Prayer language vs prophecy

[RickyZ]

context to your post is

paul is not converted to acts 9,

a gentile cornelious acts 10.

and permission to speak to a gentile acts 10.

28 And he said to them, " .28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.acts 10.

there are no gentiles at penticoste, .

Acts 2: 1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[SUP]a[/SUP] as the Spirit enabled them.
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[SUP]b[/SUP] 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

Sounds like a mixed crowd to me.

And I'm not quite seeing how it relates to discerning prophecy from prayer language..?

 

[notuptome]

Basis for all 'prophesy'? If you are going to use a verb as a noun, you should use a gerund. 'basis for all prophesying'.

The last syllable of 'prophesy' has a long I sound, pronounced like the word 'I' . 'Prophecy' is a noun and the last syllable there is pronounced like the word 'sea'.

I've checked Oxford and Webster's and both back this up.

As for the content of what you said, Paul wrote at the beginning of I Corinthians according to the KJV, 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' Peter wrote about prophesying in the last days. And of course dispensationalists are still expecting the two witnesses who will prophesy and do miracles. It 'aint over yet.

Ireneaus, a missionary church planter who lived in the late 100's and early 200's, and who knew Polycarp who knew the apostle John, wrote of the spiritual gifts in his day which included prophecy and foreknowledge, along with tongues, casting out demons, and raising the dead. He is known for his book 'Against Heresies' and in one of his other works, he wrote that rejecting prophecy was characteristic of the heresies.

Last time, you were arguing for this idea of prophesying being complete out of I Corinthians 13, even though it doesn't fit with what Paul wrote in chapter 1, and even though the interpretation would lead to the obviously false conclusion that you are like an adult in your understanding while Paul, when he wrote I Corinthians 13, was like a child in his. I see that it is obvious that he understood these truths that he wrote of then better than you do know. Otherwise, you would not misinterpret his epistle.



If you believe this, you shoould believe what the Son has to say. Jesus said, "Behold, I send unto you prophets, wise men, and scribes...." He also said '...and the scripture cannot be broken..." while laying out an argument once. The Psalms tell of how he ascended and gave gifts to men. Ephesians 4 clarifies that among these gifts were prophets. It is clear that there were prophets in the church after Jesus asended. We see this in Acts and in I Corinthians. Peter, quoting Joel, speaking after Jesus' ascension, told of the prophesying that would occur in the last days.

Prophecy is complete. The word of God is complete. That is the noun prophecy. Now when you use the verb prophesy you prophesy from the bible which is prophecy. To prophesy is to speak forth the word of God.

You are forced to remain confused and disillusioned over three gifts that scripture has prophesied would end.

You are no miracle worker. You cannot force God to act outside of His word which is that prophecy once and for all delivered to the saints.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Maybe you should reword that. Are you disagreeing with Jesus. Jesus never said, "There are no sign gifts". 'Sign gifts' doesn't show up in the Bible. It seems to be used most by cessationists that want to get rid of certain gifts in this day and age, so they categorize them all as 'sign gifts', try to argue that two or three of them are no more. And since they put the other gifts they don't want to occur these days in that basket, they can throw them out, too... in their belief system.

Not quite true but you have no problem with half truth.

Jesus did say that an evil and adulterous generation sought a sign and none would be given them except the sign of Jonah. Scripture further states that signs are for the Jews but wisdom is for the Gentiles. I guess not all Gentiles see after wisdom.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[royalscot]

Acts 2: 1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[SUP]a[/SUP] as the Spirit enabled them.
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[SUP]b[/SUP] 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

Sounds like a mixed crowd to me.

And I'm not quite seeing how it relates to discerning prophecy from prayer language..?

8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles)Galatians 2

that the point ,you mixed scripture .

all jewish at penticoste, converting to christian. paul ministry never started till acts 9. acts 10 and 15 are 10-18 years ,apart to acts 2. (32 ad). etc

 

[RickyZ]

Still not following. The Arabs, Mesopotamians, the Egyptians, the Cretans, et al who were hearers of Acts 2 were all Jews?

And the op was one cohesive piece of scripture.... Not sure how you mix up one passage of scripture.

10 to 18 years apart you say. God says He's the same yesterday today and tomorrow. Not sure what difference 10 to 18 years makes with that. Would the tongues and prophecy Paul spoke of that much later be that different from Acts 2? No Acts 2 fits precisely in with 1 Cor 14.

Many people think that if there were, to pull a number out of the air, 20 men hearing God's word in their own language, they assume that means there were 20 others speaking those 20 different languages. No, those who received the Holy Spirit were speaking in a single Spiritual language, which The Spirit then interpreted to the 20 listeners as their own languages.

 

[royalscot]

we are not asking what you think, we are asking, what you can prove from scripture. and if it has no context to scripture.

so all you have is what you posted and who sent the airmen to war. you ignore history if you want.

 

[royalscot]

Still not following. The Arabs, Mesopotamians, the Egyptians, the Cretans, et al who were hearers of Acts 2 were all Jews?

And the op was one cohesive piece of scripture.... Not sure how you mix up one passage of scripture.

10 to 18 years apart you say. God says He's the same yesterday today and tomorrow. Not sure what difference 10 to 18 years makes with that. Would the tongues and prophecy Paul spoke of that much later be that different from Acts 2? No Acts 2 fits precisely in with 1 Cor 14.

Many people think that if there were, to pull a number out of the air, 20 men hearing God's word in their own language, they assume that means there were 20 others speaking those 20 different languages. No, those who received the Holy Spirit were speaking in a single Spiritual language, which The Spirit then interpreted to the 20 listeners as their own languages.

28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.Acts 10

if there was a gentile at acts 2, peter, would not be making this statement in acts 10. now would he. etc

 

[presidente]

Not quite true but you have no problem with half truth.

Jesus did say that an evil and adulterous generation sought a sign and none would be given them except the sign of Jonah. Scripture further states that signs are for the Jews but wisdom is for the Gentiles. I guess not all Gentiles see after wisdom.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You're a Gentile, aren't you? We have this conversation over and over again. I have shown you on more than one occasion that Paul and Barnabas did signs/miracles among the Gentiles. We can read this in Acts 15, and some specific signs that Paul performed are mentioned in Acts. Yet, you persist in taking a verse about what Jews WANTED and confusing that with how the Lord operates. In Acts, the Lord had apostles doing signs before the Gentiles, with a positive effect.

As for the Jews demanding the sign, there is a specific passage in the Old Testament about how a prophet who predicts something that does not come to pass was not to be listened to. Christ had already did miracles and continued to do them after he said this about the sign. The sign Jesus gave, the sign of the prophet Jonah, as a prediction that would be fulfilled. In this case, it was his resurrection. He also gave the sign of his resurrection in John 2 as a sign of His authority to clean out the temple.

Of course, this is not really on point with my comment about certain cessationists putting gifts that don't fit with their quasi-enlightenment, quasi-modernistic, in some cases quasi-deist world-view into one basket, calling the 'basket' sign gifts, and trying to get rid of all those gifts for this day and age. That way, they can misapply a passage about tongues, prophecy, and knowledge and argue that gifts of miracles, healing, and words of knowledge have passed away. They create a basket without scriptural justification, throw stuff into the basket, argue that two or three items have ceased, and try to throw the whole basket away.

 

[presidente]

notuptome,

Could you find me one example of someone who believed in your interpretation of 'that which is perfect' before the 18th century? Can you find one native Greek speaker from the early church?

 

[RickyZ]

we are not asking what you think, we are asking, what you can prove from scripture. and if it has no context to scripture.

so all you have is what you posted and who sent the airmen to war. you ignore history if you want.

Hokay, I think that's enough from the fringes. Wow.

 

[garee]

Maybe you should reword that. Are you disagreeing with Jesus. Jesus never said, "There are no sign gifts". 'Sign gifts' doesn't show up in the Bible.

Sign curses as warnings yes, sign gifts by what we perform ,no such thing

Jesus says it a wicked generation (natural man) that seeks after signs. This is other than the sign of Jonas, the sign of Christ, coming in the flesh .He came.

There is no sign gift that comes after something we could do in our flesh to show we have the Spirit of Christ in us

It seems to be used most by cessationists that want to get rid of certain gifts in this day and age, so they categorize them all as 'sign gifts', try to argue that two or three of them are no more. And since they put the other gifts they don't want to occur these days in that basket, they can throw them out, too... in their belief system.

Cessationists....I have not been called that what ever it is? God's will still exists as the same spirit of faith according as it written.

I would suggest how we have a living supernatural hope in "hearing God "and not the teaching of men. All new prophecy has ceased .Why you look for more than He has revealed puzzles me?

It would seem you could be walking after the flesh making the experiences one has performed as a sign they have the holy Spirit .There are no signs gift. The Gift is a new spirit with a new desire coming d from a new heart to do the will of God .
It is not visible to the human eye as if we could know Christ after the rudiments of this world

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.



2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

 

[RickyZ]

Romans says to walk after the Spirit. Corinthians says to eagerly desire the Spiritual gifts. Seems to me if you deny the Spiritual gifts it is YOU who are walking according to the flesh and not the Spirit.

 

[notuptome]

You're a Gentile, aren't you? We have this conversation over and over again. I have shown you on more than one occasion that Paul and Barnabas did signs/miracles among the Gentiles. We can read this in Acts 15, and some specific signs that Paul performed are mentioned in Acts. Yet, you persist in taking a verse about what Jews WANTED and confusing that with how the Lord operates. In Acts, the Lord had apostles doing signs before the Gentiles, with a positive effect.

As for the Jews demanding the sign, there is a specific passage in the Old Testament about how a prophet who predicts something that does not come to pass was not to be listened to. Christ had already did miracles and continued to do them after he said this about the sign. The sign Jesus gave, the sign of the prophet Jonah, as a prediction that would be fulfilled. In this case, it was his resurrection. He also gave the sign of his resurrection in John 2 as a sign of His authority to clean out the temple.

Of course, this is not really on point with my comment about certain cessationists putting gifts that don't fit with their quasi-enlightenment, quasi-modernistic, in some cases quasi-deist world-view into one basket, calling the 'basket' sign gifts, and trying to get rid of all those gifts for this day and age. That way, they can misapply a passage about tongues, prophecy, and knowledge and argue that gifts of miracles, healing, and words of knowledge have passed away. They create a basket without scriptural justification, throw stuff into the basket, argue that two or three items have ceased, and try to throw the whole basket away.

I have no misconceptions about you and the plain evidence that you care very little for what the scripture teaches on this subject.

Paul and Barnabas in Acts clearly evidences that the tongues seen were as a witness to the Jews sent from Jerusalem to keep tabs on the disciples. You have no recording of what was said when the tongues were spoken. Other than Acts 2 we have no recorded words that were spoken in tongues.

Not a single soul in the NT ever prayed in tongues. Not a single record of angels speaking in angelic tongues.

Apostasy is after the crowds and the money they bring to the enterprise.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

Had to peek at that last entry Roger. Thanks for yet another gem to add to the list of your outright contempt for scripture:

1 Cor 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

Originally Posted by notuptome :
Not a single soul in the NT ever prayed in tongues
Roger

But don't think that means you've been taken off ignore.

 

[notuptome]

Had to peek at that last entry Roger. Thanks for yet another gem to add to the list of your outright contempt for scripture:

1 Cor 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

Originally Posted by notuptome :
Not a single soul in the NT ever prayed in tongues
Roger

But don't think that means you've been taken off ignore.

Speaking and praying are not the same thing. Especially with the context impressed upon it by those who claim to exercise prayer tongues.

Tongues are languages not ecstatic utterances that mimic babbling which is how the pagans prayed.

Ignoring me is of no consequence but ignoring God is a different matter. Just saying.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[royalscot]

Hokay, I think that's enough from the fringes. Wow.

i asked for proof to your post. i gave you proof to your interpretation of scripture. here s more proof.

Romans 8
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.


27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

if there is no context,

Galatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace Galatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free



how can he intercedes for you, if your in want to a new covenant. or turned your back on it. etc


3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith---Galatians 3

or in other words your relying on a leader or paster to blow you up each sunday or service ie going to church. etc.

blow you up means the spiritual glow and peace you get when in church, etc

 

[presidente]

Sign curses as warnings yes, sign gifts by what we perform ,no such thing

Jesus says it a wicked generation (natural man) that seeks after signs.

I wonder if you are committing the logical error of affirming the consequent here. A classic example of that is saying, "If someone commits suicide, he is dead. George is dead. Therefore he must have committed suicide." But George died of a fever.


Jesus said a wicked and adulterous generation seeks a sign. He did not say that all who seek a sign are wicked and adulterous. Jesus' own disciples asked him what the sign of His coming and of the end of the age would be. Jesus did not rebuke them for being evil or adulterous and tell them He would only give them the sign of the prophet Jonah. Rather, He gave them signs. Jesus said to them in the book of John, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you". So we should not consider the apostles to be evil or adulterous for seeking a sign.


As a matter of logic, if a wicked and adulterous seek a sign, that doesn't mean all who seek a sign are wicked and adulterous. The wicked and adulterous use the toilet, too. If you use the toilet, does that make you wicked or adulterous?

There is no sign gift that comes after something we could do in our flesh to show we have the Spirit of Christ in us

This makes me wonder if you know what 'sign gift' means. I also wonder if you just threw in a few wrong words accidentally and didn't say that sentence the way you intended.


The apostles were believers in Jesus and had their sins forgiven, but they still did miracles. Stephen and Philip were Christians and did miracles. The Corinthians had been forgiven and accepted by Christ, and Paul wrote that some members of the body had the gift of the working of miracles.


Who is arguing that the purpose of signs is to 'show we have the Spirit in Christ in us'. If one can argue that is a side-effect or even a purpose of miracles in some cases, it certainly isn't the Biblical emphasis. I don't see anyone arguing for that idea. You seem to be beating up a straw man.

Cessationists....I have not been called that what ever it is?

People who think these gifts ceased.

I would suggest how we have a living supernatural hope in "hearing God "and not the teaching of men. All new prophecy has ceased .Why you look for more than He has revealed puzzles me?

I choose to believe the Bible rather than your proclamations.

It would seem you could be walking after the flesh making the experiences one has performed as a sign they have the holy Spirit .

Do you know what 'walking after the flesh' means? You shouldn't judge my salvation or the way I live my life because I don't care your confusion on this issue.


Again 'a sign they have the holy Spirit'-- I consider that a straw man argument.

There are no signs gift. The Gift is a new spirit with a new desire coming d from a new heart to do the will of God .
It is not visible to the human eye as if we could know Christ after the rudiments of this world

You are just making up your own interpretations of the Bible, interpretations that contradict the rest of the Bible. There is the gift of the Spirit, and there also gifts of the Spirit. There are many gifts of the Spirit. I Corinthians speak of 'manifestation of the Spirit'. Yes, we can actually 'see' and hear some manifestations of the Spirit, and witness evidence of their operation. They are manifestations here in this realm.


Jesus did actual miracles, healing blind people's eyes, for example, something physical that could be witnessed. This does not mean he was 'after the rudiments of this world.' When Paul performed a miracle of a lame man, there was evidence right there. When Paul ministered to Publius father and the diarrhea stopped, there was evidence. Before he had diarrhea, and afterward he didn't. That doesn't mean Paul was walking after the 'rudiments of this world'.


Even more 'mundane' gifts like teaching and administration have real literal physical effects that we can see and witness.


You are just making up your own ways of using terminology like 'sign gifts' (not a category I particularly care for the way cessationists use it) and 'rudiments of this world'. You just made up what you think these mean. You are misinterpreting theological terms and the Bible.

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

Paul walked by faith and not might sight and spoke in tongues and healed people.


If there are aspects of your belief system contradict the Bible, you need to scrap those aspects of your belief system, and not just stick to your guns.

 

[presidente]

Jesus did say that an evil and adulterous generation sought a sign and none would be given them except the sign of Jonah.

Jesus said 'an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign', but He did not say that all who sought signs were evil and adulterous. The disciples asked Jesus for the sign of His coming and of the ends of the age. Jesus told his disciples they were clean through the word. He did not say they were evil or adulterous when they asked him for a sign.

Scripture further states that signs are for the Jews but wisdom is for the Gentiles.

How many times will you repeat this error and be corrected over it? Have I pointed this out to you two times, three times, five times?

Paul wrote that the Jews DESIRE a sign and that the Greeks SEEK after wisdom. He does not say that signs are for the Jews. Show me one verse that says what you said in the quote above. You are confusing what the Jews and Greeks WANTED with who signs and wisdom are for. Christ is the power of God to them that believe, both Jews and Greeks. Christ is the wisdom of God to them who believe, both Jews and Greeks.

Acts 15:12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.

Here we see God did signs among the Gentiles. You put what the Greeks SOUGHT above what God did. If God does signs among Gentiles, He must have a purpose for it, so it is wrong to think that signs are exclusively for Jews. The Proverbs, written by Hebrews, read by Hebrews, says to seek wisdom. The passage about Greeks seeking wisdom warns of the wisdom of men which is foolishness with God as well.

I guess not all Gentiles see after wisdom.

Is that what you seek to demonstrate? You don't know my ethnicity, btw.

 

[garee]

I wonder if you are committing the logical error of affirming the consequent here. A classic example of that is saying, "If someone commits suicide, he is dead. George is dead. Therefore he must have committed suicide." But George died of a fever.

It would be more like rebuking the sign seekers .Not trying to find saving grace in them. There is not one thing good mentioned in the scriptures as to seeking after signs (no sign gifts)

Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

The Jews sought after the shadows as sign as there way of saying they have the evidence of Spirit of God, as self-fulfilled prophecy.

They were under the illusion of the father of lies. Thinking what they did perform outwardly in respect to the ceremonial laws was evidence that had the Holy Spirit .they had a self-righteousness in respect to their flesh. The scriptures had become to no effect as the final authority in matters of faith (the unseen ).They acknowledged they were Jewish but would not come to faith with God .Rather having the faith that comes from natural man . .I would think the verse below goes to all sign seekers

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. Joh 5:39

It’s an evil generation that sees after a sign. Sign seekers became Christ’s nemesis .It became a battle of seeking after signs as to who is the greatest

And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, “seeking of him a sign from heaven,” tempting him.And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation Mar 8:11

I would ask the same question : why does this generation seek after a sign? Rather than prophecy seeing prophecy is for those who believe God .

The things of God or those of men. No man can serve two masters ?

 

[notuptome]

Is that what you seek to demonstrate? You don't know my ethnicity, btw.

Have I enquired? No. You are simply not interested in what God has said.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Does God desire faith?

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

For the cause of Christ
Roger