Predestination Makes Void Personal Responsibility

[Jason0047]

There is no merit in Osas, .

You took the words right out of mouth.

There is huge responsibility.

No there isnt. When the dust settles and all is said and done, the OSAS Proponent who believes they can sin and still be saved will still be rewarded by being allowed to enter Heaven for doing evil in God's name. For the OSAS Proponent today sort of reminds me of a cartoon cat who has a canary in it's mouth trying to act all innocent of it's intention to want to eat the canary in front of it's master.

 

[Kerry]

I guess we will see.

 

[Nick01]

I have dealt with them.

vs 23 has nothing to do with individuals. so do not see your point. or did you get the verse wrong

Who said anything about individuals. You were talking about it only concerning Israel. Clearing, it is not.

vs 30 says that a group of people called gentiles and a group of people called jews.

chapter 10 is talking about they (plural) the nation of Israel)

chapter 11 is talking about two people groups/.

Gentiles. who were grafted in

Israel. partly blind. our enemy concerning the gospel. but beloved according to the promise, nothing there about individual people.

so I am not sure why so you say I am required to deal with those verses, when those verses support what I said.

I don't know what you're arguing. Is your point that Gentiles, because they are grafted in to Israel, are Israel? All I'm arguing is that you can't just wave away what Paul says in chapter 9, because it is obviously concerning not just Israel, but Gentiles as well. I don't see how anything you have just posted deals with that, unless you clarify.

no, my issue is to how it is applied.

Is it applied based on foreknowledge (God knew before hand) or is it applied just because God chose to save me, and reject my brother. so he allowed me to have faith, but did not allow him to (even if he wanted to)

I don't see how there's that much difference between what you describe as foreknowledge, and what you describe as the alternative. The difference is one of degree - you seem to suggest either God predestines from eternity, or God predestines five seconds before a person is saved. Either way, you seem to say that God is the chief agent of salvation, and without his intervention a person is unable to be saved unless God wills it. Is that right?

 

[Grandpa]

My initial thought was, so what?

Isn't that the whole point in the power of salvation? Despite our personal responsibility of being good people, and failing, God sent His Son to be a propitiation for us.

Or don't you know what your personal responsibility deserves?

Predestination makes void personal responsibility... well I certainly hope so.

Psalm 32:1-2
[SUP]1[/SUP]Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

 

[tribesman]

...If one is predestined from the beginning to either eternal life or eternal damnation........then personal responsibility can not be a factor to be judged........after all, for what reason would man have to "give account?"

Noone has a responsibility to contribute to their own salvation, in any way shape or form. It is not God's fault that anyone gets damned in the end, it is the fault of the unbeliever. God is not to be blamed for that. But God alone is to be thanked for each and every sinner He saves out of His tender love and mercies, through His beloved Son Jesus Christ, Amen.

 

[wordhelpsme]

How can a person be guilty if he is predestined? How can he be punished if it is his life is foreordained?
He does not love God on his own but is forced to by destiny......

 

[p_rehbein]

Originally Posted by p_rehbein

...If one is predestined from the beginning to either eternal life or eternal damnation........then personal responsibility can not be a factor to be judged........after all, for what reason would man have to "give account?"

TRIBESMAN: Noone has a responsibility to contribute to their own salvation, in any way shape or form. It is not God's fault that anyone gets damned in the end, it is the fault of the unbeliever. God is not to be blamed for that. But God alone is to be thanked for each and every sinner He saves out of His tender love and mercies, through His beloved Son Jesus Christ, Amen.

Your comment is self-contradictory.....................IF God predestined a person to eternal damnation, then how exactly is it not God's fault/choice? If a person HAS NO CHOICE in believing in and accepting Jesus Christ, but MUST count on being LUCKY enough to be one of the ones predestined to eternal life, the how is that not God's fault/choice?

Yes, we should sing God's praises from the highest mountains for His loving Grace................but that doesn't have anything to do with the discussion of predestination..............

 

[Ukorin]

How can a person be guilty if he is predestined? How can he be punished if it is his life is foreordained?
He does not love God on his own but is forced to by destiny......

No one is predestined for hell. Predestination only works on way, and that is up.

All of us chose to go to hell. We all sinned. We all chose hell over heaven by not being the perfect image of the Father.

No one has ever chosen heaven over hell, except Christ.

Predestination is God choosing heaven for some, even though they already chose hell. He is taking a remnant, and making the better choice for them.

From our view, it looks like we choose God. From His Word, we find that He chose us.

 

[Ukorin]

Originally Posted by p_rehbein

...If one is predestined from the beginning to either eternal life or eternal damnation........then personal responsibility can not be a factor to be judged........after all, for what reason would man have to "give account?"

TRIBESMAN: Noone has a responsibility to contribute to their own salvation, in any way shape or form. It is not God's fault that anyone gets damned in the end, it is the fault of the unbeliever. God is not to be blamed for that. But God alone is to be thanked for each and every sinner He saves out of His tender love and mercies, through His beloved Son Jesus Christ, Amen.

Your comment is self-contradictory.....................IF God predestined a person to eternal damnation, then how exactly is it not God's fault/choice? If a person HAS NO CHOICE in believing in and accepting Jesus Christ, but MUST count on being LUCKY enough to be one of the ones predestined to eternal life, the how is that not God's fault/choice?

Yes, we should sing God's praises from the highest mountains for His loving Grace................but that doesn't have anything to do with the discussion of predestination..............

No one is predestined for hell. That is a choice that all people make. All choose to go to hell, because all sin.
The punishment for sin is physical death, and spiritual death (the 2nd death, which is hell)

Predestination is that God takes some of the 'sticks from the fire' and uses them for another purpose.

 

[crossnote]

Matthew 12:31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 .) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 .) Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 .) O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 .) A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 .) But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 .) For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

If one is predestined from the beginning to either eternal life or eternal damnation........then personal responsibility can not be a factor to be judged........after all, for what reason would man have to "give account?"

That's like saying if free will was true then God's planning of anything is impossible.
Again, why can't there be both? Oh yeah, that would not compute with our finite minds although Scripture reveals both predestination and man's will are at work simultaneously.

 

[p_rehbein]

QUOTED:

That's like saying if free will was true then God's planning of anything is impossible.
Again, why can't there be both? Oh yeah, that would not compute with our finite minds although Scripture reveals both predestination and man's will are at work simultaneously.

END QUOTED>.....
Actually, no, it's not the same.......for it is directly because of the Sovereign power of God that He gave mankind the gift of free will...........it has always been a part of His Master Plan. Free will never impedes on the sovereignty of God, regardless of what Calvinists preach...........

There IS both.............the mistake is when Calvinists do not recognize "foreknowing" preceding "predestination." As well as their flat out denial of man having free will of ANY sort.

 

[Kerry]

Even the angels have freewill. They choose or chose and 1/3 sided with Satan.

 

[Ukorin]

QUOTED:

That's like saying if free will was true then God's planning of anything is impossible.
Again, why can't there be both? Oh yeah, that would not compute with our finite minds although Scripture reveals both predestination and man's will are at work simultaneously.

END QUOTED>.....
Actually, no, it's not the same.......for it is directly because of the Sovereign power of God that He gave mankind the gift of free will...........it has always been a part of His Master Plan. Free will never impedes on the sovereignty of God, regardless of what Calvinists preach...........

There IS both.............the mistake is when Calvinists do not recognize "foreknowing" preceding "predestination." As well as their flat out denial of man having free will of ANY sort.

Foreknowledge is not the same as foresight.
The word 'foreknowledge' is RELATIONAL, which is beyond just foresight. He KNEW us. Not just what we were going to do, but having love for us as individuals.

The the word is used similarly to how Adam "knew" Eve. He didn't just know about her, but had a relationship.

"Before the foundations of the world were laid, I knew you."

 

[starfield]

Even the angels have freewill. They choose or chose and 1/3 sided with Satan.

But the original sin didn't affect them. Mankind has been marred with sin as a result of Adam's fall, thus unregenerate act freely according to his sinful nature.

 

[crossnote]

QUOTED:

That's like saying if free will was true then God's planning of anything is impossible.
Again, why can't there be both? Oh yeah, that would not compute with our finite minds although Scripture reveals both predestination and man's will are at work simultaneously.

END QUOTED>.....
Actually, no, it's not the same.......for it is directly because of the Sovereign power of God that He gave mankind the gift of free will...........it has always been a part of His Master Plan. Free will never impedes on the sovereignty of God, regardless of what Calvinists preach...........

There IS both.............the mistake is when Calvinists do not recognize "foreknowing" preceding "predestination." As well as their flat out denial of man having free will of ANY sort.

So God is passive in His foreknowledge, i.e. simply a 'knower beforehand'? Then after he has foreseen what we would do, He goes to town predestinating??

 

[Kerry]

But the original sin didn't affect them. Mankind has been marred with sin as a result of Adam's fall, thus unregenerate act freely according to his sinful nature.

Correct orginal sin did not effect them as the have no grace or mercy. Their judgment is no matter what. They told Jesus have you come to judge us before our time? Jesus cast them into the pigs which killed themselves.

 

[Kerry]

So God is passive in His foreknowledge, i.e. simply a 'knower beforehand'? Then after he has foreseen what we would do, He goes to town predestinating??

He is Alpha and Omega the beginning and the end. He knows what you are going to do ten seconds from now and ten years from now. All the time holding out His hand.

 

[crossnote]

So God is passive in His foreknowledge, i.e. simply a 'knower beforehand'? Then after he has foreseen what we would do, He goes to town predestinating??

He is Alpha and Omega the beginning and the end. He knows what you are going to do ten seconds from now and ten years from now. All the time holding out His hand.

So how does predestination interact with foreknowledge?

 

[Atwood]

Foreknowledge is not the same as foresight.
The word 'foreknowledge' is RELATIONAL, which is beyond just foresight. He KNEW us. Not just what we were going to do, but having love for us as individuals.

The the word is used similarly to how Adam "knew" Eve. He didn't just know about her, but had a relationship.

"Before the foundations of the world were laid, I knew you."

Is it legitimate to define foreknow in Greek by the word know in Hebrew? Does anyone has a quote where foreknowledge has a figurative meaning like know? Could you define understand by some figurative meaning of "stand"?
To this day I have never found a similar figurative meaning (outside scripture) for foreknow, as there is for know.

Still if God foreknew certain special people, that must not mean merely His omniscience, because in the sense of omniscience, God foreknew all men, the elect and the non-elect.

 

[Ukorin]

Is it legitimate to define foreknow in Greek by the word know in Hebrew? Does anyone has a quote where foreknowledge has a figurative meaning like know? Could you define understand by some figurative meaning of "stand"?
To this day I have never found a similar figurative meaning (outside scripture) for foreknow, as there is for know.

Still if God foreknew certain special people, that must not mean merely His omniscience, because in the sense of omniscience, God foreknew all men, the elect and the non-elect.

Koine Greek, not Hebrew.
Proginosko
Pro - before
Ginosko - know
Strong's Greek: 1097. γινώσκω (ginóskó) -- to come to know, recognize, perceive
( use the link, and check it's usages)
It is intimate, not simply foresight.
I'm not interpreting allegory. Words have definitions and connotations.