Paul's 4th Missionary Journey (to Spain)

[kenisyes]

he states the jews said "not yet 50",,,,but if he was not over 40 then they wouldnt have argued with him(christ)at all becouse he was still too young to teach. so 45-ish?,,,,,may explain the theory to 9bc???

"james was living",,,,which James?,,,

now after that the Christians went north during the Jewish uprising,,,,,so if he(Ignatius) is stating mary,james,john ect. was still there and he(Ignatius) was thinking about going there,,,,,it was around ad67-ish,,,,before the Romans besieged the city.

ken,this is why i was looking at the wording of "stater coin" when we were discussing the copper scrolls,,,,"i was trying to afix a dating standard"

but,pretend in your mind,,you are alive in the year ad54,,,,"the dating of the new testament books",,,,

now bear in mind the first church was converted,,,before the book of Luke was written,,or revalations,,,or 2nd peter,,,or Galatians,,,,ect.,,,,so if someone believes Paul was referring to his own letters as he was preaching "they had not been written yet,or was in the process of being written",,,,,,,,,,,so peter,paul,james,,ect. were always refering to the "books",,,,that were already written when they were born,,,and the Gospels and the epistles they were writing were to explain to the many who will come to rightly divide the scripture preceding them.

It's great to have something detailed to respond to. I miss you from the threads.

In Luke it says Jesus was "as if" 30, the word implying He was ahead of His time. Could Iranaeus not be referring to Jesus' maturity "as it 40"? There is still the issue of the Christmas Star in 4BC.

I learned there was a James who lived to be well over 100, and was bishop in Jerusalem. In fact, I think it was you who found the reference. After the Romans destroyed the temple, Jerusalem was polictically kind of like it was 100 years ago. Many communities lived there.

Coins are such a difficult thing. They date an epoch, but are so hard to pin down to a precise date. Just read the dates on what you have in your pocket. All they will prove is that it is somewhere between 2012 and 2016, and we know our calendar.

I agree, Paul was referring to the OT. The first notion of Christian equivalent comes from Marcion in about 150, suggesting Luke-Acts as the appropriate choice. Even though Peter refers to the writings of Paul as scriptures, there was no collection until later.

 

[Widdekind]

The omer cup is not passover.

huh ? According to the sources i cited:

The cup itself is the golden vessel that contained the Omer and was used on the second day of Passover when a measure of barley, a tenth of an epah, equal to one and a half pints of fine flour, was offered to the Temple as the fresh fruits of the field.

 

[kenisyes]

The passover cup is used on the first day of passover, and holds the wine for the four cups. This is the cup associated with the Eucharist by Christians.

The omer cup is used on the second day of passover because that is when the count to Pentecost begins. The omer cup is associated with Pentecost.

 

[Widdekind]

Herod began renovations, during one of the 3 Pilgrimage Festivals, when millions of Jews flocked to Jerusalem, so that his grand gesture would be maximally appreciated.

Is there a reason you are disallowing Hannukah? It is a good time to start a new temple, as that is when the Maccabees did so.

Hannukah or Pentecoste seem the most plausible options, then

either way, renovations began in early 19 BC, in the middle of Herod's 18th year

could Herod have made such a blatant Maccabean self-reference ? Wouldn't Augustus have been offended ?

the martyrdom of James occurred almost exactly at the completion ceremony of the temple, early in the procuratorship of Albinus. Bishop James had his brains beaten out, about when the last temple stone was chiseled smooth, and set squarely in proper place. Then, Jesus ben Ananias began Prophesying Jerusalem's destruction, for 7 years, resembling the 2 witnesses x 3.5 years in Rev 11.

What of this is proven, and what is conclusion? Does your evidence relate JbenA to James, to the Temple, to Albinus, or just how. I'd love to get an exact chronology from this, but I suspect we cannot do so. We will still have a fudge factor of three years, because of the various ways of counting. It is the three years we must go after.

the Jews were, apparently, angry at Ananias the High Priest, who had martyred James, in early 62 AD, as Albinus was en-route. Elsewhere, Josephus states that Jesus ben Ananias began Prophesying seven and a half years before being killed, in the Roman siege of Jerusalem, in mid 70 AD. So, in late 62 AD, after the High Priest Ananias had been deposed, Jesus began Prophesying "woe, woe to Jerusalem". Somehow, Jesus the Prophet seemingly reflected some Jewish sentiment, against Jerusalem, and the temple priesthood, in the wake of James' martyrdom.

 

[Widdekind]

either way, the "cup" on the coins, of the Zealots, in Jerusalem, was an "Exodus [from oppression]" symbol, as was the "Holy grail" of the Last Supper

The passover cup is used on the first day of passover, and holds the wine for the four cups. This is the cup associated with the Eucharist by Christians.

The omer cup is used on the second day of passover because that is when the count to Pentecost begins. The omer cup is associated with Pentecost.

 

[kenisyes]

either way, the "cup" on the coins, of the Zealots, in Jerusalem, was an "Exodus [from oppression]" symbol, as was the "Holy grail" of the Last Supper

I agree completely. Does it help us pin down our date?

 

[Widdekind]

I agree completely. Does it help us pin down our date?

the Apostle Mark, and also Josephus, fled from Rome in 65 AD, during Nero's persecution => most probable date for martyrdoms of Peter & Paul

subtracting 35+1 years, per Hippolytus, => 29 AD

Tertullian says AUC 783 = 30 AD; others said 18/19th year of Tiberias, 3-4 years after Luke says John began baptizing in the 15th year of Tiberias => 26/27 AD

So, John began baptizing in response to Pilate's installation as procurator; indeed, Josephus describes Pilate as particularly tyrannical, especially under Sejanus (deposed 31 AD)

So, all of the dates shot-gun-scatter-shot around 29/30 AD, for the Crucifixion. i would view fancy computer-based claims as secondary, in authority, "no matter what the bells & whistles say, Scripture & Church fathers have greater authority", no computer can become the de facto "god", of Christians, or else some Cray supercomputer ought to be elected Pope

 

[kenisyes]

I think we have gotten as close as we are going to get. I have nothing further I can add. We have listed pretty much all the pros and cons that current knowledge will let us. We still disagree on whether the computer or church fathers should have greater authority, but we have outlined the reasons, so each can reach his own conclusion.