Pre-tribulation raptiure or post-tribulation rapture?

[flob]

Well actually [the disciples in Acts 1 at the mount of Ascension] probably didn't [see His feet]. I doubt if they were looking at His feet. They simply saw Him rise. But that is not the point. The angels were not saying 'every detail of what you saw from start to finish will be reversed.' They were saying 'you saw Him physically go in the clouds, you will see Him physically return in the clouds.' And that is what we will see if we are still here.

Lol.......'every detail..' You mean like what He was wearing? There's not that many details about rising.
You don't even need to see to know...........to guess (rightly) that Jesus was standing, then no longer standing.
If His abdomen went up, I'm willing to surmise His feet rose also. He left earth, not stopping midway..............but out of their sight. Yet you seem to feel Scripture explicitly reveals that Jesus won't.............stand or be on earth ever again.
I'm familiar with the way-common mythology of Christians (and unbelievers) about heaven and mansions and golden streets and pearly gates (there) and maybe ones' favorite ski slopes and golf courses there.......but you carry it in another, additionally unscriptural and funny, way. Jesus Christ 'can't' re-touch earth. It's almost like Red Rover or something. Once you're tagged, or 'un-tagged' in this case, you can't go back again............
But apparently in this game you can go and hover nearby, for a little bit

 

[Elin]

But the natural body IS a physical body as you say. And it contrasts with
the spiritual body which is not natural and is not physical.

Paul says that Jesus will transform (give a new form, not eliminate) our lowly (vile, sinful) bodies so that they will be like his glorious body (Ph 3:21).

You do not understand Paul's analogies of plants, humans and inanimate creation in 1Co 15:35-41.
He shows there that God organizes physical material differently to accomplish his purposes.
In the resurrection of the dead, God will take a perishable, sinful, weak (natural) body characterized by sin, and make it an imperishable, glorious, powerful, sinless body--a physical one similar to the present natural body organizationally, but radically different in that it will be imperishable, glorious, sinless, and powerful, fit to live eternally with God in the new earth, the home of righteousness. There is continuity, but there is also change in the resurrection body.

We see that resurrection body in Lk 24:36-43, where Jesus clearly told them he was not a spirit (ghost), but was flesh and bones (blood is omitted).
That Jesus' resurrection body is organizationally different from his pre-resurrection body as Paul explains in 1Co 15:35-41 is seen in its new properties; e.g., passing through solid matter (Jn 21:26).
Perhaps it will have the property of de-materializing and materializing (Lk 24:36).
But Scripture shows that a physical body is involved.

And we have reason to suspect that the physical properties of the new earth, the home of righteousness, will also be different.

 

[valiant]

Paul says that Jesus will transform (give a new form, not eliminate) our lowly (vile, sinful) bodies so that they will be like his glorious body (Ph 3:21).

You do not understand Paul's analogies of plants, humans and inanimate creation in 1Co 15:35-41.
He shows there that God organizes physical material differently to accomplish his purposes.
In the resurrection of the dead, God will take a perishable, sinful, weak (natural) body characterized by sin, and make it an imperishable, glorious, powerful, sinless body--a physical one similar to the present natural body organizationally, but radically different in that it will be imperishable, glorious, sinless, and powerful, fit to live eternally with God in the new earth, the home of righteousness. There is continuity, but there is also change in the resurrection body.

We see that resurrection body in Lk 24:36-43, where Jesus clearly told them he was not a spirit (ghost), but was flesh and bones (blood is omitted).
That Jesus' resurrection body is organizationally different from his pre-resurrection body as Paul explains in 1Co 15:35-41 is seen in its new properties; e.g., passing through solid matter (Jn 21:26).
Perhaps it will have the property of de-materializing and materializing (Lk 24:36).
But Scripture shows that a physical body is involved.

And we have reason to suspect that the physical properties of the new earth, the home of righteousness, will also be different.

LOL a physical body cannot dematerialise you've been watching too much star trek.

 

[valiant]

And we have reason to suspect that the physical properties of the new earth, the home of righteousness, will also be different.

The new earth will not have physical properties. It will be designed for Father and Son to dwell in for ever. It will be a spiritual world. That is why we can be incorruptible and unchanging.

 

[Elin]

The new earth will not have physical properties. It will be designed for Father and Son to dwell in for ever. It
will be a spiritual world.

Non-responsive.

Yes, and "spiritual" does not mean immaterial.
The NT reveals in Php 3:21; 1Co 15:3-41; Jn 21:26; Lk 24:46-33 that it is physical.

That is why we can be incorruptible and unchanging.

The resurrected body of Jesus is incorruptible and unchanging.

Corruptible/decay applies only to matter, not to spirit.

Incorruptible/freedom from decay applies only to matter, not to spirit.

Spirits are immortal and incapable of decay.

 

[valiant]

Right. . .the natural body cannot, but the spiritual resurrection body can.


Your notions of matter are too earth bound.

if you change the definition of matter then you cease to have an argument. It is no longer what we know of as matter. Matter IS earth bound. It is material, and decaying. If you make matter incorruptible it ceases to be matter. Thus it ceases to be physical. You really can't have it both ways. What is physical deteriorates.

If the resurrection body dematerialises, and is incorruptible, then by definition it is not physical. As I have shown you Paul says it is a spiritual body which is heavenly, (in the same way as spiritual hosts of wickedness are not physical but are in heavenly places). You are simply inventing new meanings for words and then pretending you are saying the same thing. Jesus' short term resurrection body which had the purpose of proving that it was Him is not a pattern for our resurrection body..

 

[Elin]

Paul says that Jesus will transform (give a new form, not eliminate) our lowly (vile, sinful) bodies so that they will be like his glorious body (Ph 3:21).

You do not understand Paul's analogies of plants, humans and inanimate creation in 1Co 15:35-41.
He shows there that God organizes physical material differently to accomplish his purposes.
In the resurrection of the dead, God will take a perishable, sinful, weak (natural) body characterized by sin, and make it an imperishable, glorious, powerful, sinless body--a physical one similar to the present natural body organizationally, but radically different in that it will be imperishable, glorious, sinless, and powerful, fit to live eternally with God in the new earth, the home of righteousness. There is continuity, but there is also change in the resurrection body.

We see that resurrection body in Lk 24:36-43, where Jesus clearly told them he was not a spirit (ghost), but was flesh and bones (blood is omitted).
That Jesus' resurrection body is organizationally different from his pre-resurrection body as Paul explains in 1Co 15:35-41 is seen in its new properties; e.g., passing through solid matter (Jn 21:26).
Perhaps it will have the property of de-materializing and materializing (Lk 24:36).
But Scripture shows that a physical body is involved.

And we have reason to suspect that the physical properties of the new earth, the home of righteousness, will also be different.

LOL a physical body cannot dematerialise

Right. . .the natural body cannot, but the spiritual resurrection body can if God so ordains.
God ordained that it pass through solid matter (Jn 21:26).

you've been watching too much star trek.

Your notions of the physical properties of matter are too earth bound
and ignore the accounts of the completely different and new ones of Jesus' resurrection body.

You gloss over 1Co 15:35-41, not laying hold of Paul's import stated in Php 3:21.

 

[Elin]

if you change the definition of matter then you cease to have an argument. It is no longer what we know of as matter. Matter IS earth bound. It is material, and decaying.
If you make matter incorruptible it ceases to be matter.

Nope. . .God created it, gave it its properties, and certainly can alter and add to them.

And that is what Paul is showing in 1Co 15:35-41; Php 3:21, physical bodies organizationally similar but radically different, as we see in Jesus' resurrection body (Jn 21:26; Lk 24:46-36-43).

 

[valiant]

Right. . .the natural body cannot, but the spiritual resurrection body can if God so ordains.
God ordained that it pass through solid matter (Jn 21:26).

But then it is neither physical nor material !! What is physical and material cannot pass through solid matter.

Your notions of the physical properties of matter are too earth bound
and ignore the accounts of the completely different and new ones of Jesus' resurrection body.

physical IS earthbound. Matter is earthbound. As I say you are simply using words in a way in which they cannot be used. Jesus' body was not made of matter, nor was it physical. It dematerialised and passed through walls. It was only made to appear physical for a specific purpose. But if you want to dream, dream on.
.

You gloss over 1Co 15:35-41, not laying hold of Paul's import stated in Php 3:21.

I showed you quite clearly what 1 Cor 15 meant by a spiritual heavenly body. Phil 3.21 is precisely the same kind of body, glorified and spiritual. And that is my last word on the matter. If our citizenship is in heaven we will be heavenly and spiritual If you want to imagine yourself in an illogical world do so.

 

[Elin]

But then it is neither physical nor material !! What is physical and material cannot pass through solid matter.

Previously addressed. . .

 

[waynebo59]

both'll happen, to wrap up this age.
I mean the first rapture is the reason He Does begin the end.
His Bride is what Christ has been for the whole time, on the positive side,
Gen 1:26; Rv 12:5; 14:1-5;
and The 3 1/2 year Tribulation ripens the wheat left behind,
14:14-16; 12:14, 17

Pre-wrath here. That the only promise we have.1st these 1:10 and 5:9.
Romans 5:9

 

[waynebo59]

Pre-wrath here. That the only promise we have.1st these 1:10 and 5:9.
Romans 5:9

Forgot the beginning of the wrath is clear, Rev 6:17.
Afterwords you can also see in chapter 7 everything changes,the church is now removed.

 

[valiant]

Forgot the beginning of the wrath is clear, Rev 6:17.
Afterwords you can also see in chapter 7 everything changes,the church is now removed.

chapter 6 takes us to the second coming

chapter 7 is a new vision

shows the churches state from John onwards

 

[flob]

Forgot the beginning of the wrath is clear, Rev 6:17.
Afterwords you can also see in chapter 7 everything changes,the church is now removed.

I'd say the overcoming part of the church is 'removed,' is taken away. (Both to satisfy the Lord,
and to deal with Satan in the heavenlies.) But not 'the church is now removed.' And you're correct,
that everything changes. Even such a little glimpse as Rv 16:15, Behold I come as a thief. Blessed is he
who watches and keeps his garments that he may not walk naked and they see his shame----
shows the left-behind church .................... is left behind. Not to mention the big sightings of her in
Rv 12 and 14 and 1 Thes 4

 

[valiant]

I'd say the overcoming part of the church is 'removed,' is taken away. (Both to satisfy the Lord,
and to deal with Satan in the heavenlies.) But not 'the church is now removed.' And you're correct,
that everything changes. Even such a little glimpse as Rv 16:15, Behold I come as a thief. Blessed is he
who watches and keeps his garments that he may not walk naked and they see his shame----
shows the left-behind church .................... is left behind. Not to mention the big sightings of her in
Rv 12 and 14 and 1 Thes 4

The church is not even partially 'removed' at any stage in Revelation until Christ's second coming. It is seen a present on earth throughout Revelation.

 

[tanach]

Actually it does say in Zechariah that the Lords feet will alight on the mount of Olives and the mountain will split in two.

 

[flob]

The church is not even partially 'removed' at any stage in Revelation until Christ's second coming. It is seen a present on earth throughout Revelation.

Satan's not cast out of heaven, in Revelation 12, until the Lord has His Bride, the thing He's been working for since creating man, in at least a substantial amount. He Wants to defeat His enemy through man. He said (not me) 'I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against her.' That is the whole purpose of an overcomers' rapture.
Additionally-------the first rapture---------as well as the second------is all part of His Return in a broad sense. Although the second transpires very immediately before Jehovah (Jesus) sets foot back on earth (Zech 14; Ac 1)

 

[valiant]

Satan's not cast out of heaven, in Revelation 12, until the Lord has His Bride, the thing He's been working for since creating man, in at least a substantial amount. He Wants to defeat His enemy through man. He said (not me) 'I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against her.' That is the whole purpose of an overcomers' rapture.
Additionally-------the first rapture---------as well as the second------is all part of His Return in a broad sense. Although the second transpires very immediately before Jehovah (Jesus) sets foot back on earth (Zech 14; Ac 1)

Satan is cast out of Heaven as a consequence of the ministry, cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ as Revelation 12 makes clear. It took place at the first coming of Jesus Christ. As Jesus Himself said. 'I beheld Satan as lightning fall from Heaven.' There are no good grounds for calling that 'prophetic'. It was related to the ability of the disciples to cast out evil spirits.

He is building His church now on Himself, and the gates of Hell have not prevailed against it.

The rapture is the final removing of God's people to everlasting glory. By then Satan has long been defeated. There would be no purpose in Jesus setting foot on earth again, nor does the New Testament assume that He will. The earth simply awaits final judgment.

 

[flob]

Satan is cast out of Heaven as a consequence of the ministry, cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ as Revelation 12 makes clear. It took place at the first coming of Jesus Christ. As Jesus Himself said. 'I beheld Satan as lightning fall from Heaven.' There are no good grounds for calling that 'prophetic'. It was related to the ability of the disciples to cast out evil spirits.

I didn't call that prophetic. I call Revelation 12 prophetic. Not a figurative retelling of the Gospels, for which there is and would be no use. The Lord tells John to write what John's seen (chapter 1), the things which are (the 7 churches, chapters 2 and 3), and the things which are about to take place after these things, the rest of the book.

Satan currently, as also Paul mentions in Ephesians, has his evil rulership in the air. There will be a time when Satan has no place to be in but the Lake of Fire. Before that, he will be bound to the abyss for 1000 years (with one, deliberate, brief release). Before that, he will be cast to the earth, as Rv 12--13 make clear. And be unhappy with that

He is building His church now on Himself, and the gates of Hell have not prevailed against it.

That.................dovetails with Him completing the building in Himself.............and the gates of Hades not only
not prevailing, but also themselves being ruled-over, per His original intention in Genesis 1:26-27............
in the future as well

The rapture is the final removing of God's people to everlasting glory. By then Satan has long been defeated. There would be no purpose in Jesus setting foot on earth again, nor does the New Testament assume that He will. The earth simply awaits final judgment.

That's absurd. Since Jesus Christ both explicitly steps on earth in Zechariah 14 (and all the other Scriptures cited to you) to rule and reign and restore and enjoy for 1000 years. Further, then, creating a New earth to inhabit. In which Righteousness,
the New Jerusalem, dwells......................with the nations. The nations restored to an innocent, clean state like Adam's before Genesis 3. Ruled still by God in Christ in person in the flesh, and as the Spirit within His multitudinous sons; forever on earth

 

[valiant]

I didn't call that prophetic. I call Revelation 12 prophetic. Not a figurative retelling of the Gospels, for which there is and would be no use.

What an extraordinary statement. The greatest victory in the history of the world, as Jesus defeated Satan, and you say it would be of no use to mention it. Satan was defeated at the cross not by some airy fairy battle in the heavens. And the victory is central to Revelation.

The Lord tells John to write what John's seen (chapter 1), the things which are (the 7 churches, chapters 2 and 3), and the things which are about to take place after these things, the rest of the book.

yes the history of the church commencing in 1st century AD, but with flashbacks which reveal Satan's efforts and Christ's victory over them

Satan currently, as also Paul mentions in Ephesians, has his evil rulership in the air.

He is the prince of the power of the air. But He is not himself ruling there for he has been bound by Christ (Matt 12.28-29). It is his minions who are active in 'the air' (Eph 6.10 ff.). He rules them from the Abyss from which 9.1-11 reveals him as finally released.

There will be a time when Satan has no place to be in but the Lake of Fire. Before that, he will be bound to the abyss for 1000 years (with one, deliberate, brief release).

which is where he is at present,

Before that, he will be cast to the earth, as Rv 12--13 make clear. And be unhappy with that

He was cast out of heaven through the ministry, cross and resurrection of Jesus as a consequence of which he and his minions were defeated (Eph 1.19 ff; Col 2.15). .
'

That's absurd. Since Jesus Christ both explicitly steps on earth in Zechariah 14 (and all the other Scriptures cited to you) to rule and reign and restore and enjoy for 1000 years.

Nonsense. Zech 14 refers to His first coming, the spreading of the Gospel, the raising to heaven of Jerusalem and the worship of God's people in this age. We are IN the 'thousand years' (long indeterminate period of time) and the SOULs of His saints are living and reigning with Him NOW (Rev 20.4-5).

Further, then, creating a New earth to inhabit. In which Righteousness, the New Jerusalem, dwells......................with the nations.

The New Jerusalem IS the people of God (the bride of Christ). They alone will be with Him, the believers from all nations.

The nations restored to an innocent, clean state like Adam's before Genesis 3. Ruled still by God in Christ in person in the flesh,

It is sad how so many of you are tied to the flesh. Christ will not rule in the flesh, He will rule as the glorious One in a new spiritual, heavenly heavens and earth along with His glorified people.

and as the Spirit within His multitudinous sons; forever on earth

heaven and earth will pass away. the heavens and the earth will flee for God's presence (Rev 20), the heavens and earth will have been destroyed by fire (2 Pet 3). There will be no earth forever.

It is sad to me how greatly you dishonour the cross and what Jesus accomplished there. It was THERE that the victory was won. All else is secondary.