Prophets Amongst Us
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I'm puzzled with you. I'm used to reading your posts with a great deal of accuracy, & now I read this.
Paul never implied no such thing. The context reveals plainly that these things will not be done away with UNTIL we see Jesus face to face. ONLY THEN will the gifts no longer be needed.
Then there's the two witnesses of Revelation that are prophets.
There's absolutely no biblical evidence that prophecy has ended.
Let somebody say grace has been done away with, & multitudes would be on their case like white on rice.
Yet the truth of the gifts are just as valid as grace.
Paul teaches the Corinthians of prophecy as if the future church would still be ministering this gift.
Plus, I believe Philip's daughters outlived John.
Paul never implied no such thing. The context reveals plainly that these things will not be done away with UNTIL we see Jesus face to face. ONLY THEN will the gifts no longer be needed.
Then there's the two witnesses of Revelation that are prophets.
There's absolutely no biblical evidence that prophecy has ended.
Let somebody say grace has been done away with, & multitudes would be on their case like white on rice.
Yet the truth of the gifts are just as valid as grace.
Paul teaches the Corinthians of prophecy as if the future church would still be ministering this gift.
Plus, I believe Philip's daughters outlived John.
This is frequently how that passage in 1 Corinthians 13 is interpreted. But if your read it carefully it does not say "when He who is perfect is come" but "when THAT which is perfect is come". The Greek word for perfect can mean either perfect, or mature, or complete, and the logical interpretation would be "complete". That ties in with the cessation of prophecy, tongues, and (supernatural) knowledge, all given by the direct action of the Holy Spirit on those having these gifts. If the Bible is complete (which we all agree to) then is there any further need for prophecy? The whole tenor or Revelation is that these prophecies give us a preview of God's plans, judgments, and interventions until the New Heavens and the New Earth are established.
Yes that is true. They are both witnesses and prophets, and at least one of them is Elijah, while the other is more than likely Moses. But these men were ALREADY prophets and represent the Law and the Prophets. They met with Jesus at His transfiguration, and they are sent as witnesses primarily to Israel during the reign of the Antichrist.
Well the best evidence is Revelation 22:18,19: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
The best way to understand this -- in light of all that has been revealed in Revelation -- is that there cannot be any more prophecies added to the Bible after this book. Furthermore, if any man would claim to be a prophet, we would all have to take his words as EQUAL TO Holy Writ. Are you prepared to do that? Joseph Smith and Mohammad both claimed to have received Divine revelations through the angel Gabriel. Do Christians accept their words as being directly from God?
The New Testament was written in Greek without any verse, paragraph or chapter divisions. But if we take verses 11-13 of 1 Cor 13 as a separate topic, then the confusion of mistaking Scripture for Christ is done away with.
Verses 8-10 -- the perfection or completion of Scripture.
Verses 11-13 -- the perfection and completion of the saint. This corresponds to 1 John 3:1-3:
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Most interpreters treat the entire passage (8-13) as one unit, but this chapter has THREE separate themes:
1. The supremacy of the greatest spiritual gift -- agape love (charity) -- verses 1-7
2. The completion and perfection of Scripture.
3. The completion and perfection of the the saint.
Verses 8-10 -- the perfection or completion of Scripture.
Verses 11-13 -- the perfection and completion of the saint. This corresponds to 1 John 3:1-3:
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Most interpreters treat the entire passage (8-13) as one unit, but this chapter has THREE separate themes:
1. The supremacy of the greatest spiritual gift -- agape love (charity) -- verses 1-7
2. The completion and perfection of Scripture.
3. The completion and perfection of the the saint.
I've spoken to you about this before because I think you are the one who is in error here. Will cease is future tense. I asked you if you have been given a date? Do you have a date when prophecies WILL cease?
You actually gave me an answer. 90AD. Something about early so-called "Church Fathers". Ridiculous. You have no right to stifle the work of The Holy Spirit by imposing dates and ages (where NONE were expressed in scripture)
BTW, I do not myself claim to be a prophet.
You actually gave me an answer. 90AD. Something about early so-called "Church Fathers". Ridiculous. You have no right to stifle the work of The Holy Spirit by imposing dates and ages (where NONE were expressed in scripture)
BTW, I do not myself claim to be a prophet.
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sorry but that is a false statement
Pentecostal churches are Pentecostal
the gifts are for all as is the infilling of the Holy Spirit
I am not nor ever have been Pentecostal and I did not receive the infilling of the Holy Spirit in a Pentecostal church...try the basement of my parent's home when I was a teenager and no one praying over me but just me asking
you do not have to be Pentecostal and I am kind of alarmed you would make a statement like that...surely you know otherwise?
Pentecostal is a denom just like any other. It is not THE denom where it all happens and where you have to go to receive from God
just thought I would make that definition in case anyone thinks they have to be Pentecostal...you certainly do NOT have to be ANY denom to receive from God
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exactly
there is still foretelling...done it myself but I am not prophet...but God can use anyone He wants at any time...there is also word of knowledge which people get confused with prophecy...probably was that in my case...accurate though
I don't like labels anyway. we should all just be humble before God and stop bragging about whatever we think He is doing...quiet goes a long way but far too many make so much noise they would not hear God if He shouted (sorry guess I'm preaching now LOL!...just making notes)
HUGE difference between that and creating new revelations
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not so plainguy
OT prophets were of the 'thus saith the Lord variety' and the false prophets were basically those who declared a false peace...much like today although we have the 'apocalypse a minute variety also with the start of each new year bringing horrible disasters often to the US' I guess they may be on target one day just by sheer numbers of prophecies
have you studied the NT definition? let the prophets speak two or three? but I would agree with speak when he says this gift is also to bring clarity to the word, but again, and I am prob boring some by now, I will add there are plenty of very strange so called interpretations of scripture given by so called bumper crop prophets who have been to prophet school so of course they must know what they are doing
a prophet of old is not what a NT prophet is generally speaking as defined by the NT itself
OT prophets were of the 'thus saith the Lord variety' and the false prophets were basically those who declared a false peace...much like today although we have the 'apocalypse a minute variety also with the start of each new year bringing horrible disasters often to the US' I guess they may be on target one day just by sheer numbers of prophecies
have you studied the NT definition? let the prophets speak two or three? but I would agree with speak when he says this gift is also to bring clarity to the word, but again, and I am prob boring some by now, I will add there are plenty of very strange so called interpretations of scripture given by so called bumper crop prophets who have been to prophet school so of course they must know what they are doing
a prophet of old is not what a NT prophet is generally speaking as defined by the NT itself
.This canard comes up frequently in the discussion of modern-day prophecy. Where in Scripture does it say that every prophecy is equal to Scripture? Simple: it doesn't! In fact, there is counter-evidence, because the prophecies spoken by Philip's daughters are not recorded in Scripture. It seems to me that the only people who think modern prophecies should be added to Scripture are the people who argue against modern prophecy occurring at all. In other words, who is making the claim against which you argue? Let's have real people and real references, not generalities, please.
Frankly, I don't think your reasoning is sound here. Many of the prophecies that I have heard or read are similar in kind to those given by Agabus. There is absolutely no need for them to be considered "equal to holy writ". Your comparison to Joseph Smith and Mohammed is flawed, because they claimed that their words were equal to Scripture. Anyone who claims that should be disregarded as a nut-job. I have one question for you: WHY do you think we would have to take a modern prophet's words as equal to Scripture?
This is circular reasoning. You're saying that verses 8-10 refer to the completion of Scripture, on the basis of your belief that there are three separate themes, one of which is the completion of Scripture. Therefore your assertion still does not stand.
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Thank you for sharing that.
I received the Holy Spirit when I was alone too about 30 years ago after praying and seeking him. I didn't ask for a language specifically but that is what he gave me. He went on to touch several of my friends who were believers over the next few days and weeks. Not all spoke in tongues but some did. We had prayer groups & Bible studies in our homes. We were attending different churches at the time because we lived in different neighbourhoods. Mine was a simple non-denominational church. My closest friends went to a bigger Evangelical church. None of the churches forbade the speaking in tongues but there were no disruptions from people during services.
I received the Holy Spirit when I was alone too about 30 years ago after praying and seeking him. I didn't ask for a language specifically but that is what he gave me. He went on to touch several of my friends who were believers over the next few days and weeks. Not all spoke in tongues but some did. We had prayer groups & Bible studies in our homes. We were attending different churches at the time because we lived in different neighbourhoods. Mine was a simple non-denominational church. My closest friends went to a bigger Evangelical church. None of the churches forbade the speaking in tongues but there were no disruptions from people during services.
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Were both the OT and NT prophets (yes, there were a handful of NT prophets until the completion of scripture) chosen by God and trusted with His divinely inspired message ? I think we would agree that they were. If one believes that the need for prophets remain today (according to scripture), does it not also stand to reason that we still have apostles with us as well ? I can't see how the two can be separated if one is still with us as many claim. And this begs the question : Who are they ? Where are they ? ... and are they doing those things that the apostles and prophets of old did ? Are people being healed by a passing of even their shadow ? Are the names of today's apostles going to be added to names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb on the gates of God's heavenly city ? Much or all of this disagreement stems from two different understandings of what the "until that which is perfect has come". Proponents of prophets today claim this refers to Jesus Christ Himself. Others, like myself, are convinced that this refers to the completion of God's word given us ...i.e... the NT. Perfect, complete, mature ... fully realized. Until this was so, there remained a need for prophets ... or God's chosen for giving us His Word. Another glaring and obvious discrepancy between those of old and today is the manner and depth of which they suffered for their faith. We all know how the twelve apostles suffered and were martyred for their faith, perhaps with the exception of John, whose task it was given him to write the Book of Revelation. But that aside, there is no comparison worthy of mention between them and today's so-called chosen ones. None are beheaded or crucified upside down. Or boiled in oil .. or whatever the fate was that met them. Only the "prestige" of the title remains ... and most living a life of luxury. Personally, I find it appalling that any of us would even consider ourselves in the same league as those of old, both prophets and apostles alike. We are told that tongues will cease ... and where there are prophecies, they will fail, or cease as well. Many say that this occurs only when Christ returns. But my question is, if faith, hope and love remain after those prior do cease, and we know that this is so, where will faith and hope be required after we find ourselves in the presence of our Lord ? Both our faith and hope will be fully realized .. and rewarded. Where would they now come into play ? The answer is ... they wouldn't. But love, which is the greatest of these three shall always be. Having said all of this, I fully agree with you on the NAR and other like-minded organizations. And although we will have to agree to disagree on some things, I remain fond of you .
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dodge
does it matter if there were 6 prophets mentionned or 607 mentionned in the NT?
the reason we have the major and minor prophets in the OT is because that WAS the main way God spoke to His people
we each have the Holy Spirit indwelling us now and we no longer need an intermediary in that sense PLUS we have the Bible which, if actually believed and followed, will ensure the truth of what it says
anyone trying to get around that, will simply start twisting the word, adding to it or subtracting from it
love? you know, the way some people act (don't mean you) around here with the name calling etc...while basically trying to lay waste to what anyone else states, is anything but love
love is waxing cold...Jesus people would know those who are His by His love, but nowadays, it seems that has been changed to people will know those who are His by their perfect doctrine and desire to spew actual hatred at those who disagree with it
(again not you here...fine to disagree, but discuss it...not accuse and shoot Bible arrows (verses that people think prove them right)
I will have to read your response later cause we are almost out the door here...but this is a quick response in the meantime