Philosophical discussion on Christianity

[4enlightment]

Thank you for your in depth reply.

I too find there is order & interdependence in reality, thought I am not sure how you have jumped to a creator which would require independent evidence that it is the cause of this order.

"I would find it unjust and discouraging if there were no accountability and no justice in the end."
Is what you hope for and what is true the same?

Someone has to teach us what is good and what comes from it. In our past history, there were dark periods and after each period, something away pulled us from it. As we go through these periods, we learn from it as if some being is trying to educate us all about what is good and not so good. Most of us like the dark ages, but a few of us love the brighter things of life. How come we can't kill for pleasure or enslave someone like how the people in the past had done and some of us are still doing? Why is this good force is spreading all throughout the world, and how come some of us desire to go in that direction rather than the other? Why can't good people just get along with the wicked and let them do what pleases them? There is a Good Force that is in control of all things, to make sure that it is not cast away.

 

[Atwood]

The intricacies of the eyeball alone and how it focuses,transfers and translates light is mind boggling in and of itself.

All of creation is mind-boggling, as it stretches in incredible complexity and order from the quark (& who knows what next may be even smaller) to the universe in its totality, requiring vast intelligence and power.

God expects the person who contemplates creation to be convicted of His existence.

Rom 1

For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.


Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.


And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful: who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.


Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things.

 

[Atwood]

Sorry to keep you waiting for a response, 1daniel.

I look at the flowers, trees, plants, with their great variety and complexity, at the effect of the moon upon the tides, the balance of natural things, the working of the human body: the channels within the nose which warm the incoming air before it reaches the lungs, finger prints (not one the same), snow flake structures (each one unique), new birth etc., and I know that it is the work of a superintending power.

When I had a watch with moving parts, and took the back off it, it was found to be a masterpiece of wheels and parts, perfectly balanced to tell the time of day, I did not doubt that it had a maker, and gave him the glory due. Why should I do any less for the maker if heaven and earth and everthing therein?

I give glory where it is due.

I hope that helps.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Tell me this Chris,
If you had an indestructible bag and had all the parts of the watch loose in the bag, and a shaking machine attached, how long would it take for a watch to emerge in the bag? Or would the parts disintegrate from the bumping long before serious assembly took place?

 

[JesusLives]

I don't believe the positive claim that 'God(s) exist' because, in my opinion, there is not enough evidence to support that claim. In the same way, I don't believe the also positive claim that 'God(s) do not exist' because there is not enough evidence to support the claim. Both claims have the burden of proof because they are each making a positive claim.

Yes is it reasonable because I am using reason to come to it (explained above) and in reason the default position is dis-believe of both claims until they meet their burden. My standard of evidence is reasonable because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Can a finite mind can define and pass judgment on an infinite mind? You would need to demonstrate this infinite mind is at least possible before we can drew conclusions from it.

What is your standard by which you judge things to be true or false? Through evidence, and by making and testing predictions. As mentioned above, my standard of evidence would be very high for a supernatural claim, and of course causation is very hard to prove.

Might I make a suggestion since you put yourself in an unsure status of Christian. Take some time to get to know God in that you read the Bible and I would start with the book of John. As you read the book pray and ask for understanding that you are searching to know and learn about God. God wants to develop a relationship with each one of us and like dating you have to spend time with the other person to get to know about them.

Many times in my walk and learning I told God I did not want to go to heaven because I was afraid to go to hell. I do not believe that my creator God is a vindictive God waiting for me to mess up so He can do away with me otherwise why would He send His Son to die for me if He did not love me and want to be reconciled. If destruction was His plan He would have already zapped evil and sin out of existence. So that leads me to believe that God loves me and wants to build that relationship and again in order for that to happen I have to spend time with Him. John 3: 16 and 17 tells me God loves the whole world and those in it and does not want to condemn us. I pray that you too will come to know that our God is a loving Father wanting and waiting for us to come home and be with Him. I pray you will give your heart to Him today.

 

[Elin]

I have some questions about God and why people believe, as follows:

What is the main reason you believe?

The powerful witness of the Holy Spirit to my spirit giving me absolute certainty of the truth of Scripture (the Bible).

The feltness of God always with me,
the comfort of him always with me,
the trust which comes from him always with me,
the evidences of his provision for me,
the majesty, purity and sublimity of his truth,
the power of his truth on my mind,
the effectualness of his truth on my disposition (heart),
his love shed abroad in my heart,
the experience of him working all things, pleasing or painful, for my good.

Would you say your beliefs are reasonable, i.e. your faith is grounded in reason and you have good reason to believe?

My faith is grounded in the absolute certainty given me.

Absolute certainty is a good reason to believe.

What is your standard by which you judge things to be true or false?

The Scriptures (the Bible).

WHY DO YOU ASK?

 

[Elin]

What's wrong with being unsure? I'm not trying to hind that I am open to different faiths. I'm here because I enjoy philosophical discussion and it great way to work out what you think about something.

Also the phrase Atheist to a lot of Christians mean 'a belief that God(s) do not exist' which is not the position I hold.

Are you agnostic?

 

[posthuman]

What is the main reason you believe?

because God is real, and He is the Truth, and the Truth is my salvation,
and if i do not believe i deny the truth; if i close my eyes He can still see me.
so i must believe, or when the Truth is revealed, i will also know, and be ashamed.

Would you say your beliefs are reasonable, i.e. your faith is grounded in reason and you have good reason to believe?

i would say human reasoning is irrelevant.
and i would say that my beliefs can be understood with reason, and reason can be built on them,
but they also defy reason, and confound it.

What is your standard by which you judge things to be true or false?

by the sound of His voice.

Thanks in advance for any responses.

thank God, not me - if He had not made all these people, and didn't both give them life and sustain them, you wouldn't have any responses.

i might add that i know you're welcome

 

[RedTent]

However, what about a scientific result that showed prayer had no influence on the external world; there is a reason science doesn't rely on individual testimony, because it is often mislead.

There are other results of prayer showing external world result. There is a book about a prayer experiment called 'Prayer can Change Your Life" by Parker that is about a scientific prayer experiment giving the results of the experiment.

I don't know if you are into science enough to study the different dimensions of our world, but scientifically, they are not recognizing the spiritual dimension and it is a true dimension. Science recognized 10, those who recognize the spiritual recognize 11. I have reached into the spiritual dimension twice in my life, I can testify it is real. If you analyze birth and death, you would have to also agree it is real, unless everything people have said about it is a lie.

A study of the work done by exorcists and reports of that work also attests to the reality of different dimensions. I realize it is difficult to find true scientists in this study and not sensationalist seekers, but they are there.

God told us in the Old Testament that there were people so caught up in the fleshly part of this world that they were too dead to ever, for any reason, accept the truth of God, and the spiritual world. You will have to come to grips with the possibility that it describes you, but it is your choice. If you seek the spiritual sincerely, you could find it.

 

[Spokenpassage]

How do you know that
1) The expression "God doesn't exist" is rightly modified by "technically speaking"?
2) God doesn't exist?

God was not created, it's in the scriptures.

You can check out #64 for more info...

 

[CWJ]

What blessed responses! - Thank you all.

Thank you 1daniel for making them possible.

 

[2Thewaters]

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy
and vain deceit,
after the tradition of men,
after the rudiments of the world,
and not after Christ.

 

[2Thewaters]

Paul gave up pholosopy, Philosophy is silly science,

It had been Paul's custom to adopt an oratorical style in his preaching. He was a man fitted to speak before kings, before the great and learned men of Athens, and his intellectual acquirements were often of value to him in preparing the way for the gospel. He tried to do this in Athens, meeting eloquence with eloquence, philosophy with philosophy, and logic with logic; but he failed to meet with the success he had hoped for. His aftersight led him to understand that there was something needed above human wisdom. . . . He must receive his power from a higher source. In order to convict and convert sinners, the Spirit of God must come into his work and sanctify every spiritual development

 

[2Thewaters]

I said: Why do you not grasp the promises? Seek first to know God. Search the Scriptures. Feed on the words of Christ, which are spirit and life. Then your knowledge will grow. Study your Bibles. Study not the philosophy contained in many books, but study the philosophy of the word of the living God. Compared with this, other literature is of little consequence. Do not fill your minds with so many things that are cheap and unsatisfying. In the word of God is spread before you the richest banquet. This is the Lord's table, abundantly provided, whereof you may eat and be satisfied.

 

[nl]

This is simply begging the question, because we are discussing if it is indeed obvious & self-evident

Here is an often-repeated, fallacial conclusion which begs the question of God's existence: The universe is all that is, all that ever was and all that ever will be.

This is a conclusion without premises to support it.

Assuming the universe is all that there is begs the question in favor of atheism.

A fish might assume that its watery environment (ocean, lake, pond or fish bowl) is all there is because that's what it knows. But, there's more. Humanity knows what its five senses can detect and and can give a nod to reason but realities can exist beyond natural perception and human reasoning may not arrive at all valid conclusions from known premises.

Rejecting the cosmological argument is also unreasonable. Every thing that exists has a cause. Books have authors. Bridges have builders. Arguing that the universe is the exception and has no cause begs the question and reaches a conclusion of atheism without foundation. Ultimately, there must be an uncaused Cause and an unmoved Mover who initiates. The uncaused Cause is God and not impersonal matter and energy. Matter and energy require a cause for their existence.

 

[nl]

Would you say your beliefs are reasonable, i.e. your faith is grounded in reason and you have good reason to believe?

Come on guys, please decide whether you are using reason in this forum or arguing from personal revelation.

Interdependence within the ecology of the earth is evidence for the Creator and Designer and Sustainer.

Ecology demonstrates the wisdom of the Creator. Asserting the wisdom of randomness, natural selection and random mutations is non-rational because these are mindless, impersonal forces.

Life on earth depends upon air, water, sun and rock.

Rock is the foundation for soil. Weather and organisms reduce rock to soil. Soil supports plants. Plants provide oxygen in the air and food.

Water cycles through soil and rivers to the oceans from which it evaporates and returns to land as rain and snow. Earth has many cycles and systems that show coordination and design even in the inorganic realm.

Consider insects. Insect populations are kept under control by predators such as other insects, small mammals and birds. Without these predators, insects would overwhelm the environment.

Small mammals like mice and rabbits are kept under control by hawks, owls, snakes, coyotes and foxes.

Ecological interdependence is a vast subject and shows greater order and design. This is design and not an accident. Designs have Designers.

 

[Woodartdon]

My testimony has been published at "donmasterson.weebly.com" and here, but in brief: I started out a child with an I.Q. of 72 (2 point above retarded) with parents that never gave up their denial as to the shortcomings of one of their 8 children. After being horrified by the US Marine Corp. I re-entered the world with no desire for life or the people of this world, they just all seemed so bad. I turned then to the lowest lifestyle that one could live in this world, thinking it would end one day soon. I wound up in a situation where The law wanted to put me in prison and the underworld thought I knew to much to run loose. I was preparing to start murdering for money when I said out loud: I don't know if you are real or not but this world of your's is messed up and even if your real, I don't think I like you. But if you are real you had better speak now because tomorrow it wouldn't matter. That is the first time I heard the voice of God as it was clear. That was 1980 and the change of heart was hidden in a long line of lessons, but now I serve His calling.

I have some questions about God and why people believe, as follows:

What is the main reason you believe?
Would you say your beliefs are reasonable, i.e. your faith is grounded in reason and you have good reason to believe?
What is your standard by which you judge things to be true or false?

Thanks in advance for any responses.

Note to mods: wasn't sure where the best place to post this was, so I chose the closes topic I could find.

 

[nl]

If God did not exist, then the existence of universe would have no explanation. God does exist. The universe does exist. There is no known, rational explanation for the existence of the universe other than the existence of God.

Speculation <> explanation.

 

[Elin]

Simply, what are you reasons that make your belief reasonable?

Your premise is based on unproven assumption--that reason is the highest standard/judge of all truth.

It may be for you, and that is your privilege,
but it is not for me, and that is also my privilege.

My highest standard/judge of all truth is revelation, given in the Judeo/Christian writings.

Since reason is not my standard/judge of all truth,
reason has no authority with me to judge the truth of what I believe.

However, reason is most useful in systemically understanding what I believe.
But it is always subject to the authority of the revelation which I believe,
which revelation always trumps reason.

Why have I chosen revelation over reason as my standard/judge/authority regarding all truth?

For the same reason you have chosen "reason" as yours, my disposition.

I have been made certain in my disposition of the truth in the revelation which I believe.
This certainty was not my own, it was given to, worked in, me, contrary to all expectations.

Nevertheless, to believe what is certain to me is eminently reasonable.
And not to believe what is certain to me is eminently unreasonable.

So my belief is both reasonable, as well as not based on reason.

 

[CWJ]

Tell me this Chris,
If you had an indestructible bag and had all the parts of the watch loose in the bag, and a shaking machine attached, how long would it take for a watch to emerge in the bag? Or would the parts disintegrate from the bumping long before serious assembly took place?

Hi Atwood,

As my Father used to say, 'There must be a moral in there somewhere?!'

I shall have to pass on this one, I'm afraid.

 

[Elin]

Hi Atwood,

As my Father used to say, 'There must be a moral in there somewhere?!'

I shall have to pass on this one, I'm afraid.

Not that I am in a position to improve on anything Atwood presents.

But the moral is: order and design do not emerge out of disorder and randomness.
Quite the contrary. Order moves to disorder, not the other way around.
Thermodynamics 'n all. . .

Where we find design, we know there was a designer.
Where we find a watch, we know there was a watchmaker,
that it did not assemble itself randomly.