Prosperity preaching Pastor prosecuted, prisoned

Angela53510 · Dec 26, 2017

Both! God changed me in amazing ways, when he first justified me! But, that was only the beginning! During my life, God has been sanctifying me! That requires cooperation, justification does not.

God did some miracles in my life when he saved me - first was that he saved my hard heart. He delivered me from drinking, and he showed me the path I was to walk. But, he left a lot of things for me to work on. God shows me new things daily that I need to repent of. Some things I changed on the outside, but needed God to change on the inside. And sometimes, God let me walk away from something, hence the need to let Christ change me, even 37 years after I was saved.

Justification - God makes us righteous through faith. Romans 5:1
Sanctification - Our walk with God, and all the things he changes with us cooperating. (2 Thess 2:13, 2 Cor. 7:2)
Glorification - When we see Christ face to face, and we become like him. (1 John 3:2; 1 Cor. 13:12) This happens when Christ returns, and we see him face to face.

So, we are being made perfect, but not yet perfect. We need to be changed by the power of God, and then we also need to let God change us, as we walk with him. To better illustrate this:

”[FONT=&quot][/FONT]Do not be conformed to this present world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may test and approve what is the will of God—what is good and well-pleasing and perfect.” Romans 12:2. NET[FONT=&quot]

The word “transformed” in this verse, is [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]μεταμορφοῦσθε[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (metamorphousthe) and is in the present, passive imperative, 2nd person plural. It is a theological passive, in that God is the one who transforms. But, we are commanded to be transformed, which means we have to cooperate with God.

Paul uses exactly the same word in 2 Cor. 3:18, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]μεταμορφούμεθα[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (metamorphoumetha) except it is 1st person plural. (Present Passive Imperative)

“[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit.” 2 Cor. 3:18
[FONT=&quot]
God commands us to let him transform us. So we do need to cooperate although I firmly believe that as believers in Christ, if we resist the Holy Spirit, God will bring us back to the path he has made for us, should we veer away for a short while.

I hope that explanation helps a bit![/FONT]

BillG · Dec 26, 2017

Angela53510 said:

For some reason I can't put a person on ignore.
Some may feel and some do feel I accommodate and or endorse those I don't agree with, engage with. Therefore weak and Lilly livered.

I am aware of what I still am and was. So if a person wants to engage I will do so.

I have never had a problem saying to people please do not respond to me any more when I have come to realise they have no wish to engage but just impose and bring you down. Yet at times I have responded to their posts to others. Mainly when its to people who may fall for it.

I don't know how putting someone on ignore works.
Do we still see their posts?

Yes I agree bragging about what you are doing is immature, its bringing glory to oneself.
Bragging about what Jesus has done for you and in you is bringing glory to him.

Yes some people deserved to be banned. If their concourse is to disrupt and tear down and bring disharmony then yes remove them.

shrume · Dec 26, 2017

Angela53510 said:

Thanks for trying to explain.

As you know, I do not hold to reformed theology (Calvinism). I believe our cooperation is required for justification, as well. People must choose to believe the gospel, then God saves them by sealing then with the gift of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13-14).

I believe God gave mankind actual free will, and left it up to us to decide whether to believe or not. It is choice that every man must make.

Concerning this:

What about Demas? What about all those in Asia who abandoned Paul? Do you believe they were never saved? Or do you believe they all eventually were brought "back to the path"? (even though the Bible does not state they were).

Why did Paul tell Timothy to "fan into flame" the gift of God that was in him?

Why are we told to "put on the whole armor of God"?

I mean.. If God always brings us back to the path, why is there so much admonishment and encouragement to stay the course, not be deceived, "press for the mark", etc, etc?

edit: sorry my quote of your post is so messed up. It was not intentional..

notuptome · Dec 26, 2017

Angela53510 said:

Both! God changed me in amazing ways, when he first justified me! But, that was only the beginning! During my life, God has been sanctifying me! That requires cooperation, justification does not.

God did some miracles in my life when he saved me - first was that he saved my hard heart. He delivered me from drinking, and he showed me the path I was to walk. But, he left a lot of things for me to work on. God shows me new things daily that I need to repent of. Some things I changed on the outside, but needed God to change on the inside. And sometimes, God let me walk away from something, hence the need to let Christ change me, even 37 years after I was saved.

Justification - God makes us righteous through faith. Romans 5:1
Sanctification - Our walk with God, and all the things he changes with us cooperating. (2 Thess 2:13, 2 Cor. 7:2)
Glorification - When we see Christ face to face, and we become like him. (1 John 3:2; 1 Cor. 13:12) This happens when Christ returns, and we see him face to face.

So, we are being made perfect, but not yet perfect. We need to be changed by the power of God, and then we also need to let God change us, as we walk with him. To better illustrate this:

”Do not be conformed to this present world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may test and approve what is the will of God—what is good and well-pleasing and perfect.” Romans 12:2. NET

The word “transformed” in this verse, is μεταμορφοῦσθε (metamorphousthe) and is in the present, passive imperative, 2nd person plural. It is a theological passive, in that God is the one who transforms. But, we are commanded to be transformed, which means we have to cooperate with God.

Paul uses exactly the same word in 2 Cor. 3:18, μεταμορφούμεθα (metamorphoumetha) except it is 1st person plural. (Present Passive Imperative)

“And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit.” 2 Cor. 3:18

God commands us to let him transform us. So we do need to cooperate although I firmly believe that as believers in Christ, if we resist the Holy Spirit, God will bring us back to the path he has made for us, should we veer away for a short while.

I hope that explanation helps a bit!

It worries me quite a bit. Calvinism seeks to make God responsible for mans sin. If God chooses then God assumes the responsibility.

Individual repentance and acceptance of the gospel is brought about individuals accepting responsibility for their sin before Almighty God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Angela53510 · Dec 26, 2017

shrume said:

I don’t know about you, but there have certainly been seasons in my life, when I wandered from God and he had to bring me back. When I first got RA, many saw how sick I was. But, we moved before I got good treatment, and a lot of things happened to really make me angry at God and life. Now, the people where we lived when I first got RA just remembered those very early years, with no treatment, they probably would have thought I was Demas, too! They never saw the amazing work God did in my life, over 5 years later. And that he continues to do. And how necessary it was for me to be hurting and broken, to understand how to minister to the hurting and broken!

And then, I met people who did “fan into flame” the gift of God that was in me. (Probably not quite the gift Timothy had!). I trust that if God saves someone, he will bring them back.

That is the problem with using personal examples like Demas or those who abandoned Paul. We do not know either the beginning or the end to their stories. If God saved them, they would have come back. Paul may never have been informed. It may have happened after Paul was put to death. Or he just didn’t hear about it, with time and distances being what they were in NT times.

God was always so faithful to me, I cannot imagine how God would not be faithful to those he has saved everywhere, who need to be reminded to keep on letting the Holy Spirit lead and guide us. Or perhaps, as John says in his first epistle, they were never really one of us.

”They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, because if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But they went out from us to demonstrate that all of them do not belong to us.” 1 John 2:19 NET

But I guess if you think you can save yourself, it stands to reason that you can walk away from God. What a sad way to live your life. To think you have more power than God. Sorry, you meant “free will” which I have searched in vain to find in the Bible, and never found it in an concordance, translation or the original languages.

PS Reformed Baptist! I know little about Calvin. He is on my “difficult reading list” - which I keep putting off reading.

shrume · Dec 26, 2017

Angela53510 said:

I don't believe God "brought you back". I believe you decided to come back. I have no doubt that God worked in you to come back, but it was your decision to do so.

It was not God's will for you to suffer. Oppression comes from the devil, not God.

How? By forcing them? By taking over their thinking?

That is not a "given".

Or, they never came back. We don't know.

God is always faithful.

God is always faithful. People, including Christians, frequently are not.

So you think it's possible that Demas, whom Paul, by revelation, called a fellow laborer, was not a Christian?

I don't think that's possible.

I do not think I can save myself. But I absolutely do think that I made the decision to believe the gospel, and when I did, God saved me.

Anyone can come to God, and anyone can walk away from God. If they are a Christian, they will be saved, but Christians can, and unfortunately sometimes do, walk away from God. God does not control what people think.

Love is a choice. God decided to love us, and He wants us to love Him back. If God determines who will love Him, it's not love.

That's a straw man frequently employed by Calvinists. I do not have more power than God.

It's all over the Bible. God wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). His desire for the wicked is for them to turn from their evil ways so they might live (Eze 33:11). Whosoever will may come (John 3:16; Rev 22:17).

Reformed Theology = Calvinism.

Angela53510 · Dec 26, 2017

Very hard to deal with all this simplistic thinking you are abducting every thread with. Are you also Word Faith? I guess you have not really read the Bible, like Job for example, or Romans 5:3-5.

No, I did not make a decision to turn back to God. He turned my heart back, thorough the Bible. I was much to far away to have made a decision to come back to God. It was God bringing me back, kicking and screaming the whole way.

Anyway, I am done with you. If you want to make your own thread discussing this, then perhaps I will participate. But, I think it is time to stop abducting threads with your poor hermeneutics, and bad theology.

shrume · Dec 26, 2017

Angela53510 said:

How is it simplistic?

No.

Come on, Angela... You're better than this.

Part of the truth that came by Jesus Christ was the fact that we're in the middle of a spiritual war, where God and His armies are literally at war with the devil and his angels. That information was generally not known prior to Christ's coming, which is why in the OT God is frequently portrayed as being the source for both good and evil.

In the NT we read:

1 John 5: (ESV)
19) We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

2 Cor 4:
4) In whom the god of this world [age] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Luke 4:
5) And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6) And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

That information was not known in the OT. Now we know it (or should).

Rom 3:
3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

God is not the source of our persecution or tribulations. Even Paul's thorn in the flesh was "the messenger of Satan".

You are free to believe that. But you chose to listen to God's prompting.

My, my..

I'm sorry you've resulted to false accusations and insults.

lightbearer · Dec 26, 2017

Angela53510 said:

LOL Some of the posts here on this forum crack me up!

It is a Amazing really!

Word; the greatest thing one can know is that they don't know jack!

notuptome · Dec 26, 2017

shrume said:

Calvin was a reformer but the reformation was Luther and the 95 thesis. Calvin was not all the good a reformer and was far more Catholic than todays reformed Calvinists care to acknowledge. Calvin was Dutch reformed and held to many Catholic doctrines.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · Dec 26, 2017

Luther not Calvin posited the five solas of the reformation not Calvin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Laish · Dec 26, 2017

notuptome said:

Well ya do know the Five solas we’re not packaged and defined as they are today until near the beginning or at the start of the 20th century . They were expressed in the writings of the reformers just not all together . Luther was first to do lots of things during the reformation. Sense Calvin was 9 when Luther put up His sticky note also concerning Calvin being more Catholic lol check out Luther’s opinion of Mary and the lords supper . Both guys had their flaws .
Blessings
Bill

tourist · Dec 26, 2017

BillG said:

I heard that it's the root of all evil.

oldethennew · Dec 27, 2017

ACTS 9:16.
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for My Name's sake.

1COR. 10:13.
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful,
who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation
also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

11COR. 1:6.
And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in
the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted,
it is for your consolation and salvation.

PHI. 1:29.
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer
for His sake;

1TH. 1:5.
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy
of The Kingdom of God, for which you also suffer:

11TH. 1:11-12.
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling,
and fulfil all the good pleasure of His goodness, and the work of faith with power:

That The Name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according
to the grace of our God and The Lord Jesus Christ.

preacher4truth · Dec 27, 2017

lightbearer said:

She was spot on with her post.

Since you believe this to be true, and post it to point to yourself as humble, or something, why don't you practice it yourself?

notuptome · Dec 27, 2017

Laish said:

No doubt and I would not tell anyone to go into a Lutheran church. We may live long enough to see the Lutheran's get reabsorbed into the Roman Catholic church.

I only mention these things because some seem to think that the reformation was all about Calvin. It was all about formation of what we see today as Protestantism as in opposition to Romanism. The bible as opposed to church doctrine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

tourist · Dec 27, 2017

notuptome said:

What churches or denominations, if any, are 100% biblically and spiritually sound in all practices and doctrines?

notuptome · Dec 27, 2017

tourist said:

You are able to come pretty close if you can find a small fundamental bible church that technically will have no denominational affiliation. They are few in number and are indeed precious. Next might be an independent Baptist but many of these get way too concerned about the type and procedure of water baptism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Search

Prosperity preaching Pastor prosecuted, prisoned

Angela53510

Senior Member

BillG

Senior Member

shrume

Senior Member

notuptome

Senior Member

Angela53510

Senior Member

shrume

Senior Member

Angela53510

Senior Member

shrume

Senior Member

lightbearer

Senior Member

notuptome

Senior Member

notuptome

Senior Member

Laish

Senior Member

tourist

Senior Member

oldethennew

Banned

preacher4truth

Senior Member

notuptome

Senior Member

tourist

Senior Member

notuptome

Senior Member