Pre Trib Rapture Moment 11: What will trigger the rapture?

[Isdaniel]

I agree the ELECT who return with Christ or are the remnant translated and remaining with Christ will not be having babies. This group of priests and rulers with Jesus probably won't have time or desire to have children or may even be prohibited from having children as you point out in Mat 22. I am speaking about those on earth who the Lord did not slay when He returned, those who will be ruled and taught during the Millennium. They will be in immortal bodies (I'm pretty sure) but will still have mortal souls. Ezek 44:22 indicates that there will still be marriage during the millennium. To be honest, I have not studied the millennial period Ezek 40-48 anywhere near as much as I have Revelation.

The saints change at Jesus coming the babies are born to sinners not saints during the 1000 yr .

Isaiah 65

[SUP]20 [/SUP]There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

 

[konroh]

In Verse 14 Paul is saying is that when God returns, He (GOD) will bring with HIM those who are sleeping in Jesus (the saved in heaven). How do we gain salvation? Through Jesus. This verse has absolutely NOTHING to do with Jesus' Second Coming. When does God return? After the Millennium to establish the new heaven and new earth. Rev 21:1-4 shows us this.

Yowsa?! 1 Thess 4 doesn't have to do with the Lord's return? What do these words mean? 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

And Titus 2:13 says, "Blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Savior" It's definitely the coming of Jesus.

And I still don't understand how Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation, destroys in judgment those who don't believe, resurrects to an immortal body all those who do believe, and yet there are still people with physical bodies who will populate the millenium. The sinners are destroyed, the saints are resurrected. Who's on the earth having children?

And please please please stop telling me that I will see Satan and believe he is Christ just because I believe in a pre-trib Rapture. I think the Rapture is a miraculous event that I will be "caught up in the clouds," I'm just believing the plain meaning of the words of the text. If I'm wrong, then yes, I'll believe I'm in the tribulation, I know Satan and the Antichrist and the False Prophet will do miracles and deceive many, I know there will be many false Christs, I will trust the words of the Olivet discourse (Matt 24) and look to the lightning flashing and the sun being darkened and the Son of Man coming in great glory. I won't look for Jesus on the earth until He comes. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

 

[Isdaniel]

Yowsa?! 1 Thess 4 doesn't have to do with the Lord's return? What do these words mean? 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

And Titus 2:13 says, "Blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Savior" It's definitely the coming of Jesus.

And I still don't understand how Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation, destroys in judgment those who don't believe, resurrects to an immortal body all those who do believe, and yet there are still people with physical bodies who will populate the millenium. The sinners are destroyed, the saints are resurrected. Who's on the earth having children?

And please please please stop telling me that I will see Satan and believe he is Christ just because I believe in a pre-trib Rapture. I think the Rapture is a miraculous event that I will be "caught up in the clouds," I'm just believing the plain meaning of the words of the text. If I'm wrong, then yes, I'll believe I'm in the tribulation, I know Satan and the Antichrist and the False Prophet will do miracles and deceive many, I know there will be many false Christs, I will trust the words of the Olivet discourse (Matt 24) and look to the lightning flashing and the sun being darkened and the Son of Man coming in great glory. I won't look for Jesus on the earth until He comes. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Isaiah 65

[SUP]20 [/SUP]There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

 

[konroh]

Not to beat a dead horse (that's already been done) but the idea of God saving His people from judgment in the Old Testament does not negate the fact that the resurrection is called a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

What is a mystery--something previously hidden but now revealed. Was the resurrection a mystery in the OT? No! Look at Daniel 12. Look at Jesus' response to the Sadducees, God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So what is the mystery? This passage is linked to the resurrection of 1 Thess. 4. The mystery is not that there is a resurrection, the mystery is that there is a Rapture, this was previously unrevealed in the OT.

If you don't believe that the Rapture is a mystery (previously unrevealed) then one must state what the mystery is. It can't be the resurrection, just what is the mystery?

 

[Isdaniel]

Not to beat a dead horse (that's already been done) but the idea of God saving His people from judgment in the Old Testament does not negate the fact that the resurrection is called a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:50NowI saythis,brethren,that fleshand bloodcannotinheritthe kingdomof God;nordoes the perishableinheritthe imperishable. 51Behold,I tellyou a mystery;we will not allsleep,but we will allbe changed, 52in a moment,in the twinklingof an eye,at the lasttrumpet;for the trumpet will sound,and the deadwill be raisedimperishable,and we will be changed.

What is a mystery--something previously hidden but now revealed. Was the resurrection a mystery in the OT? No! Look at Daniel 12. Look at Jesus' response to the Sadducees, God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So what is the mystery? This passage is linked to the resurrection of 1 Thess. 4. The mystery is not that there is a resurrection, the mystery is that there is a Rapture, this was previously unrevealed in the OT.

If you don't believe that the Rapture is a mystery (previously unrevealed) then one must state what the mystery is. It can't be the resurrection, just what is the mystery?

Revelation 10
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[leo1]

Has anyone noticed how the non-pre-trib believers enjoy and pride themselves with name slinging those that believe in pre-trib.....retards, false prophets, Satan's kids, blind people, liars, sinners, fools and the list goes on.
do they not know that,whether they like it or not, are brothers and sisters of those that believe in pre-trib?....do they really think our Lord is happy with that behavior?........just a reminder.

ok here's another reminder.When Jesus was in the temple overthrowing tables and beating or berating the money lenders ...what would senior member graybeard tell him? "there there my Lord they are our brothers who need to feed their family"??I think not,I have a dirty job to do,if you don't like the way i do it,please by all means do it your way,but don't tell me how to do my job if you are not ready to do it yourself!!besides i have already apologized to the rapture ready retards.have they apologized to the millions of our brothers whom they have corrupted with this crazy fairy tale?

 

[Isdaniel]

[h=3]2 Corinthians 11 [/h]King James Version (KJV)

11 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.

 

[Isdaniel]

[h=3]alatians 3[/h]King James Version (KJV)
3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

 

[Graybeard]

ok here's another reminder.When Jesus was in the temple overthrowing tables and beating or berating the money lenders ...what would senior member graybeard tell him? "there there my Lord they are our brothers who need to feed their family"??I think not,I have a dirty job to do,if you don't like the way i do it,please by all means do it your way,but don't tell me how to do my job if you are not ready to do it yourself!!besides i have already apologized to the rapture ready retards.have they apologized to the millions of our brothers whom they have corrupted with this crazy fairy tale?

those were not brothers of Christ.......you need to read the Bible and see what the real Jesus teaches regarding how brothers in Christ are to speak and behave with and to one another, like Jesus said "you will know them by their fruits"........

 

[PlainWord]

Yowsa?! 1 Thess 4 doesn't have to do with the Lord's return? What do these words mean? 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

You didn't catch the break, did you? Let's try again another way to see if you can get this:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant , brethren, concerning them which are asleep , that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again , even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The above two verses deal with end of Millennium, when God returns with the new heaven. The key phrase is in bold. It is GOD doing the bringing here, not Christ. God does not return with Christ, God returns after the millennium.
______________________________________________________________________________________________
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The above 3 verses deal with the Lord's Second Coming AFTER the Tribulation. I think many forgot that there is another period of Satanic temptation which follows the Millennium because we are all focused on things that may pertain to us.

 

[PlainWord]

And Titus 2:13 says, "Blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Savior" It's definitely the coming of Jesus.

It's SALVATION!!! Only a handful of Christians will be alive and remaining at the coming of Jesus. Therefore this statement is broader than just being applicable to them. It is for ALL BELIEVERS who are saved. Far more realize this blessing through death than through the Return of Christ.

 

[PlainWord]

And please please please stop telling me that I will see Satan and believe he is Christ just because I believe in a pre-trib Rapture. I think the Rapture is a miraculous event that I will be "caught up in the clouds," I'm just believing the plain meaning of the words of the text. If I'm wrong, then yes, I'll believe I'm in the tribulation, I know Satan and the Antichrist and the False Prophet will do miracles and deceive many, I know there will be many false Christs, I will trust the words of the Olivet discourse (Matt 24) and look to the lightning flashing and the sun being darkened and the Son of Man coming in great glory. I won't look for Jesus on the earth until He comes. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

I have hope that you will be able to discern when the time comes. But what happens if you are asleep and are awakened by a spiritual being in your bedroom claiming to be an angel sent from God to take you to the Rapture? Do you go?

Look at Mat 24:

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

How are you gathered? By angels. Now look at Rev 9:

15 And the four angels were loosed , which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

18 By these three was the third part of men killed , by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

You see what I mean? You think, as most do, that you will just be snatched up into the clouds as an involuntary event in the Rapture. But that isn't what is taught. The Lord send His angels so how will you know if an angel is from God or Satan? Have you ever seen an angel before? I haven't. The only way I will know is that Satan sends his angels first.

 

[Josh321]

Revelation 10
[SUP]7[/SUP]But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

this already passed, the 7th angel of the laodicea age came and went people just missed the message

 

[Josh321]

know what i find amazing? it's like some people are afraid to believe.. so many scriptures prove that they will be a rapture but it's like some people are afraid to believe or don't even want to understand, " a thief in the night" doesn't a thief steal? what is that verse trying to say, what will be stolen that the owners of the world will not know? the born again christians, i'm not even gonna explain the rest, [h=3]Matthew 7:6 ESV / 9 helpful votes[/h]“Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

not gonna try to help people who don't even wanna help themselves, so proud in their own belief to even consider anything else, may God open the eyes of these people before it's too late

 

[leo1]

those were not brothers of Christ.......you need to read the Bible and see what the real Jesus teaches regarding how brothers in Christ are to speak and behave with and to one another, like Jesus said "you will know them by their fruits"........

ok deep breath, telling me that i need to read the bible is like telling me to breath!kind sir i have a masters in theology, I HAVE read the bible and i have talked to the author whenever i was confused. i have read the koran so i would know my enemy and their weakness,i have read the art of war so i would know the best way to battle my enemy,i have read the teachings of Buddha the obese, just in case there was anything i could use in my battle,now i understand if Father has not given senior member graybeard a job to do yet,that is his deal, but please do not hinder mine, we can discuss our tactics later but now there is a war on the near horizon and we need all able bodied christians to suit up, if you are not one of these?its cool, i will keep looking but to argue semantics over who is a brother or not or over language is foolish and time consuming, so please if you have nothing intelligent to add to the debate let those who are passionate about it DO THEIR JOB, i have several allies in this battle and i sincerely appreciate their help, you however are hindering our cause with negativity....but never,never NEVER insinuate that i have not read the good book extensively!!!!

 

[PlainWord]

51Behold,I tellyou a mystery;we will not allsleep,but we will allbe changed, 52in a moment,in the twinklingof an eye,at the lasttrumpet;for the trumpet will sound,and the deadwill be raisedimperishable,and we will be changed.

It isn't a mystery anymore. Paul just explained the mystery to us, therefore the Rapture isn't a mystery that isn't told. Mysteries are shared with God's people. Paul and Jesus both revealed what many mysteries were to us. The above mystery of the resurrection is just what Paul says it is, a changing of those alive and the resurrection of the dead. And it happens at the Last Trump, the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

Notice also that Paul says we won't all sleep but we all will be changed. This implies that some will remain sleeping. This agrees with Rev 20:4-6.

 

[PlainWord]

know what i find amazing? it's like some people are afraid to believe.. so many scriptures prove that they will be a rapture but it's like some people are afraid to believe or don't even want to understand, " a thief in the night" doesn't a thief steal? what is that verse trying to say, what will be stolen that the owners of the world will not know? the born again christians, i'm not even gonna explain the rest, Matthew 7:6 ESV / 9 helpful votes

“Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

not gonna try to help people who don't even wanna help themselves, so proud in their own belief to even consider anything else, may God open the eyes of these people before it's too late

My dear fellow, the scriptures do NOT prove a Pre-trib Rapture. In fact they warn repeatedly against such teaching. Furthermore, the thief analogy applies to the Second Coming, not some fabricated earlier Rapture. Check out Rev 16:15.

15 Behold , I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Notice where in the sequence of events this takes place? Between the 6th and 7th Bowl. These Bowls are at the tail end of the Tribulation, just before Christ returns. You should really read this and focus on the whole meaning. Not only does this passage totally dispel the myth that there is an earlier return (unless the Lord returns as a thief both times), it also warns about "walking naked." I'm sure if we ask Leo he will agree in this context it doesn't mean running around without clothes on, it means NOT HAVING THE TRUTH. Why will those without the truth be shamed? Because they have to stand before God and explain why they did not listen to HIS clear instructions as to when His Son would return. Instead, they played the Harlot with Babylon - which means confusion.

Satan is the author of confusion, not God. If the Rapture was real, it would have been written clearly so there could be no misunderstanding. But God wants to test us. He tells us He will test us. But you think you can skip the test and still get an A.

 

[konroh]

Thanks for the Rev. 10:6 verse, I can honestly say I've never seen that.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again , even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thess 4 context is that the Thessalonians were worried that their brothers and sisters in Christ who were dead were not going to be resurrected or miss out in some way in Christ's return. Christ brings the dead in Christ with him, their bodies are resurrected first, then those who are alive and remain are caught up for a glorious family reunion with Christ in the clouds.

The interpretation that these verses somehow speak of the end of the millenium and then the 2nd coming at the end of the tribulation is violent eisegesis. There is no excuse to berate the pre-trib position for splitting Jesus' return into something before and after the tribulation period while at the same time splitting 1 Thess 4 up into 2 returns 1000 years apart and in reverse chronological order. No excuse.

Tit. 2:11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Yes, every Christian recognizes that the grace of God has appeared, we are to live godly while awaiting the blessed hope and return of Christ. I doubt there is one published commentary that is attached to any Christian or Bible college that denies that these verses speak of Christ's return. The term appearing, epipháneia, occurs 6 times and it always refers to the 2nd coming, or return of Jesus, it's actually a technical term for this.

 

[konroh]

There is some misunderstanding over what the term mystery, musterion in Greek, actually means. The mystery that Jesus joins Jew and Gentile into one body was something previously unrevealed but was now revealed. There was no inkling in the OT that God was going to combine Jew and Gentile into one. In the same way, the mystery of 1 Cor. 15 was previously unrevealed. But the fact that there was a resurrection was revealed, so that can't be the mystery, the mystery in my opinion is that this resurrection is connected to a Rapture. The fact that I've had to explain what the term mystery signifies means that it hasn't been understood. It's not that the term signifies some sort of misty unknowability like we use the term mysterious, it actually is better defined as "revelation," or "eureka", some new understanding that wasn't there before. The Babylon harlot is deemed a mystery, a new revelation, as well as the 7th trumpet (Rev. 10:6).

Notice also that Paul says we won't all sleep but we all will be changed. This implies that some will remain sleeping. This agrees with Rev 20:4-6.

It absolutely does not imply that some will remain sleeping, sleeping is death! It implies that some won't sleep! Some will be alive at the time of resurrection. Paul says that we won't all die but we will all be changed. Whether we die before the Rapture or whether we live we will all be changed, resurrected. It actually disagrees with Rev. 20 because in Rev. 20 we do have some who are not resurrected, and yet in 1 Cor. 15 it says "all will be changed" and resurrected.

Not only does this passage totally dispel the myth that there is an earlier return (unless the Lord returns as a thief both times), it also warns about "walking naked."

Yes! He returns as a thief both times. And walking naked is being ashamed at not waiting expectantly for the 2nd Coming, especially since there are so many bowls of wrath predicting it.

Christians have testing, no doubt, but because the Christian church has endured, God will keep them from the hour of testing that will come on the whole world. Rev. 3:10

 

[konroh]

The angels from Matt. 24 gather the elect from all corners of the earth--it's an involuntary thing. Those who are called will be gathered.

The angels in Rev. 9 go out from Apollyon the Destroyer and kill 1/3 of mankind, I don't think the 1/3 have a choice in the matter. The 4 angels seem to control the 200 million demons. These demons are also well-described and should be recognizable. 17The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.