Pre-tribulation raptiure or post-tribulation rapture?

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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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"The same way" would mean visible to the human eye and feet on the ground, the way it was when he ascended.

Yes, Jesus does descend to earth at the rapture at the end of time, accompanied by all those caught away to meet him in the air.
They beheld Him go looking UP. there were no feet on the ground.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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<sigh>

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,


So, while the devil is chained up in the bottomless pit for a 1000 years (the millennium), which begins to take place when Christ returns, the earth is still here, and there are people on it.

Or else it would not say that when the devil is loosed again, he comes to deceive the nations once again and surround the camp of the saints.

etc, etc., etc.
SIGH. what you fail too see is that Rev 20 is a new vision and briefly as a resume covers what has previously been revealed. The king of the angels in the Abyss (9.1-11), the Beast in the Abyss (Rev 17.8) and now Satan in the Abyss. All are released from the Abyss for a little time to cause havoc in the world. And then Christ comes to judge.


Meanwhile in our own age over a long indeterminate period of time (the 'thousand' years') Christ will reign, and the SOULS of the saints in heaven will rule with Him.


Furthermore, Jesus says this:

Rev 2:26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations,
Rev 2:27 and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.
actually He gives them authority over the nations to 'shepherd them with an iron rod' which is likened to breaking pots in pieces. Do you know what a shepherd uses an iron rod for? It is to destroy those who come against his sheep. He oversees his sheep with a wooden rod. This is thus a picture of partaking in once-for-all judgment, not of ruling for a period of time.

Do you know the original source of the quote? 'He will BREAK THEM with an iron rod, and smash them in pieces like a potter's vessel' (Psal. 2.9) The meaning is clear.
 
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They beheld Him go looking UP. there were no feet on the ground.
Ya' think they didn't see him rise from the ground?

You are too intelligent for such nonsense. . .or are you just gaming the Scriptures?

Neither is a good thing.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Ya' think they didn't see him rise from the ground?

You are too intelligent for such nonsense. . .or are you just gaming the Scriptures?

Neither is a good thing.
Oh come on. you are old enough to know better. The Apostles had watched Jesus rise through the clouds and were still gazing upwards. the angels merely told them that He would return in the clouds 'as they had seen Him go'. They did not mean that He would reproduce every action that he had taken. You are pressing things too far for the sake of your theory. And that is certainly not a good thing.
 
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flob

Guest
They beheld Him go looking UP. there were no feet on the ground.
The disciples in Acts 1:11-12 didn't see Jesus feet leave the ground, but they did see Him ascend the rest of the way they could see?
And that's important for your argument that Jesus will never physically touch the earth (or the new earth) again.
Which, in turn, is important to you because.............you, or you think He, despise(s) the earth? Is glad to be done with it?
Could you not still hold on to your interpretation of Jesus and His people forever being in heaven.........and at the same time allow that He touches the earth once or twice in the future? I certainly don't see it in Scripture. But I also am perplexed why it is seemingly essential for you that He never step on earth again.







He reigns over the earth NOW and the SOULS of His saints live and reign with Him having partaken with Him of His resurrection (the first resurrection). The Souls of those who have gone before are living and reigning with Christ NOW. We also are living and reigning with Him (Eph 2.5-6).
No doubt He reigns now. But He doesn't (yet) reign visibly to the nations.
Then in regard to the 'souls' of His saints reigning 'now', you don't mean yourself and/or me?
What part or totality of you (or me) do you experience or understand is reigning, in Ephesians 2:5-6 now?
In regard to what you label 'the first resurrection' here (a phrase in Rev 20:5), when you have time would you be kind to
interpret or share how 2 Tim 2:18 correlates to it? (To help me understand.)
Hymenaeus and Philetus, who concerning the truth have misaimed, saying that the resurrection has already taken place...
Thanks





Once Christ comes again this earth will be totally destroyed.
Comes again.............not on the earth, according to you........but near to it?
I find in Scripture, instead, that He with His co-king saints, will reign on this old earth, restoring it
in large measure, and with regenerated Israel, shepherding the nations that were 'sheep' in Matthew 25,
for 1000 years, until He lets Satan out of the pit to test (and winnow) the nations one last time.
Before He then destroys not only this earth, but also the heavens. And creates a new heavens and new earth.
Followingly. In Revelation 21.

You are those who have remained with Me throughout My trials. And I appoint to you, even as My Father has appointed to Me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom; and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel
Luke 22:28-30.
And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the restoration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel
Mt 19:28.
When the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory. And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world
25:31-34.
You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for You were slain and have purchased for God by Your blood men out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth
Rv 5:10.
And the second came, saying, Your mina, Master, has made five minas. And he said to this one as well, And you, be over five cities...
Lk 19:18-19
 
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SIGH. what you fail too see is that Rev 20 is a new vision and briefly as a resume covers what has previously been revealed. The king of the angels in the Abyss (9.1-11), the Beast in the Abyss (Rev 17.8) and now Satan in the Abyss. All are released from the Abyss for a little time to cause havoc in the world. And then Christ comes to judge.


Meanwhile in our own age over a long indeterminate period of time (the 'thousand' years') Christ will reign, and the SOULS of the saints in heaven will rule with Him.




actually He gives them authority over the nations to 'shepherd them with an iron rod' which is likened to breaking pots in pieces. Do you know what a shepherd uses an iron rod for? It is to destroy those who come against his sheep. He oversees his sheep with a wooden rod. This is thus a picture of partaking in once-for-all judgment, not of ruling for a period of time.

Do you know the original source of the quote? 'He will BREAK THEM with an iron rod, and smash them in pieces like a potter's vessel' (Psal. 2.9) The meaning is clear.
Your ramblings are out of your own thinking, and you are twisting the scriptures.

This will be my last post in this thread since I know you cannot be taught anything and will not learn, but the Christians ruling over the nations is not about shepherding sheep. They are promoted to rule with Christ over the nations, which common sense tells you is at a time that has not happened yet. FUTURE.

Look around. Do some research. When in the course of human events have the saints ruled over the nations? NEVER.

And if upon Christ's return He gets rid of this planet, then there can be no fulfillment of the prophecy.

Your bizarre thinking about the devil in the abyss is not in keeping with common sense reading. The devil has NEVER been locked up and continues to be the prince of the power of the air, even now.

But when Christ returns and sets up his Kingdom on earth with the saints being put in charge over various cities, the devil will be locked up for a millennium while the saints rule on earth, and then the devil will be released again for a little while.
 
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flob

Guest
[His] bizarre thinking about the devil in the abyss is not in keeping with common sense reading. The devil has NEVER been locked up and continues to be the prince of the power of the air, even now.
Augustine, when he was senile or sillily influenced by various opposers or other teachers, changed his interpretation of Rev 20 and the Millenium, to come up with the odd hyper-spiritualization of it into meaning this age of grace. When Satan 'is bound,' for example by prayer, to restore the earth through the gospel. Catholicism may still urge this teaching too. I agree we shouldn't be or become fleshly about the Millenium (or about prophecy). But that doesn't mean the Millenium is fleshly......or that prophecy is! Lord Jesus
 
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Galahad

Guest
Your ramblings are out of your own thinking, and you are twisting the scriptures.

This will be my last post in this thread since I know you cannot be taught anything and will not learn, but the Christians ruling over the nations is not about shepherding sheep. They are promoted to rule with Christ over the nations, which common sense tells you is at a time that has not happened yet. FUTURE.

Look around. Do some research. When in the course of human events have the saints ruled over the nations? NEVER.

And if upon Christ's return He gets rid of this planet, then there can be no fulfillment of the prophecy.

Your bizarre thinking about the devil in the abyss is not in keeping with common sense reading. The devil has NEVER been locked up and continues to be the prince of the power of the air, even now.

But when Christ returns and sets up his Kingdom on earth with the saints being put in charge over various cities, the devil will be locked up for a millennium while the saints rule on earth, and then the devil will be released again for a little while.
You really are an arrogant weasel. Thought maybe your response to my post in another thread was just a misunderstanding on my part. Nope. You really think you know it all.

Do you realize that God is still in charge? That's right. You are not on the throne. But you are just one little varmint, whiskers and claws and tail.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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The disciples in Acts 1:11-12 didn't see Jesus feet leave the ground, but they did see Him ascend the rest of the way they could see?
now you sound as though you are only 15. use some sense. don't be childish.

And that's important for your argument that Jesus will never physically touch the earth (or the new earth) again.
Which, in turn, is important to you because.............you, or you think He, despise(s) the earth? Is glad to be done with it?
The Scripture makes plain that He will not land His feet on this earth again. As to His motive. Ask Him :)

Could you not still hold on to your interpretation of Jesus and His people forever being in heaven.........and at the same time allow that He touches the earth once or twice in the future? I certainly don't see it in Scripture. But I also am perplexed why it is seemingly essential for you that He never step on earth again.
It is essential to me because Scripture says it. You see I don't speculate and build up worldly ideas, I believe the Scriptures. And I believe Jesus when He said MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD. That's clear enough for anyone (except speculators).



No doubt He reigns now. But He doesn't (yet) reign visibly to the nations.
yes He has taken up the throne of David in heaven and is 'ruler of the kings of the earth' (Rev 1.5)

Then in regard to the 'souls' of His saints reigning 'now', you don't mean yourself and/or me?
What part or totality of you (or me) do you experience or understand is reigning, in Ephesians 2:5-6 now?
The saints who have 'fallen asleep in Christ' now reign with Him in Heaven (Rev 20.4-5). We reign with Him in the spiritual realm, even though we are on earth (Eph 2.5-6). As Rev 5.10 said 'we shall reign on the earth'.

My spirit is reigning with Him now in the heavenlies :) I live out his reign in my body (e.g. Rom 5.17; 6.2-11).


In regard to what you label 'the first resurrection' here (a phrase in Rev 20:5), when you have time would you be kind to
interpret or share how 2 Tim 2:18 correlates to it? (To help me understand.)
Hymenaeus and Philetus, who concerning the truth have misaimed, saying that the resurrection has already taken place...
Thanks
No problem. H & P were talking about the general resurrection of the body (the second resurrection) as having taken place, the future resurrection.

But even you will not deny that the Apostles taught that Jesus had risen from the dead as a 'past event' and that we and the saints who have fallen asleep rose with Him, sharing in His resurrection, the first resurrection (Rom 6.2-11;Col 1.1-3; Eph 2.5-6).

Or are you not aware that you have risen with Christ?





Comes again.............not on the earth, according to you........but near to it?
try not to be simplistic. the atmosphere is part of the earth. or hadn't you noticed? Indeed that is how His second coming is described, as His being above the earth in the atmosphere while His angels gather together His elect.

I find in Scripture, instead, that He with His co-king saints, will reign on this old earth
you will not find one single reference to this in the New Testament, Even Rev 20 says NOTHING about reigning on earth.

, restoring it in large measure, and with regenerated Israel, shepherding the nations that were 'sheep' in Matthew 25,
for 1000 years,
LOL some king. According to you he rules over them for 1000 years with a rod of iron, then ruthlessly and cynically, having taught them peace, releases on them hordes of savages to rape, pillage and destroy only saving some of them at the last moment. And you really think Jesus Christ is like that. ?? God help us all if He is.

until He lets Satan out of the pit to test (and winnow) the nations one last time.
He did this in Rev 9.1-11.

Before He then destroys not only this earth, but also the heavens.
so according to you it took him another 1000 years before he realised he was sick of this earth? meanwhile He had forgotten that His kingdom was not of this world, and that flesh and blood would not inherit the kingdom of heaven???.

You are those who have remained with Me throughout My trials. And I appoint to you, even as My Father has appointed to Me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom; and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel
Luke 22:28-30.
this is now in process of fulfilment. The Apostles ate and drank with Him at the Lord's Table (as we do) and 'sat on thrones' ruling His people, first on earth then in heaven. and we continue their rule, and have done for the last 2000 years.

And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the restoration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel
Mt 19:28.
the restoration took place at Pentecost. see also above for the remainder

When the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory. And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world
25:31-34.
don't forget to add on the last bit. 'and these shall go into eternal punishment and the righteous to eternal life.' Surely even you cannot be bare faced enough to claim that a failing earthly kingdom is the equivalent of eternal life? or maybe you can LOL LOL.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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This will be my last post in this thread since I know you cannot be taught anything and will not learn, but the Christians ruling over the nations is not about shepherding sheep. They are promoted to rule with Christ over the nations, which common sense tells you is at a time that has not happened yet. FUTURE.
maybe 'common sense', which is totally worldly, is wrong? The Scriptures make clear that we ARE reigning over the earth with Christ (Rom 5.17; Ephe 2.5-6; Col 3.1-3). His rule is in process. And His enemies are slowly being brought under His feet. we are shepherding sheep NOW, and when Christ comes again will smash His enemies with a rod of iron.

L
ook around. Do some research. When in the course of human events have the saints ruled over the nations? NEVER.
we rule over the nations now in Christ :)

And if upon Christ's return He gets rid of this planet, then there can be no fulfillment of the prophecy.
there will be no future on earth after His coming.

Your bizarre thinking about the devil in the abyss is not in keeping with common sense reading. The devil has NEVER been locked up and continues to be the prince of the power of the air, even now.
Hmm so Jesus was deceiving us when He said that He had 'bound the Strong Man'? (Matt 12.28-29 and parallels).

And John was deceiving us when he spoke of the king of the angels as being in the Abyss NOW? (Rev 9.1-11)
 
Jan 19, 2013
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try not to be simplistic. the atmosphere is part of the earth. or hadn't you noticed? Indeed that is how His second coming is described, as His being above the earth in the atmosphere while His angels gather together His elect.
Does this preclude his angels gathering together the elect who have raptured over all the earth and their descending with Jesus to the final judgment of the condemned in which they will participate?
 
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flob

Guest
use some sense. don't be childish.
The disciples in Acts 1:11-12 didn't see Jesus feet leave the ground, but they did see Him ascend the rest of the way they could see?
If you want, Valiant, you may say simply 'yes' or 'no.'
Sorry, I didn't mean that to be childish
 
Jan 19, 2013
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The disciples in Acts 1:11-12 didn't see Jesus feet leave the ground, but they did see Him ascend the rest of the way they could see?
This is silly.

So from where do you think he ascended. . . he was with them on the ground.
 
L

LT

Guest
I see the time of transformation of the saints, and the time of His Return, being a single event.
As He Comes, we go up to meet Him, we are transformed, and all together escort Him the rest of the way.
Could I be mistaken? Sure. Which is why it doesn't really matter, from a teaching standpoint.
As long as we are teaching that He really is Coming, and soon,
And that Today is the day of Salvation,
And that salvation is by Faith in Christ through God's Grace,
And that tomorrow is not guaranteed,
And that all sins earn Judgement,
And that Judgement comes without warning, except to those in Christ,
Then we are teaching rightly.
 
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flob

Guest
Scripture makes plain that He will not land His feet on this earth again.
Scripture like Matthew 26:29?
...This product of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in the kingdom of My Father.
Zechariah 14:2-16
I'll gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, and the houses plundered, and the women ravished...Then Jehovah will go forth and fight against those nations...And His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives...Jehovah my God will come, and all the saints with Him...And Jehovah will be King over all the earth...and there will be no more curse, for Jerusalem will dwell securely...And everyone left from all the nations that went forth against Jerusalem will go from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts.
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am. So they picked up stones to throw at Him.
Acts 1:9-12
While they were looking on, He was lifted up, and a cloud took Him away from their sight. And while they were looking intently into heaven as He went, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them, Who also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you beheld Him going into heaven. Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet.
Daniel 2:34-35
A stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the image at its feet of iron and clay and crushed them...And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth...
Hebrews 1:6
He brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth.
Revelation 10:1-5
And I saw another strong Angel coming down out of heaven, clothed with a cloud; and the rainbow was upon His head, and His face was like the sun, and His feet like pillars of fire; and He had in His hand a little opened scroll. And He placed His right foot on the sea and the left on the land...And the Angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land...
5:10
Made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth.
20:7-9
Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog...And they went up upon the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down out of heaven and devoured them
21:1-3, 10, 24-26; 22:2-3
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth...And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven...Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they will be His peoples and God Himself will be with them...The holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven...And the kings of the earth bring their glory into it. And its gates shall by no means be shut by day...And they will bring the glory and honor of the nations into it...And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations...And the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it.
22:20
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus






As to His motive. Ask Him :)
I think you're saying Scripture doesn't reveal any motive of God for your interpretation's view.

As to Christ's motive to return to earth: earth is what He made for man and made man from. And man is made to contain Him.
2 Corinthians 4:7
We have this treasure in earthen vessels.
Revelation 21:2
I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Isaiah 65:25
The wolf and the lamb will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, and dust will be the serpent's food; they will not harm nor destroy in all My holy mountain, says Jehovah.





I believe Jesus when He said MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD. That's clear enough for anyone (except speculators).
So then when He states in Scripture that
The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever;
He means clearly
MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD ?
Rev 11;15; Jn 18:36.
Is that also what He means when He says
Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself
?
Thanks
 
L

LT

Guest
I am confused as to what application flob is making.
Which of the eschatological views are you asserting? There are really only 5 or 6.
Nothing is new in the world... except for dispensationalism, ofc. Lol, jk.

But seriously, what are you seeing in these verses that I am blind to?
Stringing a series of individual verses together is never a good way of making a point. It just makes you lose context of all of them.
 
L

LT

Guest
Being "lifted up" is the image of the serpent in the desert connected to Christ on the Cross, and is not the image of the Ascention... though the two are linked, the passage is not referring to Glory, but Grave. Being lifted up as the Holy Sacrifice, and the image of Salvation to a dying world: bitten by the serpents, the poison of which is sin unto Death.
It is about the phrase "look and live" from the book of Numbers.

Context and Spirit. Both are needed here.
 
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flob

Guest
I am confused as to what application flob is making.
Which of the eschatological views are you asserting? There are really only 5 or 6.
Nothing is new in the world... except for dispensationalism, ofc. Lol, jk.
But seriously, what are you seeing in these verses that I am blind to?
Stringing a series of individual verses together is never a good way of making a point. It just makes you lose context of all of them.
I think the Bible is much better at making its points than I.
Which is why I 'string together verses' that share a common point.
My post #135's Scriptures are in response to the bubbles above each grouping. The bubbles contain someone else's words or claim or interpretation. For example, the first bubble in 135 is the claim by another that......well, you can read it for yourself:
Scripture makes plain that [Jesus Christ] will not land His feet on this earth again.
So my collection immediately below it prove, in this case, that it is false.
Thanks!
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Does this preclude his angels gathering together the elect who have raptured over all the earth and their descending with Jesus to the final judgment of the condemned in which they will participate?
Well I don't tell God how to go about His business, but even Rev 19 doesn't give the impression of Him coming to earth. It is nowhere taught in the New Testament. Where the Scripture is silent, I am silent :) I suspect the final events will take place far more quickly than we can imagine.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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The disciples in Acts 1:11-12 didn't see Jesus feet leave the ground, but they did see Him ascend the rest of the way they could see?
If you want, Valiant, you may say simply 'yes' or 'no.'
Sorry, I didn't mean that to be childish
Well actually they probably didn't. I doubt if they were looking at His feet. They simply saw Him rise. But that is not the point. The angels were not saying 'every detail of what you saw from start to finish will be reversed.' They were saying 'you saw Him physically go in the clouds, you will see Him physically return in the clouds.' And that is what we will see if we are still here.