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Hm, i wonder that before pentecostal doctrine arouse, there was no speaking of tongues in the main christian denominations, except in some sects. Since 1906 christianity is divided in pentecostals and non pentecostals, (meanwhile charismatic doctrines came along).
My conclusion is, if it is the work of the holy spirit, than all non pentecostals/charismatics are wrong. So am I!
My conclusion is, if it is the work of the holy spirit, than all non pentecostals/charismatics are wrong. So am I!
You are shure, that you see the above mentioned bible references in the right meaning? The reason, that it is revealed in the scripture can also be to show the inwolved people that the Gospel from Jesus Christ is not only for jews (acts 2), but also for gentiles (acts 10) the disciples of John the baptist (acts 19) and for the samaritians (acts 8). Nothing more! In the whole churchhistory you cant find this doctrine from be baptised with the Holy Spirit and as initial evidence speaking in tongues. So you really think all others during the churchhistory till today are wrong and have not received the Holy Spirit?
Then why the Lord came so late to reveal this important truth to his children in the year 1906?
Then why the Lord came so late to reveal this important truth to his children in the year 1906?
It is not the thing that we are not counting with the Lords gift in certain situations to glorify him and to be a witness for him through healings ore a special help ore wisdom, with talking in tounges i dont know.
But what I can not believe is, that the Lord reveal this doctrine which we call now pentecostal ore charismatic ore renewing movement. A doctrine about baptising with the Holy Spirit with the sign to speak in tounges.
1. Where this is written? I cant find this doctrine taught in the bible and also not in the churchhistory.
2. It was not taught in the main denominations till 1906, means this that God did not wantet this in the time before 1906?
3. That means from beginning God makes a different between believers?, because Paul himself said: that not all are getting the gift of speaking in tongues. 1. Cor. 12,30
"Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"
From the context you can see, that the answer is: no!
I have personell nothing against pentecostals ore charismatics, but simply nobody could answer my questions i have.
The argumentation with acts 2, 10 and 19 convices me not. Because these events can have also another reason, simply as witness as the context explains.
Many here in CC belongs to pentecostals ore charismatics and I have the impression that you simply ignore this kind of questions.
But what I can not believe is, that the Lord reveal this doctrine which we call now pentecostal ore charismatic ore renewing movement. A doctrine about baptising with the Holy Spirit with the sign to speak in tounges.
1. Where this is written? I cant find this doctrine taught in the bible and also not in the churchhistory.
2. It was not taught in the main denominations till 1906, means this that God did not wantet this in the time before 1906?
3. That means from beginning God makes a different between believers?, because Paul himself said: that not all are getting the gift of speaking in tongues. 1. Cor. 12,30
"Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"
From the context you can see, that the answer is: no!
I have personell nothing against pentecostals ore charismatics, but simply nobody could answer my questions i have.
The argumentation with acts 2, 10 and 19 convices me not. Because these events can have also another reason, simply as witness as the context explains.
Many here in CC belongs to pentecostals ore charismatics and I have the impression that you simply ignore this kind of questions.
I would think false pride as an outward evidence a person has the Holy Spirit is the reason that people try and bring new prophecies called a tongue.
Tongues were a work of God and not that of or after men. Men speak in their own language. God does the interpreting.
When Peter spoke Hebrew many nations received the revelation from God. Three thousand souls were saved by the hearing of Christ faith. Not one was after Peter whom God used as a mouth piece. That would be a Catholic tradition to replace Christ with Peter.
Seeing God is no longer bring any new revelations, seeing we have the whole and not a part, tongues as one of the manners that He did speak from heaven have ceased.
Tongues were a work of God and not that of or after men. Men speak in their own language. God does the interpreting.
When Peter spoke Hebrew many nations received the revelation from God. Three thousand souls were saved by the hearing of Christ faith. Not one was after Peter whom God used as a mouth piece. That would be a Catholic tradition to replace Christ with Peter.
Seeing God is no longer bring any new revelations, seeing we have the whole and not a part, tongues as one of the manners that He did speak from heaven have ceased.
When Adam and Eve were created and as man's numbers grew they all spoke a single spiritual language. It was one of the few things man kept after the fall, but it was lost at the tower of Babel. When the Messiah/Christ returns to this world to restore all that was lost (and thus restoring perfection), one of the things that will be restored is that singular spiritual language. At that point spiritual language will cease to be known as a tongue, as English/French/German/whatever would then be the outsider language or tongue.
Tongues won't really cease, they will cease to be known as tongues because at that point (the restoration of perfection) they will be our native language.
Tongues won't really cease, they will cease to be known as tongues because at that point (the restoration of perfection) they will be our native language.
1. There are numerous references throughout the New Testament about the role of tongues , and their evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit. These scriptures have been presented ad nauseam in this and many other threads on the subject. If you'd really like I can present them to you again, but if you overlooked them before would my parroting them again serve any purpose?
2. As presented in scripture, the purpose of tongues/prophecy is to edify the believer/church. And you know how satan loves to monkey with God's people and cut them off from what God has for them. That I believe is why they fell out of general practice for some time. But then God says He will pour out His Spirit anew in the end. Perhaps their resurgence in 1906 (if we have to put a date on it) marks the beginning of the end?
3. It is interesting that Paul said he wished we all would speak in tongues, but that not all would. It is clearly evident that many in the body refuse to take part in the gifts God has provided us with. I have to believe that since Paul said he wished we all would that it is possible for all of us to do it, but that Paul knew there would be those who will refuse to take it up.
Not to be harsh, but I find that ignoring questions is not as prevalent here as ignoring answers is.
2. As presented in scripture, the purpose of tongues/prophecy is to edify the believer/church. And you know how satan loves to monkey with God's people and cut them off from what God has for them. That I believe is why they fell out of general practice for some time. But then God says He will pour out His Spirit anew in the end. Perhaps their resurgence in 1906 (if we have to put a date on it) marks the beginning of the end?
3. It is interesting that Paul said he wished we all would speak in tongues, but that not all would. It is clearly evident that many in the body refuse to take part in the gifts God has provided us with. I have to believe that since Paul said he wished we all would that it is possible for all of us to do it, but that Paul knew there would be those who will refuse to take it up.
Not to be harsh, but I find that ignoring questions is not as prevalent here as ignoring answers is.
"
Here you taken the vers out of the context and given a new meaning! It is clear said that not all are getting the gift of speaking in tongues. Otherwise we must also say we all have the gift of healing, the gift of prophecie, we all are would be Apostels, Teacher, Prophets and doer of miracles! It is not the fault of the believers if they dont have the gift of speaking in tongues! Who is the giver of the gifts?
Yes I am skeptic to this doctrine, because i cant find in bible! And this is the base for me. We all are in responsible what we say and teach!
Here you taken the vers out of the context and given a new meaning! It is clear said that not all are getting the gift of speaking in tongues. Otherwise we must also say we all have the gift of healing, the gift of prophecie, we all are would be Apostels, Teacher, Prophets and doer of miracles! It is not the fault of the believers if they dont have the gift of speaking in tongues! Who is the giver of the gifts?
Yes I am skeptic to this doctrine, because i cant find in bible! And this is the base for me. We all are in responsible what we say and teach!
One must discern between gifts and offices. There is the gift of prophecy, a one time or maybe occasional receiving/giving of prophecy, then there is the office of a prophet, someone who is called upon to give prophecy as a continuous course of action. Kinda like, anyone can use a fire extinguisher on a fire, but that doesn't make them a fireman.
And it's true that not all believers will be given every gift available. That depends on place and circumstance. If you receive words of wisdom on a regular basis, does that mean that when someone is sick you can't expect to also pass along a gift of healing? Would you really tell a sick person "gee I know you need healing, but I don't do that one?" Or would you leave the door open to working that gift as well?
Tongues is the only gift Paul said he wished we would all partake in. He also said that was the least of the gifts. I find that to be an interesting paradox. Too, the Bible says that when perfection comes (meaning the restoration of all that man has lost), we will all then speak in a singular spiritual language. That's why I tend to believe we all have the potential for it. But I could be wrong.
Take salvation. It is available to everyone. God wishes that everyone will receive it. But will everyone receive it? Nope. Perhaps, maybe, tongues falls into that same pattern.
Tongues are not required of anyone. You are not less of a Christian if you never speak in them. But, if Paul and the Bible says to eagerly seek it, and that it provides edification, why would one choose not to?
And it's true that not all believers will be given every gift available. That depends on place and circumstance. If you receive words of wisdom on a regular basis, does that mean that when someone is sick you can't expect to also pass along a gift of healing? Would you really tell a sick person "gee I know you need healing, but I don't do that one?" Or would you leave the door open to working that gift as well?
Tongues is the only gift Paul said he wished we would all partake in. He also said that was the least of the gifts. I find that to be an interesting paradox. Too, the Bible says that when perfection comes (meaning the restoration of all that man has lost), we will all then speak in a singular spiritual language. That's why I tend to believe we all have the potential for it. But I could be wrong.
Take salvation. It is available to everyone. God wishes that everyone will receive it. But will everyone receive it? Nope. Perhaps, maybe, tongues falls into that same pattern.
Tongues are not required of anyone. You are not less of a Christian if you never speak in them. But, if Paul and the Bible says to eagerly seek it, and that it provides edification, why would one choose not to?
L
Very much agree. Especially the part about the gift being available for all but not all will receive it. The Lord will not force any of us to receive from Him. I wish He would but He doesn't work that way for good reasons that I don't know about. He wants us to walk by faith and that takes growing.
There are many things that I have yet to learn about and to receive by faith that are still in the works. Tongues was one of those things back over a year ago. I speak in tongues in prayer all the time and I'm encouraged and built up in the faith each and every time. On the way to work each evening I pray in tongues and am able to meet the night with ability and without fear.
Speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit that I received by faith. No one has ever heard me but the Lord. I sing in tongues at work when I do security checks in the building. I ask God in my mind and sing in tongues when praying for protection for the people at night. I have a lot to learn about the things of God but I'm thankful He doesn't expect us to understand all the mysteries but only for us to trust and rely on Him and believe He has our best interests and those we come in contact with.
There is great consolation in our life when we trust the Lord and seek the things He instructs us to seek. Reading in the Bible about the promises He has for us is how we find out what they are. We don't have to know how God is going to do the things He has promised in our lives.,we just have to trust Him to do as He said. Stepping out in faith and seeking the gift of tongues was major for me.
The benefits of edification and being built up my faith are a major and daily outcome of speaking in tongues.
If the voice of God babbled into the minds of His chosen prophets and saints, none of us would understand anything that God wanted us to know in our earthly language. Those of us who testified to every word that formed in our mind via the voice of God wrote down those words in the earthly language that we understand. It would be impossible for us to understand if those words were written in a different language.
However, we learn that God's invisible language in wave form has to be converted by the Word into our earthly language. The Word converts God's language into everything man experiences both visible and invisible.
John 1
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: He was in the beginning with God;
3: all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
John 6
63: It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
I Colossians 1:
15: He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;
16: for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities – all things were created through him and for him.
17: He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
However, we learn that God's invisible language in wave form has to be converted by the Word into our earthly language. The Word converts God's language into everything man experiences both visible and invisible.
John 1
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: He was in the beginning with God;
3: all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
John 6
63: It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
I Colossians 1:
15: He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;
16: for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities – all things were created through him and for him.
17: He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Our native language is called a tongue. It was a sign of rebellion in regard to the language of the unbelieving Jew.
The spiritul language is when God interprets it in another persons language. It is two fold as all spiritual gifts, not after the flesh. But used in edifying both the one sent by the will of God and the one that receives the interpretation., the will of God.
God is not served by human hands. It is not a one sided interpretation called communication as to edify the one speaking in their native tongue.(self edification) But by the same mutual faith of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God as that comes from hearing God.It edifies both. And is not of ourselves lest any man boast in a interpretation work of themselves.
Well Ill just give you some things that Grace777x77 has posted on here a few times
1 Corinthians 14:2 (NASB)
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
1 Corinthians 14:4 (NASB)
4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.
Here we can see that it is our spirit that is praying and the person activates with his will this devotional praying with his spirit or with his mind. verse 15
1 Corinthians 14:14-15 (NASB)
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
There is also a tongues and interpretation which is used mostly in the church assembly setting and it is as the Spirit of God wills and not us. This type of "tongues" is used to edify or build up the church. 1 Cor. 14:5, 26-27
Tongues plus interpretation of tongues when being used to build up believers other then ourselves is the same as prophecy. Here is what prophecy is supposed to do.
1 Corinthians 14:3 (NASB)
3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.
Proof that Paul was speaking about unknown tounges, not known languages by Grace777x70
1 Corinthians 13:1 (KJV)
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am becom eas sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1 Corinthians 14:2 (NASB)
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands,
but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
1 Corinthians 14:4 (NASB)
4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.
1 Corinthians 14:5 (NASB)
5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.
1 Corinthians 14:10 (NASB)
10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning.
1 Corinthians 14:14-15 (NASB)
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
( The person's spirit is praying in tongues here - not his mind which would be in a "known" language )
15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
( See, the two kinds of praying - one with the spirit of a person - the other with the mind - which would be a "known" language )
1 Corinthians 14:18 (NASB)
18 I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;
It's very clear that Paul is talking about a supernatural language that the speaker does not know that the Holy Spirit gives utterance to our spirit to speak mysteries to our Father and Lord.
I am always amazed at the lengths some go to take out the supernatural aspect of the Holy Spirit in our lives and we end up living on our own human reasoning. Forbid not to speak in tongues.
Tongues will cease when knowledge vanishes away. 1 Cor 13:8
1 Corinthians 14:39 (NASB)
39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.
( why in the world would they forbid someone from speaking a language they know with their own mind? )
(((((1 Corinthians 14:28 (NASB)
28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.))))
1 Corinthians 14:2 (NASB)
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
1 Corinthians 14:4 (NASB)
4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.
Here we can see that it is our spirit that is praying and the person activates with his will this devotional praying with his spirit or with his mind. verse 15
1 Corinthians 14:14-15 (NASB)
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
There is also a tongues and interpretation which is used mostly in the church assembly setting and it is as the Spirit of God wills and not us. This type of "tongues" is used to edify or build up the church. 1 Cor. 14:5, 26-27
Tongues plus interpretation of tongues when being used to build up believers other then ourselves is the same as prophecy. Here is what prophecy is supposed to do.
1 Corinthians 14:3 (NASB)
3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.
Proof that Paul was speaking about unknown tounges, not known languages by Grace777x70
1 Corinthians 13:1 (KJV)
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am becom eas sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1 Corinthians 14:2 (NASB)
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands,
but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
1 Corinthians 14:4 (NASB)
4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.
1 Corinthians 14:5 (NASB)
5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.
1 Corinthians 14:10 (NASB)
10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning.
1 Corinthians 14:14-15 (NASB)
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
( The person's spirit is praying in tongues here - not his mind which would be in a "known" language )
15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
( See, the two kinds of praying - one with the spirit of a person - the other with the mind - which would be a "known" language )
1 Corinthians 14:18 (NASB)
18 I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;
It's very clear that Paul is talking about a supernatural language that the speaker does not know that the Holy Spirit gives utterance to our spirit to speak mysteries to our Father and Lord.
I am always amazed at the lengths some go to take out the supernatural aspect of the Holy Spirit in our lives and we end up living on our own human reasoning. Forbid not to speak in tongues.
Tongues will cease when knowledge vanishes away. 1 Cor 13:8
1 Corinthians 14:39 (NASB)
39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.
( why in the world would they forbid someone from speaking a language they know with their own mind? )
(((((1 Corinthians 14:28 (NASB)
28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.))))
I see that from another perspective. Speaking mysteries is speaking prophecy it what they do reveal the unseen mysteries.
The speaker speaks in his native tongue like Peter. The mysteries as to the interpretation in another tongue are revealed by God as prophecy. It also serves a as a sign of rebellion to the unbelieving Jew(no faith).
There are no outward signs that confirm a person has the Holy Spirit.
We walk by faith not after our working experiences (sight)
If one speaks in their native tongue in a group or to one person of another language they edify themselves. There is nothing we could do to edify one self.
That kind of idea would appear to promote self-righteousness. Like the name it clam it gospel as they speak it claim it.
When God interprets it into their language (prophecy)it edifies both who edify God in the end of the manner ..
It’s not one sided as in no way of reasoning with a person with a different tongue. When the first person speaks in their own language the second receives the gift of tongues the interpretation of the other language. And vice versa. Two fold edification toward God. Or no one gets edified.
It’s not according to the "will of man", either of the speaker in his own language, or the one (the hearer of faith) that is receives the interpretation in their own .
Yes there will be no mutual edification. It would be as the mind of man without the Spirit of Christ. “no fruit”.
Again he will pray with his mind using the language his mind is accustomed to .God does the interpreting. It His prophecy and not after the mind of sinful man..
It is all one thing,one work of faith as a labor of Christ love, working again in both. .
Tongues according to the language of the speaker is interpreted by the Holy Spirit into another tongue.
God’s interpretation is used to build up both believers other than one self. It is prophecy. God is no longer bringing any new prophecy.
Yes as long as God was bringing new prophecy it was not forbidden .
Tongues will cease when knowledge vanishes away. 1 Cor 13:8
New knowledge, but not all knowledge but by new prophecy.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, “they shall fail”; whether there be tongues, they shall cease;
The speaker speaks in his native tongue like Peter. The mysteries as to the interpretation in another tongue are revealed by God as prophecy. It also serves a as a sign of rebellion to the unbelieving Jew(no faith).
There are no outward signs that confirm a person has the Holy Spirit.
We walk by faith not after our working experiences (sight)
If one speaks in their native tongue in a group or to one person of another language they edify themselves. There is nothing we could do to edify one self.
That kind of idea would appear to promote self-righteousness. Like the name it clam it gospel as they speak it claim it.
When God interprets it into their language (prophecy)it edifies both who edify God in the end of the manner ..
It’s not one sided as in no way of reasoning with a person with a different tongue. When the first person speaks in their own language the second receives the gift of tongues the interpretation of the other language. And vice versa. Two fold edification toward God. Or no one gets edified.
It’s not according to the "will of man", either of the speaker in his own language, or the one (the hearer of faith) that is receives the interpretation in their own .
Yes there will be no mutual edification. It would be as the mind of man without the Spirit of Christ. “no fruit”.
Again he will pray with his mind using the language his mind is accustomed to .God does the interpreting. It His prophecy and not after the mind of sinful man..
It is all one thing,one work of faith as a labor of Christ love, working again in both. .
Tongues according to the language of the speaker is interpreted by the Holy Spirit into another tongue.
God’s interpretation is used to build up both believers other than one self. It is prophecy. God is no longer bringing any new prophecy.
Yes as long as God was bringing new prophecy it was not forbidden .
Tongues will cease when knowledge vanishes away. 1 Cor 13:8
New knowledge, but not all knowledge but by new prophecy.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, “they shall fail”; whether there be tongues, they shall cease;
"One must discern between gifts and offices. There is the gift of prophecy, a one time or maybe occasional receiving/giving of prophecy, then there is the office of a prophet, someone who is called upon to give prophecy as a continuous course of action. Kinda like, anyone can use a fire extinguisher on a fire, but that doesn't make them a fireman. "
From where you got, that the gift of prophecie is not permanent? If you read 1. Cor. 12,7ff you will get not the impression that the mentioned gifts are only for one time ore maybe occasional reciving/giving.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man for profit. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another various kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But in all these works that one and same Spirit, dividing to every man individually as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now has God set the members every one of them in the body, as it has pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where would be the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of you: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our less respectable parts have greater respect. 24 For our more respectable parts have no need: but God has arranged the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked: 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God has set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helpers, administrators, various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Paul describes the giving of the gifts with a body which has different parts which works togehter with their special ability. (A eye can not hear and a nose can not see) Who has the gift of healing should heal, and who has the gitft of serving should serve.
"And it's true that not all believers will be given every gift available. That depends on place and circumstance. If you receive words of wisdom on a regular basis, does that mean that when someone is sick you can't expect to also pass along a gift of healing? Would you really tell a sick person "gee I know you need healing, but I don't do that one?" Or would you leave the door open to working that gift as well?"
As you see in the above mentioned verses it seems not that an eye can suddenly ore ocassional hear ore smell. Ore a leg will do the job of a finger. I can not see a scriptual proof for what you say. If I would know that a certain believer has an gift of wisdom, then i would not expect from him to heal me. I would go to the Lord at first and then to the eldest of the church.
"Tongues is the only gift Paul said he wished we would all partake in. He also said that was the least of the gifts. I find that to be an interesting paradox. Too, the Bible says that when perfection comes (meaning the restoration of all that man has lost), we will all then speak in a singular spiritual language. That's why I tend to believe we all have the potential for it. But I could be wrong."
If you read from 1. Cor 12, 31 on to 1.Cor. 14, 1 then you find out that we: a) should covet earnestly the best gifts.
b) follow after love c) and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that you may prophesy.
Tongues so far, as you said the least of the gifts! But it seems me it will treat to be the highest of the gifts.
Can you show me in bible please where the Bible says that when perfection comes (meaning the restoration of all that man has lost), we will all then speak in a singular spiritual language?
Isnt this idea little strange, that we all should have the potential for a spiritual language, but only those which are baptised with the Holy Spirit as an second expierience are able to use it? In Pauls teaching i cant find an hint that speaking in tongues is conectet with the baptising of the Holy Spirit. To give the gift is the job of the Holy Spirit, according to his will.
As I wrote before, what is with the believers before the pentecostal movement createt this doctrine in around 1905? They all failed to be equipped for the ministry. And also all believers who said no to this doctrine since 1905 are not equipped for the ministry.
In the age of 25 the Lord found me and i became a believer, I received the Holy Spirit, then I searched for an church and came to menonite bretheren. I attend a bible college. And i found out all denominations are not 100% rigth in there teachings. In the first years as christian i met also pentecostal people, who told me i should have the baptising with the Holy Spirit and the speaking of tongues. I read in the scripture and prayed also for. But then it comes clear to me that it is false.
From the beginnig of beeing a christian i could recognize which spirit is behind. And i case of the doctrine with the baptising with the Holy Spirit and as proof to receive the speaking in tongues was from beginning strange for me. In this time i had no much idea from menonite doctrine. I grew up as an nominal christian, as the most in germany, babybaptised but without reading the bible. So it is not because i was uesed mennonite ore any else doctrine.
Then through my churchlife i had some bad expieriences with charismatics, which made me more clear this doctrine is wrong.
For somebody who grew up in a pentecostal church ore in charismatic churches this shurely sounds strange. I dont know a denomination which has 100 % right doctrine. So we have to proof the word of god. And we have to ask the Lord for guidance and understanding.
Before I became a christian, i thought i am a christian, because i am baptised as child and i belonged to the protestant church. Then people shoewed me from the bible, that i am not a christian. First i was shocked and could not believe it.
It takes some month, finaly i attend a youth club. At this night was the them Follow Jesus. At this night the Lord opened my heart and i understand that i could not stand in front of God, because of my guilt. And after this service My heart wish was to go to Jesus. In this night I asked him to forgive me and to rule over my life. And I know that he came into my heart.and gave me eternal life. He adoptet me in his family. It was the 3rd october 1987. Praise to the Lord!
We should not follow any human, we should follow Jesus. As humans we are always in the danger to create our own way of what is to believe. The result we are seeing in our world. So many denomoinations and churches and all are convinced we are right and the other wrong!
Sorry for the long delay, I've been on the road.
You make a good point that a hand is not a foot, and I've reconsidered my stand on the 'interchangeability' of the gifts. They are not as freely passed around as I proposed. You are right on that one.
But that does not mean there is no crossover. 99% of the gifts God has used me to deliver have been words of wisdom and knowledge. That is the gift God calls upon me to work in. But that doesn't mean that a time or two in the past God hasn't used me to deliver a healing, because He has. But you're right, that has been a rare exception to the rule.
I guess what I should be saying is that, God will choose you as viaduct of one particular gift, and that is the gift you should seek to operate in. But don't close the door to Him being able to work something else in a particular situation. Does that make more sense?
You have also made me realize that my descriptors of the difference between a gift and an office is off too. Perhaps that should be more, that an office is a position in church leadership designed to bring a certain gift to the assembly, whereas a gift is something God gives thru individuals to individuals in the body.
Wow, did I just change an opinion in the face of a good argument, here at CC ? It seems so out of place
lol
Tongues are unique among the gifts. Yes they are the least to be desired, yet the most to be debated. I think that's because they are seen more often in the assembly than the other gifts, for both good and bad reasons. If I speak in a tongue it's pretty obvious to anyone around me. But if the Spirit delivers a healing, that's more between just I and the receiver (and God).
It's confusing that tongues have 2 forms, which lends to misunderstanding and thus debate. There's the prayer tongue that's private between you and God, and there's the prophetic tongue that is between you, an interpreter, and the assembly. It's not always clear which of the two is being talked about - yet the difference between them and their uses presents a very clear line.
Every single gift except prayer tongues is given thru you to someone else. If I am used for healing, it is not I that (primarily) benefits but the person God has brought me to/to me. Prophetic tongues are not for the ones giving and interpreting, but for the listening assembly. Words of wisdom don't guide the giver, they guide the receiver. Every gift you receive from the Holy Spirit, save one, is given thru you to edify someone else.
Save prayer tongues. Prayer tongues are the one and only gift that primarily edifies the individual, the 'user'.
Zeph. 3:9 is where you find God restoring a pure language - For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent (KJV). I think there's another in Isaiah but it escapes me at the moment. The point is, that a single pure language was something we all had, we all lost, and will all have again. Every single one of us. Paul wished that every single one of us would speak in prayer tongues. All that and the fact that it is for our own edification, I have to believe Paul was implying that we all have the potential for prayer tongues. But not prophetic tongues.
But even tho it may edify us, and Paul wished us all to do it, he still says it is the last in importance of the gifts. Why would this curious juxtaposition be? Because, simply, we are to serve others before ourselves. So we should first seek the gifts that serve others around us, before we seek the one that serves to recharge us. That is one (one) reason I'm not much a fan of the charismatic thing, they do put it on a pedestal and make it the most important thing of all. Frankly, if they're not healing/enlightening/prophesying et al, they shouldn't be bragging about their 'gift'.
You make a good point that a hand is not a foot, and I've reconsidered my stand on the 'interchangeability' of the gifts. They are not as freely passed around as I proposed. You are right on that one.
But that does not mean there is no crossover. 99% of the gifts God has used me to deliver have been words of wisdom and knowledge. That is the gift God calls upon me to work in. But that doesn't mean that a time or two in the past God hasn't used me to deliver a healing, because He has. But you're right, that has been a rare exception to the rule.
I guess what I should be saying is that, God will choose you as viaduct of one particular gift, and that is the gift you should seek to operate in. But don't close the door to Him being able to work something else in a particular situation. Does that make more sense?
You have also made me realize that my descriptors of the difference between a gift and an office is off too. Perhaps that should be more, that an office is a position in church leadership designed to bring a certain gift to the assembly, whereas a gift is something God gives thru individuals to individuals in the body.
Wow, did I just change an opinion in the face of a good argument, here at CC ? It seems so out of place
lolTongues are unique among the gifts. Yes they are the least to be desired, yet the most to be debated. I think that's because they are seen more often in the assembly than the other gifts, for both good and bad reasons. If I speak in a tongue it's pretty obvious to anyone around me. But if the Spirit delivers a healing, that's more between just I and the receiver (and God).
It's confusing that tongues have 2 forms, which lends to misunderstanding and thus debate. There's the prayer tongue that's private between you and God, and there's the prophetic tongue that is between you, an interpreter, and the assembly. It's not always clear which of the two is being talked about - yet the difference between them and their uses presents a very clear line.
Every single gift except prayer tongues is given thru you to someone else. If I am used for healing, it is not I that (primarily) benefits but the person God has brought me to/to me. Prophetic tongues are not for the ones giving and interpreting, but for the listening assembly. Words of wisdom don't guide the giver, they guide the receiver. Every gift you receive from the Holy Spirit, save one, is given thru you to edify someone else.
Save prayer tongues. Prayer tongues are the one and only gift that primarily edifies the individual, the 'user'.
Zeph. 3:9 is where you find God restoring a pure language - For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent (KJV). I think there's another in Isaiah but it escapes me at the moment. The point is, that a single pure language was something we all had, we all lost, and will all have again. Every single one of us. Paul wished that every single one of us would speak in prayer tongues. All that and the fact that it is for our own edification, I have to believe Paul was implying that we all have the potential for prayer tongues. But not prophetic tongues.
But even tho it may edify us, and Paul wished us all to do it, he still says it is the last in importance of the gifts. Why would this curious juxtaposition be? Because, simply, we are to serve others before ourselves. So we should first seek the gifts that serve others around us, before we seek the one that serves to recharge us. That is one (one) reason I'm not much a fan of the charismatic thing, they do put it on a pedestal and make it the most important thing of all. Frankly, if they're not healing/enlightening/prophesying et al, they shouldn't be bragging about their 'gift'.