yes, of course...we ain't special,this is why the uninformed believe they will be taken out of the great tribulation before it starts.who wants to think they will have to go through hell to get to heaven? Why not believe that they are like Enoch and Elijah and God likes them soooo much that he doesn't want them to feel the sting of death?...
Pre Trib Rapture Moment 11: What will trigger the rapture?
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but of course we are special!.....didn't you know?
Tit 2:14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Tit 2:14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
We don't need to guess on this as it is clear from Rev 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
The Tribulation, or hour of trial as it is called here shall come upon the WHOLE WORLD. Only those who kept HIS command to persevere, which are His sealed ELECT, are exempt from Satan's test which is to fool the World into thinking He is the Christ. But how can Satan deceive us if we are Raptured you ask????
My answer - EXACTLY, How can he!!!!
Another point that nobody makes which is so important and yet I often forget to mention it.
Rev 20:
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth
Notice how Satan will be released again after the 1,000 years are over. Now why would God allow that?? The answer is right there - "TO DECEIVE THE NATIONS" again. You see, everyone has to be tempted or tested. Everyone must decide between God and Satan.
Do you see any Rapture being taught here after the 1,000 years are up to spare Christians from this test, or deception??? No you don't. So why would we be spared the test now??? Why does Israel get tested and refined through fire? Why do the post Millennial believers get tested but we don't??? What makes us so special?
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
The Tribulation, or hour of trial as it is called here shall come upon the WHOLE WORLD. Only those who kept HIS command to persevere, which are His sealed ELECT, are exempt from Satan's test which is to fool the World into thinking He is the Christ. But how can Satan deceive us if we are Raptured you ask????
My answer - EXACTLY, How can he!!!!
Another point that nobody makes which is so important and yet I often forget to mention it.
Rev 20:
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth
Notice how Satan will be released again after the 1,000 years are over. Now why would God allow that?? The answer is right there - "TO DECEIVE THE NATIONS" again. You see, everyone has to be tempted or tested. Everyone must decide between God and Satan.
Do you see any Rapture being taught here after the 1,000 years are up to spare Christians from this test, or deception??? No you don't. So why would we be spared the test now??? Why does Israel get tested and refined through fire? Why do the post Millennial believers get tested but we don't??? What makes us so special?
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I think a lot of Christians don't understand what the Great Tribulation is. They are thrown by all the imagery of Revelation with Mountains being cast into the sea and stars being thrown to earth, and waters being turned to blood, etc. All of this confuses many Christians into thinking God would never put His children through all of this, thus they believe in the Rapture as an alternative. However, Revelation is mostly speaking in spiritual terms and not literal terms. Jesus tells us in Mat 24 that it will be like the Days of Noah, just prior to His return. Nobody (who isn't watching) will see Him coming until it's too late.
Let's see how Jesus describes the Great Tribulation period from Mat 24:
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days... . 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Notice nothing about all the turmoil described in Revelation??? It is all about Satan's deception and NOT FALLING FOR IT!!
Just look at what the Lord describes between the start and end. Look at all the warnings!! Why even have warnings if He plans to Rapture us? Christ is speaking to His SAVED disciples, not unsaved Jews.
Since we are told Satan will be deceiving the whole world, worse than he ever has, is there anything Satan might be doing now to deceive Christians? Is there any doctrine (NOT SPECIFICALLY TAUGHT) being taught that will help Satan fool Christians??? HMMM.
Let's see how Jesus describes the Great Tribulation period from Mat 24:
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days... . 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Notice nothing about all the turmoil described in Revelation??? It is all about Satan's deception and NOT FALLING FOR IT!!
Just look at what the Lord describes between the start and end. Look at all the warnings!! Why even have warnings if He plans to Rapture us? Christ is speaking to His SAVED disciples, not unsaved Jews.
Since we are told Satan will be deceiving the whole world, worse than he ever has, is there anything Satan might be doing now to deceive Christians? Is there any doctrine (NOT SPECIFICALLY TAUGHT) being taught that will help Satan fool Christians??? HMMM.
Believing in the pre-trib rapture doesn't come from the desire to escape any more than believing in the post-trib rapture comes from a desire to suffer. What does Rev. 3:10 mean? It surely speaks of some sort of deliverance, or escape. What does 1 Thess. 1:10 mean, rescued from the wrath to come?
It's true that every generation is tested. Believing in a pre-trib Rapture doesn't negate that, in fact it acknowledges that Satan is presently unbound and deceiving the nations, working as the prince of the power of the air. There will also be great testing during the 7 year tribulation--in fact, the greatest tribulation the world will ever see. Jesus speaks of this in the Olivet discourse, and while He was talking to His disciples, He was talking to His Jewish disciples, and the answers are in that context. They are asking about their temple, their Jerusalem, and what their kingly Messiah was going to do in light of this. Jesus answers that Jerusalem will be destroyed, the temple will be abominated, and that He will arrive with power and retribution.
It's true that every generation is tested. Believing in a pre-trib Rapture doesn't negate that, in fact it acknowledges that Satan is presently unbound and deceiving the nations, working as the prince of the power of the air. There will also be great testing during the 7 year tribulation--in fact, the greatest tribulation the world will ever see. Jesus speaks of this in the Olivet discourse, and while He was talking to His disciples, He was talking to His Jewish disciples, and the answers are in that context. They are asking about their temple, their Jerusalem, and what their kingly Messiah was going to do in light of this. Jesus answers that Jerusalem will be destroyed, the temple will be abominated, and that He will arrive with power and retribution.
Correct and when does Jesus say in the Discourse that He will return???? So why do you think he would not tell the Father's of His church about any earlier return? Was the Rapture supposed to be a secret? Was the Rapture something that was only revealed to Paul and not the disciples? Is that what you believe??
23 But take ye heed : behold , I have foretold you all things.
How many things did Jesus say He told the disciples in Mark 13, keep in mind, this is the same Discourse you are discussing? Let me help you answer this. He said ALL THINGS!!! Can you find the Rapture being taught in the Olivet Discourse??
As for 1 Thes 1:10. Correct, the Lord will deliver us from the wrath to come. But does Paul teach HOW the Lord will do it? Let's look and see.
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
I don't see a "HOW" there do you? What I do see is that we are to wait. Hmm, that's interesting. Do we have a choice but to wait if there is a Rapture? If there is a pre-trib Rapture why tell us to wait? It's not like we are going off to heaven on our own, unless we die of course. Wait, maybe Paul is instructing us to wait for the real CHRIST to return and no go out after the false Christ. Ever consider that?
Man it sure would be nice if someone told us when Jesus really returned. Wait, the Lord tells us and so does Paul in his next letter to the Thessalonians. 2 Thes 2:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled , neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed...
Do you see where Paul instructs us NOT TO BE DECEIVED BY ANY MEANS FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD SHALL NOT COME, until after the falling away and man of sin is revealed. Don't you find it just a little odd that Paul didn't add a qualifier like this, "except for the Rapture which comes before the Man of Sin is revealed?" Don't you find it just a little bit strange that Paul would be teaching the Thessalonians in his first letter that they were to be Raptured before the Tribulation then teach them in his second letter that they won't be Raptured until after the Tribulation? That is so strange. Two different teachings or futures for 1 group of people. Maybe, just maybe there is only ONE RETURN of Christ. Now wouldn't that be something??
You know dear Brother or Sister, God is not the author of confusion. But Satan is. Babylon or Babel means Confusion. Satan has mastered it. But you don't have to be confused. Stick to the Word of God as it is crystal clear on this topic. ONE RETURN AFTER the TRIBULATION.
23 But take ye heed : behold , I have foretold you all things.
How many things did Jesus say He told the disciples in Mark 13, keep in mind, this is the same Discourse you are discussing? Let me help you answer this. He said ALL THINGS!!! Can you find the Rapture being taught in the Olivet Discourse??
As for 1 Thes 1:10. Correct, the Lord will deliver us from the wrath to come. But does Paul teach HOW the Lord will do it? Let's look and see.
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
I don't see a "HOW" there do you? What I do see is that we are to wait. Hmm, that's interesting. Do we have a choice but to wait if there is a Rapture? If there is a pre-trib Rapture why tell us to wait? It's not like we are going off to heaven on our own, unless we die of course. Wait, maybe Paul is instructing us to wait for the real CHRIST to return and no go out after the false Christ. Ever consider that?
Man it sure would be nice if someone told us when Jesus really returned. Wait, the Lord tells us and so does Paul in his next letter to the Thessalonians. 2 Thes 2:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled , neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed...
Do you see where Paul instructs us NOT TO BE DECEIVED BY ANY MEANS FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD SHALL NOT COME, until after the falling away and man of sin is revealed. Don't you find it just a little odd that Paul didn't add a qualifier like this, "except for the Rapture which comes before the Man of Sin is revealed?" Don't you find it just a little bit strange that Paul would be teaching the Thessalonians in his first letter that they were to be Raptured before the Tribulation then teach them in his second letter that they won't be Raptured until after the Tribulation? That is so strange. Two different teachings or futures for 1 group of people. Maybe, just maybe there is only ONE RETURN of Christ. Now wouldn't that be something??
You know dear Brother or Sister, God is not the author of confusion. But Satan is. Babylon or Babel means Confusion. Satan has mastered it. But you don't have to be confused. Stick to the Word of God as it is crystal clear on this topic. ONE RETURN AFTER the TRIBULATION.
luke 21
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Jesus said I have told you all things in advance. We've already had this argument. It surely doesn't mean that there is nothing more to say about the end times. Why would we even have 1 & 2 thess. and Rev. then? Do they add nothing to what Jesus has already said? Is this what Jesus means? No. He simply says, "Look, I've told you what you need to know, you've been warned." I agree that there isn't a depiction of the Rapture in the Olivet discourses, but there is in John 14:3, which is also the last night Jesus was talking to them. The Olivet discourse happened earlier in the week.
I agree that separating Jesus' coming into 2 events (Rapture and 2nd coming) must come with study. But when we see how the term "coming of the Lord" is not a technical term in Scripture, it's a general term. It doesn't by necessity of Greek grammar have to speak of one event any more than when I tell my wife, "Wait for me, I'm coming home from work" means I'm only coming home once, I'll never go to work again and come again.
And there are so many differences between 1 Thess 4, 1 Cor. 15 and John 14:3 and the 2nd coming.
Rapture has the saints meeting Christ in the air, being with Him always, being resurrected, going to the Father's house in heaven.
The 2nd coming has the Son of Man coming in the clouds and His feet touch the Mt. of Olives on earth (Zech. 14:4-5), the 2nd coming does have a gathering of the saints, but it does not have a resurrection, otherwise there would be no need for the judgment of the sheep and the goats (the nations) in Matt. 25. There would also be no possibility of the saints having children and farms and continuing on earth (Is. 65) if they are translated (resurrected).
And Paul presents the order of events, 1 Thess. 4 precedes the day of the Lord in ch. 5 and the entire discussion of 2 Thess. He's already spoken of the Rapture, now He speaks of the Antichrist, which happens after the idea of the restrainer being taken away, which is easily a picture of the Rapture, the Holy Spirit in the saints being taken to heaven, meaning the Rapture occurs first.
In Titus 2:13 we're told to look for the "blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the Savior." But isn't this in contrast to the Olivet discourse, where the disciples are told to look at the signs, the illustration of the fig tree, before the 2nd coming? The entire point of Jesus' discourse is to point out all the signs that will happen before the 2nd coming. How can we look for the blessed hope and glorious appearing if there are all the signs preceding it? Don't we look for the signs first? Tit. 2:13 speaks of the "blessed hope and the glorious appearing" of the Rapture.
I agree that separating Jesus' coming into 2 events (Rapture and 2nd coming) must come with study. But when we see how the term "coming of the Lord" is not a technical term in Scripture, it's a general term. It doesn't by necessity of Greek grammar have to speak of one event any more than when I tell my wife, "Wait for me, I'm coming home from work" means I'm only coming home once, I'll never go to work again and come again.
And there are so many differences between 1 Thess 4, 1 Cor. 15 and John 14:3 and the 2nd coming.
Rapture has the saints meeting Christ in the air, being with Him always, being resurrected, going to the Father's house in heaven.
The 2nd coming has the Son of Man coming in the clouds and His feet touch the Mt. of Olives on earth (Zech. 14:4-5), the 2nd coming does have a gathering of the saints, but it does not have a resurrection, otherwise there would be no need for the judgment of the sheep and the goats (the nations) in Matt. 25. There would also be no possibility of the saints having children and farms and continuing on earth (Is. 65) if they are translated (resurrected).
And Paul presents the order of events, 1 Thess. 4 precedes the day of the Lord in ch. 5 and the entire discussion of 2 Thess. He's already spoken of the Rapture, now He speaks of the Antichrist, which happens after the idea of the restrainer being taken away, which is easily a picture of the Rapture, the Holy Spirit in the saints being taken to heaven, meaning the Rapture occurs first.
In Titus 2:13 we're told to look for the "blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the Savior." But isn't this in contrast to the Olivet discourse, where the disciples are told to look at the signs, the illustration of the fig tree, before the 2nd coming? The entire point of Jesus' discourse is to point out all the signs that will happen before the 2nd coming. How can we look for the blessed hope and glorious appearing if there are all the signs preceding it? Don't we look for the signs first? Tit. 2:13 speaks of the "blessed hope and the glorious appearing" of the Rapture.
Let me try to simplify this because most churches and most pastors don't have a clue and thus don't teach end times or teach it wrong.
1. Christ returns at the 7th trumpet, just as it is written everywhere.
2. He brings His army of angels with him and the Elect who were martyred during the Tribulation, Rev 19-20
3. Those of His ELECT who are alive and remaining through the Tribulation are gathered to him and changed. 1 Thes 4, 1 Cor 15.
4. The entire 144K are seen reunited and are with the Lord on Mount Zion, Rev 14:1. This group rules the earth and serves as priests with the Lord for 1,000 years, Rev 20.
5. When the Lord returns EVERYBODY who is still alive receives an immortal body, 1 Cor 15. But this does not mean their souls will be immortal. Earth returns to pre-Adamic sin state, Isa 65. No physical deaths or illness until the end.
6. Nations are separated into Goat and Sheep Nations and ruled by Christ and the Elect, Mat 25
7. Those saved in heaven who do not return with Jesus remain asleep with the Father. Rev 20.
8. God brings all those in heaven with him when He returns to establish the new heaven and earth when the 1,000 years are up. 1 Thes 4:14
1. Christ returns at the 7th trumpet, just as it is written everywhere.
2. He brings His army of angels with him and the Elect who were martyred during the Tribulation, Rev 19-20
3. Those of His ELECT who are alive and remaining through the Tribulation are gathered to him and changed. 1 Thes 4, 1 Cor 15.
4. The entire 144K are seen reunited and are with the Lord on Mount Zion, Rev 14:1. This group rules the earth and serves as priests with the Lord for 1,000 years, Rev 20.
5. When the Lord returns EVERYBODY who is still alive receives an immortal body, 1 Cor 15. But this does not mean their souls will be immortal. Earth returns to pre-Adamic sin state, Isa 65. No physical deaths or illness until the end.
6. Nations are separated into Goat and Sheep Nations and ruled by Christ and the Elect, Mat 25
7. Those saved in heaven who do not return with Jesus remain asleep with the Father. Rev 20.
8. God brings all those in heaven with him when He returns to establish the new heaven and earth when the 1,000 years are up. 1 Thes 4:14
I already responded to your misunderstanding of John 14 in another thread. Here it is again...
This statement cannot apply to Christ's disciples being Raptured because all died before He returned. Therefore the Coming Again portion of it must apply only to Christians who will be alive on earth when He returns again. Correct?
If this is correct, we have 2,000 years where this is absolutely applicable and accurate. There are mansions for the dead Christians in heaven, no argument. All those saved who have died since Christ ascended are in heaven with Him. 2,000 years worth of those who died in Christ, and those who were resurrected at His crucifixion are in HIS house in heaven with the many rooms right now as I write this. Would you agree?
If there is a Pre-Trib Rapture, does this mean that Christ returns, raptures us and we get to spend 7 years in those rooms before He takes us all back to earth? There is one undeniable truth that I think most of us believe, Christ will return and reign on earth for 1,000 years. So, this statement cannot be applicable for that 1,000 year period because we would no longer be in heaven for those 1,000 years. Instead we would be on earth with Him because it's clear, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." The Lord isn't bringing those rooms with Him as we don't have any passage telling us that. Heaven remains where it is until the 1,000 years are over, we have passages for this.
Therefore the last sentence would appear to NOT be discussing the rooms in heaven anymore but rather, being with the Lord wherever He is. Let's look at the last sentence in this context and see if it makes sense.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
The Lord has to be saying that if He goes and prepares a place for us (which He is clearly saying) that he will come again and take you (another way of saying this would be "gather you") until myself, that where I am you may be also.
And where will the Lord be for the Millennial reign? Right here on earth. So He is saying He will gather those of us who are alive and remaining (through the Tribulation) to Himself right here on earth to live and reign with Him for 1,000 years. This has to be the explanation as NO OTHER POSSIBLE EXPLANATION exists without creating other conflicts. We have to reconcile John 14 to Rev 20.
Rev 20:
...Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Who reigns for the 1,000 years with Christ? It isn't everybody. Those that come back with Christ are only the souls who have been beheaded, who had not worshiped the beast or taken his mark. That's it. You won't find many churches teaching this but this is what is clearly taught by the WORD OF GOD!!! There is absolutely no mention of the "Raptured Saints" returning with the Lord. You won't find a single passage anywhere in the Bible that says or even hints at a Raptured Group in heaven. You only see the "Dead" in heaven. Why?? Because there is NO RAPTURE where anyone is taken to heaven. Only those who are alive and remaining after the tribulation get caught up or gathered and changed. This is the remnant, what's left of the 144,000.
What happens to the rest of the dead? The answer is in blue. The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. They don't live again until the 1,000 years are finished. So if there was a Rapture and untold millions were taken to heaven they must stay there during the 1,000 years. But if they stay there, then John 14 is a lie. If they return then Rev 20 is a lie. How about neither being a lie and instead the Rapture is the lie???? That certainly solves all the conflicts now doesn't it???
So what happens with the phrase about "being absent from the body and present with the Lord" if not all of us return?? That's a great question, right? The answer is clear, those that remain in heaven for the 1,000 years will be asleep for 1 heaven day. 2 Peter 3 teaches us this. Those asleep take part in the 2nd resurrection.
This statement cannot apply to Christ's disciples being Raptured because all died before He returned. Therefore the Coming Again portion of it must apply only to Christians who will be alive on earth when He returns again. Correct?
If this is correct, we have 2,000 years where this is absolutely applicable and accurate. There are mansions for the dead Christians in heaven, no argument. All those saved who have died since Christ ascended are in heaven with Him. 2,000 years worth of those who died in Christ, and those who were resurrected at His crucifixion are in HIS house in heaven with the many rooms right now as I write this. Would you agree?
If there is a Pre-Trib Rapture, does this mean that Christ returns, raptures us and we get to spend 7 years in those rooms before He takes us all back to earth? There is one undeniable truth that I think most of us believe, Christ will return and reign on earth for 1,000 years. So, this statement cannot be applicable for that 1,000 year period because we would no longer be in heaven for those 1,000 years. Instead we would be on earth with Him because it's clear, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." The Lord isn't bringing those rooms with Him as we don't have any passage telling us that. Heaven remains where it is until the 1,000 years are over, we have passages for this.
Therefore the last sentence would appear to NOT be discussing the rooms in heaven anymore but rather, being with the Lord wherever He is. Let's look at the last sentence in this context and see if it makes sense.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
The Lord has to be saying that if He goes and prepares a place for us (which He is clearly saying) that he will come again and take you (another way of saying this would be "gather you") until myself, that where I am you may be also.
And where will the Lord be for the Millennial reign? Right here on earth. So He is saying He will gather those of us who are alive and remaining (through the Tribulation) to Himself right here on earth to live and reign with Him for 1,000 years. This has to be the explanation as NO OTHER POSSIBLE EXPLANATION exists without creating other conflicts. We have to reconcile John 14 to Rev 20.
Rev 20:
...Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Who reigns for the 1,000 years with Christ? It isn't everybody. Those that come back with Christ are only the souls who have been beheaded, who had not worshiped the beast or taken his mark. That's it. You won't find many churches teaching this but this is what is clearly taught by the WORD OF GOD!!! There is absolutely no mention of the "Raptured Saints" returning with the Lord. You won't find a single passage anywhere in the Bible that says or even hints at a Raptured Group in heaven. You only see the "Dead" in heaven. Why?? Because there is NO RAPTURE where anyone is taken to heaven. Only those who are alive and remaining after the tribulation get caught up or gathered and changed. This is the remnant, what's left of the 144,000.
What happens to the rest of the dead? The answer is in blue. The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. They don't live again until the 1,000 years are finished. So if there was a Rapture and untold millions were taken to heaven they must stay there during the 1,000 years. But if they stay there, then John 14 is a lie. If they return then Rev 20 is a lie. How about neither being a lie and instead the Rapture is the lie???? That certainly solves all the conflicts now doesn't it???
So what happens with the phrase about "being absent from the body and present with the Lord" if not all of us return?? That's a great question, right? The answer is clear, those that remain in heaven for the 1,000 years will be asleep for 1 heaven day. 2 Peter 3 teaches us this. Those asleep take part in the 2nd resurrection.
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[h=3]Ezekiel 21[/h]King James Version (KJV)
21 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face toward Jerusalem, and drop thy word toward the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel,
3 And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.
4 Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north:
5 That all flesh may know that I the Lord have drawn forth my sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more.
21 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face toward Jerusalem, and drop thy word toward the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel,
3 And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.
4 Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north:
5 That all flesh may know that I the Lord have drawn forth my sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more.
There are NO INCONSISTENCIES WITH THE ONE RETURN, AFTER THE TRIBULATION TEACHING. You just don't understand. In an effort to have what you think are inconsistencies solved, man invented the Rapture, with a little help from the Prince of the Air.
Let me see if I can help you. But you may want to pray first and ask God to give you guidance, to show you the truth. I'm not suggesting this to be condenscending, I'm saying this in case you already received the Strong Delusion that Paul talks about. I had to do this myself some 25 years ago, then Wham, all of a sudden I saw!! Not making that up.
1. Rapture has the saints meeting Christ in the air. No, check out the Greek for "air." It means "breathe or alive."
2. there are so many differences between 1 Thess 4, 1 Cor. 15 and John 14:3 and the 2nd coming. No, all are consistent with the one return. See posts #55 and #56. What part are you struggling with? The resurrection is absolutely taught as part of the second coming. Check out John 6:40, 44, 54, John 11:48, Daniel 12:2 and Rev 20:4-6. The going to the father's house in heaven applies to those who die, not the remnant that makes it through the Tribulation. You need to check out the Greek for "Clouds." One possible translation is the mists of a mountaintop. If that is the correct translation, it would sure change things for you, right?
3. There would also be no possibility of the saints having children and farms and continuing on earth (Is. 65) if they are translated. Why would you say that? Just because we will all be in perfect, immortal bodies doesn't mean we can't have kids. Of course those on earth can have kids. Heck Satan and his angels were sleeping with mortals all the time before the Flood. So obviously you can have children. Obviously people will still eat. Adam and Eve were told to eat of the fruit before they sinned. Everything is going back to the pre-sin state.
Let me see if I can help you. But you may want to pray first and ask God to give you guidance, to show you the truth. I'm not suggesting this to be condenscending, I'm saying this in case you already received the Strong Delusion that Paul talks about. I had to do this myself some 25 years ago, then Wham, all of a sudden I saw!! Not making that up.
1. Rapture has the saints meeting Christ in the air. No, check out the Greek for "air." It means "breathe or alive."
2. there are so many differences between 1 Thess 4, 1 Cor. 15 and John 14:3 and the 2nd coming. No, all are consistent with the one return. See posts #55 and #56. What part are you struggling with? The resurrection is absolutely taught as part of the second coming. Check out John 6:40, 44, 54, John 11:48, Daniel 12:2 and Rev 20:4-6. The going to the father's house in heaven applies to those who die, not the remnant that makes it through the Tribulation. You need to check out the Greek for "Clouds." One possible translation is the mists of a mountaintop. If that is the correct translation, it would sure change things for you, right?
3. There would also be no possibility of the saints having children and farms and continuing on earth (Is. 65) if they are translated. Why would you say that? Just because we will all be in perfect, immortal bodies doesn't mean we can't have kids. Of course those on earth can have kids. Heck Satan and his angels were sleeping with mortals all the time before the Flood. So obviously you can have children. Obviously people will still eat. Adam and Eve were told to eat of the fruit before they sinned. Everything is going back to the pre-sin state.
It isn't enough to love God, you need to obey Him too. One of His commandments is to NOT Worship idols or false Gods. If you are following false teachings of Satan you will get punished. Isaiah made that pretty clear below. This passage compares and contrasts the Elect with the Great Multitude in heaven who were deceived by the false one.
12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called , ye did not answer ; when I spake , ye did not hear ; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat , but ye shall be hungry : behold, my servants shall drink , but ye shall be thirsty : behold, my servants shall rejoice , but ye shall be ashamed :
14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
Notice the great multitude of Rev 7 were hungry, thirsty and crying????
12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called , ye did not answer ; when I spake , ye did not hear ; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat , but ye shall be hungry : behold, my servants shall drink , but ye shall be thirsty : behold, my servants shall rejoice , but ye shall be ashamed :
14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
Notice the great multitude of Rev 7 were hungry, thirsty and crying????