Pre-tribulation raptiure or post-tribulation rapture?

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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,783
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#41
There are sites that list the verses. Pre/post/mid/and who knows what else (this site is one of many) It is all there.

Pretrib incorporates them all (verses)
Postrib is 100% conjecture.
Historicist/preterist still ,to this day, do not realise ,"dispensation" is what God uses in his word.
Feel free to quote the book, chapter and verse where the word "dispensation" is found in the Bible. It is certainly not in any of the versions I checked, nor in the Greek.

As for the rapture, that is another verse you might want to quote the book, chapter and verse for. Because the only place you can find it is the Latin Vulgate, which was a bad translation of the Greek.

As for 1 Thess 4:17 - "meet" is ἀπάντησιν or transliterated "apantesin." It means "meet and return" and is only used in two other places in the Bible. The verse simply does NOT say, "go to heaven." We will be returning with Jesus to the New Earth when he returns. If you want me to exegete the word more completely, just ask and I will.

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess. 4:17 Greek

Besides, you should never base an entire eschatology on just one verse in the Bible. Bad heremeneutics!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#42
Post tribulation, pre-wrath gathering at the 7th trump of Revelation....go to my blog on this site and read the book I wrote concerning the body presence of Christ and our gathering together unto him....there is only one general resurrection/change of the saints and it is not Pre-Revelation, Pre-Tribulation as it is POST TRIB...PRE-WRATH.....I used to believe pre-trib and after 26 years of studying that I have come to the conclusion it is false and a Johnny come lately false teaching!
 
F

flob

Guest
#43
it is POST TRIB...PRE-WRATH
That is an odd phrase I never heard until.........this place.
I'm guessing you mean 7 bowls get poured out.........
so to be super-accurate, wouldn't that be end-trib or 'just-about-end-trib' Rapture?
Isn't that what you're saying?

Like I say, that particular idea or phrase 'post-trib = pre wrath'
seems to contradict the 6th seal, which mentions God's wrath....
and which is itself pre- or begin-trib.............
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
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#44
That is an odd phrase I never heard until.........this place.
I'm guessing you mean 7 bowls get poured out.........
so to be super-accurate, wouldn't that be end-trib or 'just-about-end-trib' Rapture?
Isn't that what you're saying?

Like I say, that particular idea or phrase 'post-trib = pre wrath'
seems to contradict the 6th seal, which mentions God's wrath....
and which is itself pre- or begin-trib.............

Couple of things.....

1. It is the people that are saying that God's wrath is here at the 6th seal
2. The annoncement of God's wrath as beng here in heaven is made at the 7th trump...
3. The wrath of God follows the 7 seals, 7 trumps and 7 thunders which is the great tribulation

At the 7th trump you have 3 things take place..

1. Jesus siezes control of all earthly kingdoms as LORD<--day of Lord commences
2. Jesus rewards saints, prophets and those who fear in the air as Christ<--Day of Christ commences
3. Jesus as God pours out his wrath on and unbelieving world<--Day of God commences

Jesus is Lord, Christ and God....
 
K

kellz

Guest
#45
I too feel what you're saying about living in America. I believe it's too easy to be deceived and we take too much for granted and we are surrounded by filth. On one hand it seems a great blessing living here where we can freely praise our Lord, eat to our hearts desire, clean water running through every home, abundance galor, but at times I think it may be the enemy working really hard to make things so easy and convienient to get us farther and farther from our true source of life, our only hope. I sense that judgement will come upon America and it is so important to read the bible like a starving man rummaging for food so that you will not be deceived. We must stay in close connection with our God, walking in the Spirit, allowing Him to show us His truth and give us discernment while we live amongst the enemy. We must put all our trust in Him. I get a little slighted about the end times sometimes, but my thought always ends up being: I fully trust my God. He has promised me eternal life and assured me that anything He allows me to go through will be for the ultimate good and that His grace will be sufficient to bring me through. I WILL spend eternity with Him in glory. Until the Lord decides to reveal something deeper within me that is the hope I stand on. Jesus shall return and I am His. He shall see me through to glory. Amen Praise be to God
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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#46
I am confused by this topic. I have read multiple biblical scriptures that indicate either might occur. Can someone please shed their thoughts on this and explain what makes them feel this way? My feeling could go either way...
on one hand, God is love... and would a God of love allow his followers and true believers to suffer a tribulation?
On the other hand we are already suffering and I feel god allows us pains to "bring us down a notch.." as Christians in America I feel I am somewhat a spoiled brat. Well, I dont know if that is the right term or not, but in this country Christianity is not widely encouraged and it is brushed off frequently. Because of this it is hard to keep a mindset on living a Christlike life and not giving in the all the sinful temptations currently out there. Make sense. My point is, I understand why difficult times are necessary, it brings me closer to My Father.
Please help me clear this confusion.
IMO, the answer to your question depends on what you refer to as the tribulation.

If one views the Tribulation as the outpouring of God's wrath; then the answer, IMO, is pre-trib.

If you include the ascendency and reign of the antichrist in the Tribulation; then, IMO, the rapture is mid trib, but pre-wrath.

IMO, the rapture occurs after the sixth seal is opened (Rev 6:12); and before the seventh seal is opened (Rev 8:1)

I believe that the sudden appearance of a great multitude Rev 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

indicates that the rapture has taken place.

I believe that the first five seals have already been opened; and that the sixth seal will be opened very soon.
 
F

flob

Guest
#47
1. It is the people that are saying that God's wrath is here at the 6th seal
This is part of the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to...
It's divinely included as.......a truism. They're right! They're right that He's an enthroned Lamb.
Hopefully some turn, to take care of God's people. But being regenerated...........becomes no
longer an option there.





2. The annoncement of God's wrath as beng here in heaven is made at the 7th trump...
I thought that said the end of His wrath. The consummation.
I'll check that





3. The wrath of God follows the 7 seals, 7 trumps and 7 thunders which is the great tribulation
The wrath of God...........as the 6th seal indicates............IS the 7th seal. For example God's judgment on Babylon----He
puts it into the mind of the beast to do His will toward her. 'Pay her back double,' etc, = wrath





At the 7th trump you have 3 things take place..
1. Jesus siezes control of all earthly kingdoms as LORD<--day of Lord commences
2. Jesus rewards saints, prophets and those who fear in the air as Christ<--Day of Christ commences
3. Jesus as God pours out his wrath on and unbelieving world<--Day of God commences
3 'different' days? Well I gotta see. I thought the kingdoms were declared His in ch 11. Which is the 7th seal.





Jesus is Lord, Christ and God....
The best for last
 
T

tanach

Guest
#48
The Pre Rapture teaching has been around only since the start of the 19th century. It is popular to many because lets face it
who wants to experience tribulation. That dosnt make it right. There is not oine scripture that says Christians will avoid tribulation, just the opposite Jesus said to his Disciples that in the world they would have tribulation. There are many other places where it mentions tribulation and hardship. The main confusion regarding this is that people confuse tribulation with the wrath of God. They are not the same. Christians will experience tribulation at the hands of Satan through the Antichrist. The wrath of God will be unleashed on the unbelieving world. The rapture actually happens at the same time that the sixth seal in revelation is opened and the wrath of God on the world begins through the Trumpet and Vial judgements.
 
Nov 14, 2012
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#49
There is a Great Tribulation coming and it is spoken of in Matthew 24. I believe Christians will go through this time because of Matthew 24:13. Now when this will this happen? Nobody knows and brothers and sisters please do not listen to ANYONE who gives you a date. Matthew 24:36.

Imo this is when God's light, through his elect,will shine its brightest in coming darkness
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
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#50
Guys I think I am going to start a thread concerning this subject but more importantly to understand the tribulation first so we can then understand the rapture
 
F

flob

Guest
#51
The Pre Rapture teaching has been around only since the start of the 19th century. It is popular to many because lets face it who wants to experience tribulation. That dosnt make it right.
What makes it right is 1) Scripture, and 2) that God has a need. Otherwise, there would only be an end-trib rapture






There is not one scripture that says Christians will avoid tribulation, just the opposite Jesus said to his Disciples that in the world they would have tribulation. There are many other places where it mentions tribulation and hardship.
To avoid The Tribulation at the end of this age, is conditional. Hence the Scripture called Luke 21:36. Likewise Rev 3:10. Likewise in Mt 24 about disciples being watchful to be taken rather than left behind. Likewise 1 Thes 4 which refers to those who remain behind.
Then there is the firstfruit harvest as compared with the end-of-summer harvest of believers, the wheat, in Rv 14.
That chapter more than clearly mentions both raptures. In Rev 12 the deceased overcomers are taken up. The manchild.
It is Catholicism's (and apparently a lot of others') mistake to assume the manchild is the individual Jesus. At least Catholicism is consistent in that inaccuracy, of interpreting the woman as the individual Mary. The others' label her a collective person:
Israel. To the contrary: both Woman and child are collective: the totality of Gods people through time.............and those
who overcome. 'Overcome' as used in Rev 2---3. Not to refer to clergy, not to refer to works of law, not to refer to better or stronger or more capable saints. But simply to those who deny their self. And who ripen. Like Paul realized he had, finished his course he referred to elsewhere---------finished it in 2 Timothy, gloriously.
In Rv 12: the pretrib resurrection and rapture of the manchild is of saints who include the Christian martyrs down through church history. (They also appear in Rv 6.) And include, as an overcomer I believe, the author of Revelation. Lol, though I don't think he saw himself. So the manchild is pretrib---but because they resurrect, they escaped no tribulation.
But the woman who flees the dragon, must refer in particular then to all the living saints left behind. And the Lord provides for her to escape. Some of 'her seed' does not---they are all the one beheaded etc during The Tribulation. Escape and protection are common themes in Scripture. Just as persecution is. Paul in one place escapes in a big basket. Peter is let out of jail miraculously. Both later die for the Lord. So it's not our place to tell the Lord who to 'escape' (as a transitive verb, lol) or when not, or who shouldn't and who should. It's up to Him. And in Lk 21:36 He commands, as part of 'watchfulness,' to beseech to escape The Tribulation and what..................just to escape to comfort? No: to stand before the Son of Man.
Exactly like those on the heavenly Mount Zion do, pretrib, in Rev 14:1-5






The main confusion regarding this is that people confuse tribulation with the wrath of God. They are not the same. Christians will experience tribulation at the hands of Satan through the Antichrist. The wrath of God will be unleashed on the unbelieving world. The rapture actually happens at the same time that the sixth seal in revelation is opened and the wrath of God on the world begins through the Trumpet and Vial judgements
That rapture, then, is pretrib. (There is also an endtrib one, 1 Thes 4, Rv 14:14-16, Rv 12 of the woman---implied because God protects and cultivates her on earth for 1260 days.) In any case, there's not a big need to 'worry' about confusing tribulation and wrath. Because both are going on simultaneously. For example, the two witnesses in Rv 11 'dish it out' also, as well as receive suffering. And God (as with the woman and those beheaded for the testimony of Jesus) is not confused. He's is well able to protect his own from wrath in the midst of Satan's tribulation, and well able to dish out wrath at the same time Satan's is wrathful too (Rv 12--13).
 
R

Rosesrock

Guest
#52
Oh good, multiple choice....

D. I'm going with when he calls me up. I just hope I'm not holding coffee or Driving a car.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#53
Ok friends. I normally don’t get involved in these arguments but I want to say something and I am going to say it LOL.

We have many people on this website snarling at anything Hebrew without understanding what the Hebrew way is/was. In the old days the son and his helper (or his father) went to the bride’s house and discussed the transaction for the bride. If the “price” was settled the groom left the future bride with presents and sometimes the helper stayed. When people asked the groom when he is getting married he said that only his father know the time. Normally a maximum time was 2 years for the groom to prepare the bride’s house. When the groom returned he didn’t set foot inside the bride’s house but he came with a large shout and he the bride came running towards him. He would then take her away to the place he prepared. After the marriage ceremony the bride and groom entered the bride chamber for seven days and after that they were married and presented as bride and groom.

Let us read this now taking into consideration Yeshua and His time on earth;

In the old days Yeshua and his helper (Holy Spirit) went to the bride’s house (earth) and discussed the transaction for the bride (cross). If the “price” was settled the groom left the future bride with presents (gifts of the Spirit) and sometimes the helper stayed. When people asked the groom when he is getting married he said that only his father know the time (Matthew 24:36). Normally a maximum time was 2 years for the groom to prepare the bride’s house (+-2,000 years after Yeshua died on the cross. Remember one day is like a thousand years). When the groom returned he didn’t set foot inside the bride’s house ( 1 Thes 4:17) but he came with a large shout and he the bride came running towards him. He (Yeshua) will then take us away to the place he prepared for us in heaven. He would then take her (John 14:3) away to the place he prepared. After the marriage ceremony the bride and groom entered the bride chamber for seven days (seven year tribulation on earth) and after that they were married (the second coming of Yeshua when we return with Him to earth to judge) and presented as bride and groom.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
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#54
Arrogant? My friend you do realize that the tribulation is going to be the worst time this earth has ever seen right? Ppl are going to want to die and kill themselves because of how bad it's going to be but they won't be able to.
Precisely and that tribulation has been happening for the Jews for the last 2000 years as Jesus declared it would in Matt 24..
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#55
Ok friends. I normally don’t get involved in these arguments but I want to say something and I am going to say it LOL.

We have many people on this website snarling at anything Hebrew without understanding what the Hebrew way is/was. In the old days the son and his helper (or his father) went to the bride’s house and discussed the transaction for the bride. If the “price” was settled the groom left the future bride with presents and sometimes the helper stayed. When people asked the groom when he is getting married he said that only his father know the time. Normally a maximum time was 2 years for the groom to prepare the bride’s house. When the groom returned he didn’t set foot inside the bride’s house but he came with a large shout and he the bride came running towards him. He would then take her away to the place he prepared. After the marriage ceremony the bride and groom entered the bride chamber for seven days and after that they were married and presented as bride and groom.

Let us read this now taking into consideration Yeshua and His time on earth;

In the old days Yeshua and his helper (Holy Spirit) went to the bride’s house (earth) and discussed the transaction for the bride (cross). If the “price” was settled the groom left the future bride with presents (gifts of the Spirit) and sometimes the helper stayed. When people asked the groom when he is getting married he said that only his father know the time (Matthew 24:36). Normally a maximum time was 2 years for the groom to prepare the bride’s house (+-2,000 years after Yeshua died on the cross. Remember one day is like a thousand years). When the groom returned he didn’t set foot inside the bride’s house ( 1 Thes 4:17) but he came with a large shout and he the bride came running towards him. He (Yeshua) will then take us away to the place he prepared for us in heaven. He would then take her (John 14:3) away to the place he prepared. After the marriage ceremony the bride and groom entered the bride chamber for seven days (seven year tribulation on earth) and after that they were married (the second coming of Yeshua when we return with Him to earth to judge) and presented as bride and groom.
LOL how we play with Scripture. There is absolutely no justification for making years into thousands of years or days into years just because of Ezekiel or any other Scripture.

Furthermore we do not know what betrothal and marriage customs pertained in the days of Jesus. Your descriptions are of post Christian Judaism. Thus the whole basis of your theory is Judaism (what Christ rejected), not Christianity.

There will not be a Great Tribulation period. That is past history. Nor are there any grounds for thinking that the Rapture will take place prior to the end of time. It is all pure speculation.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#56
That is an odd phrase I never heard until.........this place.
I'm guessing you mean 7 bowls get poured out.........
so to be super-accurate, wouldn't that be end-trib or 'just-about-end-trib' Rapture?
Isn't that what you're saying?

Like I say, that particular idea or phrase 'post-trib = pre wrath'
seems to contradict the 6th seal, which mentions God's wrath....
and which is itself pre- or begin-trib.............
It is quite clear that without manipulation the sixth seal IS the end of time and the final judgment. Taking it literally leaves us with no alternative. The seventh seal is then a more detailed description of what will occur during the first six seals.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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#57
To avoid The Tribulation at the end of this age, is conditional.
No one alive at the time will avoid the tribulation at the end of the age if it occurs in their area. It will be a long process affecting different peoples at different times. For in the world we will have tribulation, and in the last days perilous times will come.

Hence the Scripture called Luke 21:36.
The escaping in that verse does not refer to disappearing from the earth. It refers to escaping from being weighed down with the cares and problems of this world.

Likewise Rev 3:10.
This simply indicates that that church in that particular city would avoid the general persecution, possibly because of a favourable administration. It has in mind 1st century AD. It was a church to which John was writing.

Likewise in Mt 24 about disciples being watchful to be taken rather than left behind.
But that refers to being ready for Christ's coming and the accompanying rapture, rather than being left behind to face God's final judgment.

Likewise 1 Thes 4 which refers to those who remain behind.
Actually it does not refer to anyone remaining behind. You are simply inventing it. Those who are not taken will immediately face final judgment.

Then there is the firstfruit harvest as compared with the end-of-summer harvest of believers, the wheat, in Rv 14.
What an imagination you have LOL. The first reaping is the rapture and resurrection of the saints. The second is the final judgment on unbelievers. Both described in terms of harvest. As with the other verses at the end of time Christ gathers His own and visits the rest with judgment.

That chapter more than clearly mentions both raptures
Nonsense.

In Rev 12 the deceased overcomers are taken up. The manchild.
The manchild is primarily Christ, but because we are in Him it secondarily includes His church.

It is Catholicism's (and apparently a lot of others') mistake to assume the manchild is the individual Jesus.
you mean it is your mistake not to recognise the obvious in pursuit of your outlandish theories? The manchild was recognised as Christ long before there was a Roman Catholic church. In the context it is crystal clear unless you have a theory to expound.

At least Catholicism is consistent in that inaccuracy, of interpreting the woman as the individual Mary. The others' label her a collective person: Israel.
The woman is clearly identified as Israel by the sun moon and twelve stars..

To the contrary: both Woman and child are collective.
the woman is collective as Israel was often depicted as a woman. The manchild is both individual - Christ - and collective in including His church. But in Rev 12 the emphasis is on the manchild representing Christ.

.
In Rv 12: the pretrib resurrection and rapture of the manchild is of saints who include the Christian martyrs down through church history.
Nonsense. the first resurrection is that of Christ. Believers participate in it when they become His (Rev 20.4-5). We live and reign with Christ (Eph 2.5-6; Col 3.1-3; Rev 20.4-5). It has nothing to do with the rapture.


( So the manchild is pretrib---but because they resurrect, they escaped no tribulation.
as the manchild is Christ He is pre everything. it is not talking about a pre-tribrapture.

But the woman who flees the dragon, must refer in particular then to all the living saints left behind
.

yes it is the early Jewish church which was left behind when Christ rose from the dead as described in Acts 1-12..

And the Lord provides for her to escape.
As He did.

Some of 'her seed' does not---they are all the one beheaded etc during The Tribulation. Escape and protection are common themes in Scripture. Just as persecution is.
LOL you are too hypnotised by left behind theology. The remainder of her seed were the church in the dispersion.

Paul in one place escapes in a big basket. Peter is let out of jail miraculously. Both later die for the Lord. So it's not our place to tell the Lord who to 'escape' (as a transitive verb, lol) or when not, or who shouldn't and who should. It's up to Him. And in Lk 21:36 He commands, as part of 'watchfulness,' to beseech to escape The Tribulation and what..................just to escape to comfort? No: to stand before the Son of Man.
As we have seen Luke 21 refers to escaping from the clutches of the world, not escaping from the earth. The latter is all in your imagination. When Christ comes we will all stand before the Son of Man.

Exactly like those on the heavenly Mount Zion do, pretrib, in Rev 14:1-5
Nonsense that is the church at the end of time who are raptured to be with her Lord having fulfilled her ministry.
 
S

sassylady

Guest
#58
Tribulation and the great tribulation are two different things. God's people are never intended to suffer His wrath. We will not be here when that happens; the church is no longer here after the third chapter of Revelation. The word rapture is not in the Bible but catching away is the meaning of the Greek in Thessalonians.

Jesus said to watch and pray that you might escape the things to come. Unfortunately I do not have my Bible here at work with me to find the scriptures.

When the rapture happens, we will meet Jesus in the air. That is not His second return. His second return is when He puts His feet down on the Mount of Olives. The wedding supper is just before that, and we obviously would have to be there to have a wedding supper.

God has provided an escape for His people. Noah and his family experienced one when they entered the ark.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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#59
Tribulation and the great tribulation are two different things.
Great tribulation was to come on the Jews from 70 AD to the present day (Matt 24). Great tribulation was to come on the church from John's time onwards (rev 7.14) but it was already prefigured in rev 2.20-22 .

The church was to experience tribulation continually which would intensify at certain times. The church in the Middle East is experiencing great tribulation now. Scripturally there is no period spcifically called the great tribulation.


God's people are never intended to suffer His wrath.
and we won't. but we continually live in a world where His wrath is continually poured out (Rom 1.18 ff)

We will not be here when that happens;
Not if we are dead. Otherwise we certainly will be.

the church is no longer here after the third chapter of Revelation.
what an astonishing statement. sorry but you are deceived. the church is present right through to the great white throne. you have no good grounds for saying otherwise.


The word rapture is not in the Bible but catching away is the meaning of the Greek in Thessalonians.
true and it will occur at the end of time.

Jesus said to watch and pray that you might escape the things to come. Unfortunately I do not have my Bible here at work with me to find the scriptures.
but only escape under God's protection. Not by being pulled out when we are needed most.
When the rapture happens, we will meet Jesus in the air. That is not His second return.
of course it is. we have no reason to think otherwise. you have been reading too many unscriptural books.

His second return is when He puts His feet down on the Mount of Olives.
He did that 2000 years ago, He will not do it again.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#60
The church will endure persecution but the church is not appointed to wrath. God is holding back His wrath as long as the church is here on the earth.

Jacobs trouble is a time of judgment upon Israel not the church. It would seem that Paul was comforting believers that even though they were experiencing great persecution they would not endure great tribulation as in Jacobs trouble.

For the cause of Christ
Roger