond the Jordan" = Matt 19 = Mark 10 = pre-3rd Passover

Widdekind said:

Bible Diagrams - Gospel of Mark Timeline

John 10 = Jesus, in Jerusalem @ 2nd Passover, declares Himself "Son of God", then flees "beyond the Jordan where John had been Baptizing"

"beyond the Jordan" = Decapolis = 10 cities = Mark 7 ~ Matt 15. (Note, Matthew skips over the visit to the Decapolis, after the healing of the daughter of the Phoenician woman, but before the feeding of the 5000; Matt simply states, that Jesus left Tyre / Sidon, and went around the Sea of Galilee; Mark adds the detail, of the specific stop in the Decapolis. But Matt is completely compatible, with Mark, the latter filling in extra details left out of the former.)

So,

John 10 = Mark 7 = Matt 15

between the 2nd - 3rd Passovers in Jesus' ministry, from 29-30 AD. For some reason, Mt/Mk/Lk omit many details, of the first two years of Jesus' ministry, perhaps because what Jesus taught had driven even many Jewish Disciples away (John 6). So, the Synoptic Gospels present a more basic & popular portrait, whereas John describes some of the harder teachings.

iamsoandso · Jun 12, 2013

iamsoandso said:

and see this is interesting,,,,,,,everyone is confused,,not about the year,,,,,,,but Christ age,,,,weve not advanced much since the early church fathers,if you will. they wrote about it also,,,,,,that is mankind believes he was in his 30's when he was crucified.,,,,,,so their stumped at the math.,,,,,,it don't work out.

irenaeus said the same thing is the matter he said the old said he died when you think,,,,,but he was born before you think,,,,he was almost 50 when he was crucified,,,,,,, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus How Old is Jesus According to Irenaeus? -- Apolonio's Catholic Apologetics, Philosophy, Spirituality

move his date of birth forward,,,,,,and look at it,,,,,,,,,,,,

kenisyes · Jun 12, 2013

Widdekind said:

If you could get me chapter and verse on Tertullian, I'd like to check it out. The hundred years make only a small difference. Roman churches were threatening people with excommunication in 170 for talking to Jews about the OT. Anything after that will suffer from the problem I mentioned.

The Gospels don't suggest anything until coordinated with the Roman calendar AND the Jewish calendar.

There is nothing arcane about modern computer modelling. I'm not using "astrology", but "astronomy" to get these numbers. These techniques were simply not available from 400 through 1980, and the only books we have that record the old dates were written by Roman (anti-Jewish) Christians, some of whom have been caught in other historical errors. AS I pointed out, there are other pagan books that contradict some of their dates in this regard.

kenisyes · Jun 12, 2013

Widdekind said:

The study is from 1984, long before computers could do what they can do today.

"Files to download" redirects and does not tell what file we need. Can you clarify what file to get?

kenisyes · Jun 12, 2013

Widdekind said:

I had the same objection when I first heard it. The Jews knew, but the Romans did not (this is part of the error) that the OT requires a second passover, a month later, for those who were ritually unclean at the first. This is also the "feast of the Jews" mentioned in between those two passovers. Since there is no second Tabernacles mentioned, this confirms the result of only 490 days.

Widdekind · Jun 12, 2013

kenisyes said:

you seem intent, on adapting Scripture, to speculative Astrology

the "star of Bethlehem" could have been a rogue comet; or could have been purely Visionary, Inspired into the magi by Holy Spirit

Widdekind · Jun 12, 2013

Aristobulus of Britannia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Paul wrote Romans circa 57 AD, (in part) to Aristobulus. Paul stayed in Rome circa 60-62 AD, before undertaking the 4MJ. Aristobulus became Bishop of Britain, and noted traveling companion of Paul, and may have visited northern Spain (Celtiberia). Plausibly, Paul visited Britain, and assigned Aristobulus as Bishop there, cp. assigning Titus to Crete. Legends tie Joseph of Arimathea to Glastonbury in Britain circa 63 AD, according to the A&E documentary Mysteries of the Bible - Lost Years of Jesus. Plausibly, Paul & Aristobulus travelled from Rome to Gaul; and either Aristobulus went on to Britain, or they both did, perhaps with Joseph of Arimathea, circa 63 AD.

kenisyes · Jun 12, 2013

Widdekind said:

Sorry, the star of Bethlehem is predicted by Balaam. We have a chapter of his books copied into the OT. He left behind 5 books of "prophecies" in the "East", and the kings were acting on those prophecies.
Astrology is not astronomy, and you are going to need to show me the flaws in the math, or prove it does match the Greek and Roman star records (which were paid for with tax money in those days) if you wish me to believe it is speculative. The mathematicians have been working on this for over 200 years, and when the computers came out, they say they have it right. I see no reason not to believe them.

kenisyes · Jun 12, 2013

Widdekind said:

These dates are from what source? Was it compared to the Roman records compiled after 200 AD to coordinate the dates?

Do you really believe that Joseph of Arimethea took the holy grail to Britain?

Widdekind · Jun 13, 2013

the Pentateuch of Balaam ??

4 BC => Herod began renovating the temple in 20/19 BC; +80 years = 61/62 AD
wasn't the temple of Jerusalem renovated for 80 years ?

1 BC => 64/65 AD

The documentary Mysteries of the Bible - Holy Child favors a prominent planetary conjunction, of the star Regulus with the planets Jupiter & Venus, in the summer of 2 BC, being the "Star of Bethlehem". Jewish Encyclopedia states:

Bishop James was martyred circa 62 AD, as Albinus was en-route, evidently perhaps a year before the temple was finally finished. Herod the Great's 18th regnal year = sept 20 BC - sept 19 BC, or +3 years later; late 17 BC + 80 years = late 64 AD, perhaps at the end of Albinus' term. But 17 BC + 46 years = 30 AD...

i suspect 4 BC is more accurate. Luke 2's reference to Jesus 12th year = 9 AD = German victory over Varus in Teutoberger Wald; i suspect Luke makes mention of Jesus' 12th year to hint, that Jesus would overcome Rome; 12 AD would have no such special significance. i suspect that Bishop James was martyred, almost at the time of the celebration for the temple's completion = 62 AD (which would imply that the renovations began in early 19 BC, perhaps at Passover ?

Justin Martyr says the wise-men came from Arabia, perhaps near to Mount Sinai (Gal 4), perhaps suggesting some-sort of pre-Muhammad Ishmaelite connection. Justin Martyr = early Church Father = authoritative; he was from Samaria in Israel. Perhaps there was a "Balaam Pentateuch" in Arabia, but an "Ishmael son of Abraham" connection seems more parsimonious to me.

Church of the Nativity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

kenisyes said:

[HR][/HR]
Three Pilgrimage Festivals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Herod began renovations, during one of the 3 Pilgrimage Festivals, when millions of Jews flocked to Jerusalem, so that his grand gesture would be maximally appreciated.

3PF = Passover + Pentecost + Tabernacles = Exodus + Torah @ Sinai + Wilderness wanderings

Herod would not have begun renovations, of the Temple, amidst memory of tents in the wilderness

Temple = Ark of Covenant = 10C's = Torah = Pentecoste

Herod began renovations in circa May/June 19 BC + 80 years = mid 62 BC

the martyrdom of James occurred almost exactly at the completion ceremony of the temple, early in the procuratorship of Albinus. Bishop James had his brains beaten out, about when the last temple stone was chiseled smooth, and set squarely in proper place. Then, Jesus ben Ananias began Prophesying Jerusalem's destruction, for 7 years, resembling the 2 witnesses x 3.5 years in Rev 11.

Widdekind · Jun 13, 2013

Joseph of Arimathea = "decurion" = mining official, not impossibly of tin = Cornwall
JA = great uncle of Jesus, took in Jesus after father Joseph d., in the boy's teens, = 10s AD

Hippolytus of Rome, disciple of Irenaeus, of Polycarp, of the Apostle John, circa 200 AD, wrote about "Aristobulus, the first Bishop of Britain", about when Tertullian acknowledge Christianity therein. He states nothing about JA. Parsimoniously, Paul picked up Aristobulus in Rome 60-62 AD; they both went to southern Gaul en-route to Spain; and perhaps one or both went also to Britain, circa 63 AD. Perhaps JA somehow played a part, perhaps his home in Cornwall was the site of the first Christian house-church.

Seventy disciples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

kenisyes said:

Widdekind · Jun 13, 2013

According to the documentary Mysteries of the Bible - Lost Years of Jesus, Jewish Messianic militants, in rebelling vs. Rome, created coins w/ a cup imprinted upon them, somehow symbolizing Messianic aspirations of liberation from (and domination over?) Rome.

so sayeth the internet, the cup = omer cup = Passover reference, to Exodus from "Egypt", surely symbolically seen as Rome. Parsimoniously, the "Holy cup" from the Last Supper = omer cup = same thing, Exodus from "Egypt" (albeit, to Christians, "Egypt" = Jerusalem = physical temple + priests = Rev 11).

omer cup - NumisWiki, The Collaborative Numismatics Project
Judaea - Ancient Greek Coins - WildWinds.com

kenisyes · Jun 13, 2013

the Pentateuch of Balaam ??

Five books of prophecies. They are witnessed to in Persian traditions. The people who studied the star mentioned them in their study.

4 BC => Herod began renovating the temple in 20/19 BC; +80 years = 61/62 AD
wasn't the temple of Jerusalem renovated for 80 years ?

If you could find a count matching the end of the renovations to how long before the temple was destroyed, that would give us a valid way to compute the date of Jesus' death, right? That may be a direction to go. I beleive this was considered and verified in the thread I worked on and quoted earleir.

The documentary Mysteries of the Bible - Holy Child favors a prominent planetary conjunction, of the star Regulus with the planets Jupiter & Venus, in the summer of 2 BC, being the "Star of Bethlehem". Jewish Encyclopedia states:

One of the reasons i care so much, is that I lived through much reserach on this issue in the 1960's-1990's of which this was one proposal, before the computer algorthim came of age.

Bishop James was martyred circa 62 AD, as Albinus was en-route, evidently perhaps a year before the temple was finally finished. Herod the Great's 18th regnal year = sept 20 BC - sept 19 BC, or +3 years later; late 17 BC + 80 years = late 64 AD, perhaps at the end of Albinus' term. But 17 BC + 46 years = 30 AD...

I hate it that everything is "circa." We are discussing a three year discrepancy.

i suspect 4 BC is more accurate.

The new omputer program verify this date for the star, the nature of the star being based on the prophecies of Balaam. It is the only sensible interpretation of the star I have ever heard. They even explain how it "came to rest". Which is why I accept this particular version.

Herod began renovations, during one of the 3 Pilgrimage Festivals, when millions of Jews flocked to Jerusalem, so that his grand gesture would be maximally appreciated.

Is there a reason you are disallowing Hannukah? It is a good time to start a new temple, as that is when the Maccabees did so. THat would make it January. Different Jewish year, so different count.

the martyrdom of James occurred almost exactly at the completion ceremony of the temple, early in the procuratorship of Albinus. Bishop James had his brains beaten out, about when the last temple stone was chiseled smooth, and set squarely in proper place. Then, Jesus ben Ananias began Prophesying Jerusalem's destruction, for 7 years, resembling the 2 witnesses x 3.5 years in Rev 11.

What of this is proven, and what is conclusion? Does your evidence relate JbenA to James, to the Temple, to Albinus, or just how. I'd love to get an exact chronology from this, but I suspect we cannot do so. We will still have a fudge factor of three years, because of the various ways of counting. It is the three years we must go after.

kenisyes · Jun 13, 2013

Widdekind said:

I have no problem with thinking Paul might have made it to England as you say. It is not proven by the evidence we have. The problem I have is that there are Episcopal legends resurrected by King James that are fantastic in this regard, and are most likely false. So I would like to check the source material before I accept it as fact. And I would prefer a year or two earlier.

kenisyes · Jun 13, 2013

Widdekind said:

It would be great if we could link a coin date to the temple, and then link the coin date to Jesus somehow. In the several I read, I don't see any way of doing that.

The omer cup is not passover. The omer cup is grain counted to mark the passing of 50 days from Passover to Pentecose. It has nothing to do with the Last Supper.

iamsoandso · Jun 13, 2013

this may or may not help,,,,it was something i found back when i was trying to research/study the dates of these writings(but rev. of john was the issue then),,,,but pauls books then come into play as to the dating of any of the books. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Detection_and_Overthrow_of_the_So-Called_Gnosis#Main_arguments this is from the text of irenaeus a.h. book 2 chapter 22,,,now from looking close at the wording of irenaeus he states the jews said "not yet 50",,,,but if he was not over 40 then they wouldnt have argued with him(christ)at all becouse he was still too young to teach. so 45-ish?,,,,,may explain the theory to 9bc???

also,,from the early church fathers,,, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Detection_and_Overthrow_of_the_So-Called_Gnosis#Main_arguments ,,,,,,,,these are sporadic writings from Ignatius,,,down at the bottom in his letter to his daughter(mary),,,he states his whereabouts(as to time),,,we can calculate his death by it. and also he writes two letters to "john the apostle",,,and two to mary(see text of letter's) but there is only one we have.

he states many things "important to dating" in these letters,,,,i.e. ,,,"i would go to Jerusalem"(so before July a.d.70),,,,,in another he states "peter was crucified,,,James and paul beheaded ect.),,so they were already dead at the time of his writing. now he wants to see "James the brother of jesus becouse he looked as if he were his twin",,,,so at the point of time he wrote this "james was living",,,,which James?,,,

now Ignatius died 108ad?,,2571 old dating????(correct my recollection,old memory),,,but in any event his letters to the churches and his sporadic letters that is,,,,if Jerusalem was by this time already "besieged",,,,why would he go there to visit Mary and john james ect.?????,,,so its at least before the moat was dug around Jerusalem.

now after that the Christians went north during the Jewish uprising,,,,,so if he(Ignatius) is stating mary,james,john ect. was still there and he(Ignatius) was thinking about going there,,,,,it was around ad67-ish,,,,before the Romans besieged the city.

ken,this is why i was looking at the wording of "stater coin" when we were discussing the copper scrolls,,,,"i was trying to afix a dating standard",,,,,,,were they Greek stater's? or were they the coins the jews minted and put into circulation in the revolt????hmmmm,,,unless we find them we may not know,if they are Jewish coins(copper scrolls),,then they also moved manuscripts to Qumran(just a theroy),,,,,

i will just sit and watch now,,,,my interest was to the book of Revelations,,,,ad96????why speak of a city laid in waist as if it were still standing???,,,,,,,,,

several times i notice ken say "the scriptures they were referring to",,,,and i always think "yes,preach on",,,,,,,,,,,but this is a very difficult thing to explain on the www. ,,,,,,,,,that is we see "rightly divide the word of truth,as written in the scripture of truth,,ect.ect.",,,,,,,,,,,,but,pretend in your mind,,you are alive in the year ad54,,,,"the dating of the new testament books",,,,

now bear in mind the first church was converted,,,before the book of Luke was written,,or revalations,,,or 2nd peter,,,or Galatians,,,,ect.,,,,so if someone believes Paul was referring to his own letters as he was preaching "they had not been written yet,or was in the process of being written",,,,,,,,,,,so peter,paul,james,,ect. were always refering to the "books",,,,that were already written when they were born,,,and the Gospels and the epistles they were writing were to explain to the many who will come to rightly divide the scripture preceding them.

although we are free from the law,,,,the scripture confesses the freedom from it,,and all then are bound to the freedom,,,,,,,but this should be another thread,,,,,but i see you saying it,,,and correctly,,,,but not here my friend in another thread,,,,,,

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