question about the souls already dead
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You're clueless about the resurrection.
Christ has resurrected and ascended bodily making Him the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep (1 Corinthians 15:20). When believers, like Abraham and David, die their body remain in the grave but their soul and spirit return to the Lord. Thus in Acts 2:34, Peter was saying that David’s body didn’t ascend into heaven; it's in the grave however, at the future resurrection the soul and spirit will unite with the body - incorruptible bodies for believers. Therefore it is Christ Himself that is risen and sitting at the right hand of God (Psalms 110, Acts 2:34).
Also, when the bible speaks of 'sleeping' for instance in 1 Thessalonians 4:13, it is referring to the body instead of the soul. In other words, 'asleep' is figure of speech for death.
Christ has resurrected and ascended bodily making Him the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep (1 Corinthians 15:20). When believers, like Abraham and David, die their body remain in the grave but their soul and spirit return to the Lord. Thus in Acts 2:34, Peter was saying that David’s body didn’t ascend into heaven; it's in the grave however, at the future resurrection the soul and spirit will unite with the body - incorruptible bodies for believers. Therefore it is Christ Himself that is risen and sitting at the right hand of God (Psalms 110, Acts 2:34).
Also, when the bible speaks of 'sleeping' for instance in 1 Thessalonians 4:13, it is referring to the body instead of the soul. In other words, 'asleep' is figure of speech for death.
N
We are all learning. No one knows it all, not many anyway. And if we get into the mindset, were we have all the answers , then how can we learn anything after that point ?
We got to begin to take a mind set of helping each other , but try to avoid aimless arguments. We don't need to say, one person is this or that, then resorting to name calling, and tearing each other down; just because they don't know something. There is a lot of things everyone is falling short with in the Bible.
If you thing something is not right, then post the scriptures that clarify it if you know it then . Its too easy to resort to name calling.
We got to begin to take a mind set of helping each other , but try to avoid aimless arguments. We don't need to say, one person is this or that, then resorting to name calling, and tearing each other down; just because they don't know something. There is a lot of things everyone is falling short with in the Bible.
If you thing something is not right, then post the scriptures that clarify it if you know it then . Its too easy to resort to name calling.
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Death in that verse is referring to the second death which is being cast into the eternal fire.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If you would compare the Luke 12:5 with Matt 10:28 you’ll see that “destroy” alludes to being cast into hell fire rather than annihilated. Annihilationism is foreign to the bible.
Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If you would compare the Luke 12:5 with Matt 10:28 you’ll see that “destroy” alludes to being cast into hell fire rather than annihilated. Annihilationism is foreign to the bible.
Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Guys...ENOUGH. ugh. Why is it everytime someone makes a thread someone has to start an argument or act holier than though or just be plain mean and obnoxious?? and yes, jimmydiggss this means you. Theres no reason for you to act the way you are and be so crude. Nathan13, I happen to agree with. Honestly thanks everyone for trying to answer but i feel more confused than ever i think but it's ok.
David, not his husk or tired, old body, but David himself, has not ascended into heaven...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Not until His coming, that is unless you think this scripture is false...
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
If you believe David is in heaven and went to heaven at his death, then Christ is NOT the firstborn among many brethren.
When does Christ rule? When is the Kingdom established?
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
What kings?
Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
The kings that receive power with the Beast at the end-time.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
At the end-time.
What you failed to notice is that A & E did NOT eat of the Tree of Life. They did not receive eternal life. They are subject to death. God looked Adam squarely in the eye and said...
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Notice He did not say your body is dust, He said YOU are dust and unto dust you will return.
All this reasoning and God plainly says...
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
If the soul is immortal and conscious, why does God have to give us something we already possess?
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
What do you mean perish?
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
What about this...
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Same word for perish. Why does God have to give us eternal life if we already have it? If we are immortal, then we are only haggling about where we will spend it. God says He will give us life or the wicked will die, be fully destroyed.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
What is the word for destroy?
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Hmmm, same word.
What did God tell our first parents...
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
What is the word for die?
H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.
Yep, means to die, now what was it that Satan said?
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Satan told the first recorded lie here, "Ye shall not surely die" and humanity has believed him ever since...
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Not until His coming, that is unless you think this scripture is false...
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
If you believe David is in heaven and went to heaven at his death, then Christ is NOT the firstborn among many brethren.
When does Christ rule? When is the Kingdom established?
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
What kings?
Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
The kings that receive power with the Beast at the end-time.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
At the end-time.
What you failed to notice is that A & E did NOT eat of the Tree of Life. They did not receive eternal life. They are subject to death. God looked Adam squarely in the eye and said...
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Notice He did not say your body is dust, He said YOU are dust and unto dust you will return.
All this reasoning and God plainly says...
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
If the soul is immortal and conscious, why does God have to give us something we already possess?
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
What do you mean perish?
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
What about this...
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Same word for perish. Why does God have to give us eternal life if we already have it? If we are immortal, then we are only haggling about where we will spend it. God says He will give us life or the wicked will die, be fully destroyed.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
What is the word for destroy?
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Hmmm, same word.
What did God tell our first parents...
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
What is the word for die?
H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.
Yep, means to die, now what was it that Satan said?
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Satan told the first recorded lie here, "Ye shall not surely die" and humanity has believed him ever since...
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
N
What you have here is . a few different Separate thoughts.
I'm trying to show the Bible says, that we after death, we right away return to God in Heaven.
Others, here think ( mistakenly i my opinion ) , that no one returns to heaven, and stays in the ground or some place.
and others, just dont really care.
I rather talk about these things in the chat room with voice. It's just hard to communicate with people in these forums about Bible subjects that are too detailed to talk about here and have the thought be passed clearly without mistake from one person to another.
I'm trying to show the Bible says, that we after death, we right away return to God in Heaven.
Others, here think ( mistakenly i my opinion ) , that no one returns to heaven, and stays in the ground or some place.
and others, just dont really care.
I rather talk about these things in the chat room with voice. It's just hard to communicate with people in these forums about Bible subjects that are too detailed to talk about here and have the thought be passed clearly without mistake from one person to another.
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Mr Nathan
If the dead go directly to be with Yahshua, then who are these dead that are raised to "incorruptable" upon Yahshua's return, and where had they been the whole time in between. (i asked same thing earlier but in very poor use of english language so didt explain my question)
1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."
If the dead go directly to be with Yahshua, then who are these dead that are raised to "incorruptable" upon Yahshua's return, and where had they been the whole time in between. (i asked same thing earlier but in very poor use of english language so didt explain my question)
1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."
N
[size=+1]To john832[/size]
Remember also, Paul said, Not to be ignorant about those that are dead, that you sorrow not, even has the heathen do.
That, if you believe Christ died and rose, so don't be ignorant, so did they. And Christ, will bring them with Him at Him return. ( 1st Thessalonians 4: 13 - end )
I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
When we look up in the Strong's numbered concordance and Greek dictionary, we see that this is the only place in the whole Bible that this Greek word "alive" is used in this form. It is # 2227 in Strong Greek dictionary. "zoopoieo, dzo-op-oy-eh'-o; to vitalize, to make alive, to give life."
This does not mean to be given eternal life, but it does mean that Christ revives all. Remember in Luke 16 in the parable where the rich man was lying in torment and asked that God would send Lazarus, the poor man, to warn his brothers of the judgment. Was he soul sleeping? Of course not, he could see Abraham and he could see Lazarus being taken to the bosom of Abraham, and he knew exactly what was going on. Why? Because he was there across the gulf that separated him from Abraham and God.
All souls are made alive for some are going to eternal rewards, while others are going to paradise also to be held for the day that they will be sentenced, tested, or eternal life or to perish on Judgment Day which has not yet.
If soul sleep was true, then that rich man that wanted the favor from Lazarus would not have been going through such torment while in the place of holding after his death. ( not literal flames ) He could see the throne across the gulf and he knew that he missed it all, and there was nothing that he could do about it. He could see those that overcame, and the rich man knew that he had failed. That is the torment he felt not a literal heat of flame. It's a type of figure of speech .
Christ makes all alive, although not eternally for the sinner that has not repented, but , alive until the the time of judgment. This documents that there is no such thing as soul sleep.
1 Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming."
This may be a bit confusing, but this is referring to God's elect and the coming of Jesus Christ, and it will be discussed later in this chapter if you read on there.
Romans 8:29 "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."
He foreknew them in the first earth age, and their success and love for Him. These are "the elect" of God, and in that first earth age God also predestinated them to be similar, or like the image of Jesus Christ [His son]. This is referring to the "only begotten Son of God" who died on the cross and arose again after the third day, and now sits on the right hand of the Father in heaven to be our advocate.
Remember back in verse [23], "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
The "first fruits" of the Spirit are those that God will intercede in their lives to make these Scriptures come to pass. Both "the elect" and the "free will" Christians have the first fruits of the Spirit, when they are in the Will of God, and are in obedience to our heavenly Father.
God made some of His children similar in their compassion, like Jesus Christ had when He went to the cross. They care about those lost souls, and open themselves up to be used by the Father, and they strive to never be deceived by Satan. Though we might fall short at times, but spiritually we know that Satan is our adversary, and enemy.
Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified , them He glorified."
Genesis 3:19 "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
This verse paints a bleak picture for mankind, and the destination of the body that our soul is housed in, is the dust of the earth that it is made of. The scriptures time and time again, as i pointed to below, show this is talking about the Body itself not the soul. No one should have trouble with this. Other wise Christ parables are going to be even more troubling to people how have issues with plain statements .
And the other verses in Revelation that you quoted have very little if nothing to do with this subject.
Remember also, Paul said, Not to be ignorant about those that are dead, that you sorrow not, even has the heathen do.
That, if you believe Christ died and rose, so don't be ignorant, so did they. And Christ, will bring them with Him at Him return. ( 1st Thessalonians 4: 13 - end )
I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
When we look up in the Strong's numbered concordance and Greek dictionary, we see that this is the only place in the whole Bible that this Greek word "alive" is used in this form. It is # 2227 in Strong Greek dictionary. "zoopoieo, dzo-op-oy-eh'-o; to vitalize, to make alive, to give life."
This does not mean to be given eternal life, but it does mean that Christ revives all. Remember in Luke 16 in the parable where the rich man was lying in torment and asked that God would send Lazarus, the poor man, to warn his brothers of the judgment. Was he soul sleeping? Of course not, he could see Abraham and he could see Lazarus being taken to the bosom of Abraham, and he knew exactly what was going on. Why? Because he was there across the gulf that separated him from Abraham and God.
All souls are made alive for some are going to eternal rewards, while others are going to paradise also to be held for the day that they will be sentenced, tested, or eternal life or to perish on Judgment Day which has not yet.
If soul sleep was true, then that rich man that wanted the favor from Lazarus would not have been going through such torment while in the place of holding after his death. ( not literal flames ) He could see the throne across the gulf and he knew that he missed it all, and there was nothing that he could do about it. He could see those that overcame, and the rich man knew that he had failed. That is the torment he felt not a literal heat of flame. It's a type of figure of speech .
Christ makes all alive, although not eternally for the sinner that has not repented, but , alive until the the time of judgment. This documents that there is no such thing as soul sleep.
1 Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming."
This may be a bit confusing, but this is referring to God's elect and the coming of Jesus Christ, and it will be discussed later in this chapter if you read on there.
Romans 8:29 "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."
He foreknew them in the first earth age, and their success and love for Him. These are "the elect" of God, and in that first earth age God also predestinated them to be similar, or like the image of Jesus Christ [His son]. This is referring to the "only begotten Son of God" who died on the cross and arose again after the third day, and now sits on the right hand of the Father in heaven to be our advocate.
Remember back in verse [23], "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
The "first fruits" of the Spirit are those that God will intercede in their lives to make these Scriptures come to pass. Both "the elect" and the "free will" Christians have the first fruits of the Spirit, when they are in the Will of God, and are in obedience to our heavenly Father.
God made some of His children similar in their compassion, like Jesus Christ had when He went to the cross. They care about those lost souls, and open themselves up to be used by the Father, and they strive to never be deceived by Satan. Though we might fall short at times, but spiritually we know that Satan is our adversary, and enemy.
Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified , them He glorified."
Genesis 3:19 "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
This verse paints a bleak picture for mankind, and the destination of the body that our soul is housed in, is the dust of the earth that it is made of. The scriptures time and time again, as i pointed to below, show this is talking about the Body itself not the soul. No one should have trouble with this. Other wise Christ parables are going to be even more troubling to people how have issues with plain statements .
And the other verses in Revelation that you quoted have very little if nothing to do with this subject.
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Nathan I know it was to john, but if I may:
"in Luke 16 in the parable"
Its just that a parable, we cant take everything in a parable to be 100% functional in Yahweh's reality, thats why it is a parable.
The message I got from the parable was, "you better have done everything need before you die, as once you do you cant change anything or warn anyone else of the consequence."
I know it was addressed to John , I just wanted to pop in with that one thing.
praise YAHWEH!
"in Luke 16 in the parable"
Its just that a parable, we cant take everything in a parable to be 100% functional in Yahweh's reality, thats why it is a parable.
The message I got from the parable was, "you better have done everything need before you die, as once you do you cant change anything or warn anyone else of the consequence."
I know it was addressed to John , I just wanted to pop in with that one thing.
praise YAHWEH!
Dead awaiting a resurrection...
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Notice what happens? Job asked the question will he live again? He did not say I'll go directly somewhere, he asked if he would LIVE again.
Christ answered this...
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Paul explains this a little more...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All will be made alive again. Notice this is future tense? When?
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
First of all, Christ is the firstfruits, He is the firstborn among many brethren, then they that are Christ's when? AT HIS COMING!
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
When? At the last trump.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
You have probably heard that this is the resurrection of the body and it is then reunited with the soul. This is not scriptural...
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
The body that dies and is put in the grave is not raised again, God gives us a new body...
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
What is the state of those now dead? They are dead...
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Our hope is the resurrection...
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
What happens and when?
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Notice the parenthetical thought there? If you are not Christ's, you do not live again for 1000 years, you are not part of the first resurrection.
God's word teaches a MORTAL soul, not immortal.
Another important piece of information is that no one ever goes to heaven...
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Christ told His closest disciples, the ones who became apostles, that they could not go there. What He did promise is that He would come back here. He is coming back, resurrection the saints at His return and we stay here and rule and reign on the earth. Finally, after the Millenium and the GWTJ, the Father Himself, brings New Jerusalem to the earth...
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Notice what happens? Job asked the question will he live again? He did not say I'll go directly somewhere, he asked if he would LIVE again.
Christ answered this...
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Paul explains this a little more...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All will be made alive again. Notice this is future tense? When?
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
First of all, Christ is the firstfruits, He is the firstborn among many brethren, then they that are Christ's when? AT HIS COMING!
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
When? At the last trump.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
You have probably heard that this is the resurrection of the body and it is then reunited with the soul. This is not scriptural...
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
The body that dies and is put in the grave is not raised again, God gives us a new body...
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
What is the state of those now dead? They are dead...
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Our hope is the resurrection...
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
What happens and when?
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Notice the parenthetical thought there? If you are not Christ's, you do not live again for 1000 years, you are not part of the first resurrection.
God's word teaches a MORTAL soul, not immortal.
Another important piece of information is that no one ever goes to heaven...
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Christ told His closest disciples, the ones who became apostles, that they could not go there. What He did promise is that He would come back here. He is coming back, resurrection the saints at His return and we stay here and rule and reign on the earth. Finally, after the Millenium and the GWTJ, the Father Himself, brings New Jerusalem to the earth...
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
N
I have to go into part of Revelation and the end times, because this is What Paul deals with in this chapter at the end.
I Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
Paul is saying that you can count on this for a fact. Flesh and blood cannot be part of the Kingdom of God. Your flesh is sin. There is no way that flesh and blood can become part of the kingdom of God. This is why we have repentance, and it is also why flesh and blood will not be here when Jesus Christ's kingdom is established here on earth - ( Revelation 20:4 )
I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
When the details of a mystery are know, then it is no longer a mystery.
This deals with Christ return, and the change in bodies , that " we which are alive and remain at the return of Christ ( 1 Thess 4:17 )" go through. Why ? Because all people living in their flesh bodies will be changed instantly from their flesh bodies, into their new incorruptible bodies at when Christ returns - ( 1st Corinthians 15: 49-52 ). Paul says there, its at the Last Trump this happens. The last Trump of revelation is the 7th. What happens at the 7th ? Christ returns to this earth .
We have already established that each of us have two bodies in 1 Corinthians 15, one is of the flesh, and the other body is a spiritual body that is within our flesh body. The spiritual body is not made alive or freed from the flesh body until the flesh body dies.
I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
The time that it will take to change the natural bodies to change into their spiritual bodies will be in an instant.
Paul is telling us that this change will come "at the last trump". He identifies that trumpet as the seventh trumpet, and we know that this is the very moment when Jesus Christ comes back to earth to establish His Millennium kingdom, right here on earth. We are talking about God's trumpets here. And on the sixth trumpet Satan comes to earth to deceive the whole world.
If you are waiting for a rapture, then you are going to be raptured by someone other than Jesus Christ for He is coming to earth to set up His kingdom here. The seventh trump is the exact time when the change takes place, and Not before on the sixth.
Remember the "dead" are the "spiritually dead" in Christ. "Raised" again means to "become awakened", to become active from another existence.
Those that do not know truth, or worship Satan as their christ, are considered dead ( Revelation 20:5 ) <- They don't live, meaning, as Paul put it in 1st Corinthians 15, they don't have immortality ,unless they overcome at the end of the Lords Day when they are tested, and Satan is let loose for a short season to test them that had taken the mark. ( Revelation 20:3 ).
So that is a example of, being dead spiritually speaking, meaning, not knowing the truth of God. To draw on Christ teachings, they do not have the seal of God in their forehead ( Revelation 9: 4 ). So if they don't have that, they are these that are considered the dead , because they have not obtained eternal life through Christ yet ( Revelation 20:5 ) - these are the same people, that just took the mark, and worshiped Satan ( 52 - dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. )
The dead you can look at it as those that just worshiped Satan and are dead to the truth; they have not obtained Salvation through Christ, why ? Because they were just worshiping Satan as Paul made clear in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2. But you see, they will still be changed into a incorruptible body at Christ return, because flesh and blood cannot be in the prescience of God..
If nothing more they are changed for Judgment, if they don't overcome at the end -
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
The good, And the Bad.
The soul will shed its flesh and blood body to take on the new spiritual body, which is the incorruptible body. ( 1st Cor 15 ) You may be spiritually dead,( no truth, or have not obtained Salvation ) but you will also take on your new incorruptible body, which you will live in for the Millennium age kingdom of Christ. ( Revelation 20:4-5 )
Everyone is going to enter into the only place whereby any soul can be judged. This change from the flesh body into your new spiritual or incorruptible body. This has nothing to do with the condition of your soul. If you were lost before, you still will be lost, and if you have received Jesus Christ and are under His shed blood, you will be in that same spiritual condition. What is happening is at the sounding of the seventh which is the last trumpet all flesh will be done away with, and all souls will now exist in their spiritual bodies.
This bring out another point to consider, for if you are changed, the instant of the sounding of the seventh trumpet into your spiritual body, then whoever you see at the sounding of the sixth trumpet, when Satan arrives is a fake. If someone claims to be Jesus Christ, and you are still in your flesh body, than that supernatural person is an impostor, a fake, a liar, an Antichrist. That can't be to hard to understand. If your kids are younger than you, or grandma is still in the nursing home, than that man is a fake.
This is what we covered above concerning I Thessalonians 4:13-17. This is why Paul does not want us ignorant concerning the dead. Death is not the end but the beginning of the new life, and Paul does not want Christians especially to be ignorant as to were the dead are.
I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him
Believing that Jesus died and rose again is required of all Christians. At the seventh trump God is not going to raise soul rotting in the ground, but they are already there with Him, and at Jesus coming; these souls of passed on loved ones will return with Christ to this earth.
There is not meeting half way as the rapture theory teaches, but at their arrival you who are alive at that time will be changed to the same spiritual bodies that they have.
Satan will be supernatural when he comes, and he will present himself exactly as the rapture expects him to come. The rapture dogma was developed in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald in Scotland when she was in a sick and in a mentally ill condition.
The Scottish minister Edward Irving, took this evil vision, and formed it into what is known today as "the Rapture doctrine", and through Robert Norton's book, "The restoration of Apostles and prophets; in the Catholic Apostolic church", the view became very popular. The origins of the rapture theory is documented in Dave MacPherson's book; "The Incredible Cover-up". No part of the Catholic church has ever accepted this tradition as truth, yet certain protestant churches have accepted Margaret's sick vision as truth.
Margaret MacDonald had these visions, and she later stated that "it felt very evil", but these preachers picked up on every word of it, and down through the years that "evil lie" has been honed or perfected, and polished into a tradition that much of the church world now believes in.
I Thessalonians 4:15 "For this we say by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the time of the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep."
Like was stated before, in the Greek it states that there is no one that is alive at the Lord's coming that will precede them that are already with Him. If each soul goes back to the Father at death, then there is no way that those souls are still in the ground to be here when Jesus returns. Why? They are already there with Him.
I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
This seventh trumpet is the trumpet of God and the other trumpets are the soundings angels of God, sounding out the event of the six trumpets dealing with deceptions by Satan. The trumpet is announcing that something is about to happen before that event comes into operation. The seventh trumpet announces that God has had enough of this age of the flesh, and the new kingdom is about to begin. The dead in Christ shall rise first for they are already with Him. Their soul went immediately to be with the Father when they breathed their last breathe of life in their flesh body. That can't be that hard to understand.
In verse 1 Cor 15: 50 Paul said "I want to show you a mystery", and here Paul is saying, "I don't want you to be ignorant".
I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
In Hebrews 12:1; "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us."
This is the same Greek usage of the word "cloud" that he spoke in I Thessalonians 4:17. The clouds that Paul is speaking of is that we are going to gather in one large family. Joel talked of a cloud of locust, only here we are talking about a cloud of Christians. The "air" as given here is not "pneuma" or sky, but from "aemi" in the Greek, # 109 in the Strong's, and it means the "breath of life" or your "spiritual body". Just as he already taught takes place in 1 Corinthians 15: 51- 52 at " the Last Trump".
This is exactly what is said in I Corinthians 15:51, for we are all going to change in an instant into our "breath of life", or "spiritual bodies", to meet the Lord at His arrival at the seventh and last trumpet ( Revelation 11: 15-17 ) . Each of us that lives in the flesh bodies at the time of the "day of the Lord", at the seventh trumpet are going to greet the coming of Jesus in our spiritual bodies. Don't get carried away with the fairy-tales of the church world today, or you will have sealed your fate with "the mark of the beast" & not the Seal of God ( Revelation 9:4 ).
When a preacher tells you that you do not have to study Revelation or some other part of God's Word, they are trying to seal your mind into taking the mark of the beast and it robs you of the Seal of God.
There is a "sealing" time coming and it is going on right now. We are living in the final generation which started with the Jews reestablished their homeland.
Revelation 9:4 "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."
This is the instructions that God is giving to Satan and his fallen angels when they are coming to this earth. Your "mind" is in your forehead, and "to be sealed" is what you put in your mind that prepares you for what is coming. If you think in your mind that the rapture is true, than you have taken a lie, or "seal" of Satan the beast, and sealed your mind with his mark.
However if you have the plan of the entire Word of God in your mind then you know that you will never see Jesus Christ in the flesh, but the one claiming to be Christ is a fake and Satan, in the role of Antichrist. You need the entire Word of God to protect you from that in your Mind, for in it are all the events that allow you to keep yourself from being deceived or tempted ( Revelation 3:10 ) by the many false winds of doctrine that are going around today.
We will live the entire Millennium age of Christ's kingdom right here on earth in our spiritual/incorruptible body. Jesus is coming back to earth to stay at the seventh trumpet, and He is not leaving. If you are saved under the blood of Christ, you will never leave or be separated again from Him, ever. Those that don't make it will be turned to ashes after the Judgment.
I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
Through this entire chapter Paul has brought to our attention that we have two bodies. The flesh body will die at some point in time and the spiritual body which houses our spirit/soul will live on after death. "Mortal must put on immortality" applies only to the soul, for all flesh will be gone at death, or at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. So immortality applies only to the soul , even in the incorruptible body the sting of death is still present IF that soul has not received eternal life. Immortality for the soul in the Millennium age is only for those souls that did not worship Satan, and take on his name, and the number of the beast.
But the dead, in other words, those that took the mark, lived not again, meaning did not obtain eternal life, until after the end of that 1000 year reign of Christ, if they overcome Satan.
So the flesh body must be put aside before we put on our incorruptible body that will not age through the entire Millennium age ( The Lords Day ( Revelation 1: 10 ; Revelation 1: 1-7 ) .
The Word "Mortal" again means "liable to die". The object of this verse is the body, and the corruptible flesh body must be changed into the body that doesn't grow old. All through this fifteenth chapter we have documented that Christ is a live, and that he lives, and it is for that reason that we are Christians. It would be senseless to be Christians if Christ did not come out of the tomb.
"This mortal must put on immortality," again means that the soul that is mortality must also put on immortality. Christ taught in Matthew 10:25-28.
Matthew 10:25 "It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his Lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of the household?"
It is sufficient that the pupil become like his teacher. Our purpose is to keep on studying to where you can have people rely on what you say. When Christ walked the earth, if they called Him Beelzebub [Satan, or lord of the flies], know also that they will also say that you are of Satan. Jesus is telling us to not worry about it, we will have the victory.
Matthew 10:26 "Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.".
God has already revealed everything that you will face in His Word, and there will be nothing that you will go through that should be a surprise to you. You can expect what is prophesied to come your way, as well as the protection that will be given you by God. The thing that is important is that you are obedient to God's Word, and His Son, and keep committed to serve Him.
Matthew 10:27 "What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops."
Those things that are revealed to you by your studies, and in the night are the things that you tell others about. Jesus is telling His disciples that those thing that they here Him teaching about, those are the things to tell others about. The "Preaching from the housetops", means "to spread the Word."
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Man can kill your body but no man, not even Satan can kill your soul. To "destroy" is to cause you "to perish" or "cease to exist". It is only God that can judge your soul to hell fire and that comes after the judgment day. "Mortal" means "liable to die", and whether your soul dies or not is left up to God's judgment.
I Corinthians 15:54 "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in Victory." "
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First I want to say great reply, I can tell you are sincere. PraiseYahweh! I want also to reply so lets reason togather.
This I agree with but from a slightly different perspective:
A physical body can not enter the kingdom, so we must be transformed into the un-corruptable spirit body.
Actually during the 1000 year reign there will still be humans here, but outside the kingdom of Yahweh:
Isayah 66:22-23, "For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before Me, says Yahweh: so will your seed and your name remain. And it will come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says Yahweh."
I agree with al you say except the red part: as 1 Cor 15 says: "but we will all be changed" 15:54, "So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."
Then will be brought to pass: this is a future transformation
I agree with you here, also here is some info about "Project Blue Beam" possibly the biggest deception ever planned:
The pre-trib doctrine was never preached before around 1830, and is in place to get people to accepth the anti-Messiah, they will be told "meeting Christ in the air is not literal, it's is a higher state of consciousness." The UN has been publishing magazines about thier comin "cosmic christ" for 40 years or something, called "Matreyu." (sp) You need to look into "PROJECT BLUE BEAM," they plan on using hologram technology to fake the second coming, and this is no cracker-jack attempt, it real and it's real serious. Many will fall for it if it happens.
Here are some links
CNN Hologram TV First - YouTube
CNN Will I Am Hologram, First time on TV - YouTube
223 - The New Age Agenda - Amazing Discoveries TV
625 - The Coming Cosmic Christ / Secrets of the Ages - John Triplett - YouTube
Project Blue Beam By Serge Monast (1994)
This is not true: 1 Cor 15:52, "...For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible..."
These dead are raised incorruptible, the spiritually dead in Messiah will be raised to the lake of fire
"Raised" again means to "become awakened" - Im not saying or even implying this is what you mean becasue from your words I dont think? you are into this following teaching: New Age teaching says : "meeting Christ in the air is not literal, it's is a higher state of consciousness." This is going to be used in conjuction with the false pre-trib lie to nake people fall for the anti-Messiah.
This topic with mark of Beast and the mark of Yahweh is a whole other topic, I dont want to derail, we could get into that on another thread, PM me and I will revive an olde thread I started so you can see my views and them respond.
You may be right or may not here, I dont see anything in Scripture leadinf me to think for or against this, just that those meeting the Messiah in the air will be changed in thin manner.
I agree with all you said here excet people will still be alive, the verse I quoted earlier (Isa 66:22-23) and there is another one here:
Zecharyah 14:12, "Their flesh will consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes will consume away in their sockets, and their tongues will consume away in their mouths." 16-17, "Then it will come to pass that everyone who survives of all the nations which came against Yerusalem, will also go up from year to year to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, by keeping the Feasts Yahweh Shammah. And it will be that if any families of the earth will not come up to Yerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, then upon them will be no rain." 20, "In that day there will even be engraved on the bells of the horses: Qodesh La-Yahweh; (Holy to Yahweh;) and the pots in Yahweh's House will be like the bowls before the altar."
1 Cor 15:52, "the dead will be raised incorruptible"
You know the truth of how this does not happen until the LAST TRUMPET, it is impossible for them to return with Yahshua because they are already with Himm if they are to be raised upon His return. And again the dead are the lireral dead, as the spiritually dead are not in the 1st resurrection, the spiritually dead are in the resurrection after satan is loosed after the 1000 yr reign, the resurrection of the lake of fire.
1 Thess 4:15, "For we say this to you by the word of Yahweh, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Savior will by no means precede those who are sleep."
All this means is in that split second, the dead are first then the alive when Yahshua returns will be transformed.
Ok i knew it was 1830s but I didnt know the name of that person, thank you.
But it sosent say that it says : "shall not prevent them which are asleep."
You yourself said : The dead in Christ shall rise first for they are already with Him. If they are resurrected upon His return how are they "already with Him?" Brother this makes no sense and is not Scriptual. The dead in the Messiah are those whose bodies are dead, but have completed their "race for the crown," when they are raised, that is when they recieve their crown. (Yahweh willing we will be included in this!)
I dont follow the "one in the center" (preachers) brother, I love your zeal!
To me I feel like your making my point here IT DOES NOT HAPPEN UNTIL HIS RETURN, I think the difference is where you say like "we have a fleah and a spirit body" at same time. But this is not Scriptual, also 1 Cor 15 says we will be transformed, notgetting out of one car and getting into another, but a "morphing" into a spirit body.
I think the mark is deeper than this, I thikn the pre-trib lie is just to "aid" the accepance of the servant of sin. I will PM you a link to my mark of beast thread.
I agree. You said : "You need the entire Word of God to protect you from that in your Mind" Please open your Scriptures and read Exodus 13:9.
This I agree with but from a slightly different perspective:
A physical body can not enter the kingdom, so we must be transformed into the un-corruptable spirit body.
Actually during the 1000 year reign there will still be humans here, but outside the kingdom of Yahweh:
Isayah 66:22-23, "For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before Me, says Yahweh: so will your seed and your name remain. And it will come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says Yahweh."
I agree with al you say except the red part: as 1 Cor 15 says: "but we will all be changed" 15:54, "So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."
Then will be brought to pass: this is a future transformation
I agree with you here, also here is some info about "Project Blue Beam" possibly the biggest deception ever planned:
The pre-trib doctrine was never preached before around 1830, and is in place to get people to accepth the anti-Messiah, they will be told "meeting Christ in the air is not literal, it's is a higher state of consciousness." The UN has been publishing magazines about thier comin "cosmic christ" for 40 years or something, called "Matreyu." (sp) You need to look into "PROJECT BLUE BEAM," they plan on using hologram technology to fake the second coming, and this is no cracker-jack attempt, it real and it's real serious. Many will fall for it if it happens.
Here are some links
CNN Hologram TV First - YouTube
CNN Will I Am Hologram, First time on TV - YouTube
223 - The New Age Agenda - Amazing Discoveries TV
625 - The Coming Cosmic Christ / Secrets of the Ages - John Triplett - YouTube
Project Blue Beam By Serge Monast (1994)
This is not true: 1 Cor 15:52, "...For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible..."
These dead are raised incorruptible, the spiritually dead in Messiah will be raised to the lake of fire
"Raised" again means to "become awakened" - Im not saying or even implying this is what you mean becasue from your words I dont think? you are into this following teaching: New Age teaching says : "meeting Christ in the air is not literal, it's is a higher state of consciousness." This is going to be used in conjuction with the false pre-trib lie to nake people fall for the anti-Messiah.
This topic with mark of Beast and the mark of Yahweh is a whole other topic, I dont want to derail, we could get into that on another thread, PM me and I will revive an olde thread I started so you can see my views and them respond.
You may be right or may not here, I dont see anything in Scripture leadinf me to think for or against this, just that those meeting the Messiah in the air will be changed in thin manner.
I agree with all you said here excet people will still be alive, the verse I quoted earlier (Isa 66:22-23) and there is another one here:
Zecharyah 14:12, "Their flesh will consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes will consume away in their sockets, and their tongues will consume away in their mouths." 16-17, "Then it will come to pass that everyone who survives of all the nations which came against Yerusalem, will also go up from year to year to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, by keeping the Feasts Yahweh Shammah. And it will be that if any families of the earth will not come up to Yerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, then upon them will be no rain." 20, "In that day there will even be engraved on the bells of the horses: Qodesh La-Yahweh; (Holy to Yahweh;) and the pots in Yahweh's House will be like the bowls before the altar."
1 Cor 15:52, "the dead will be raised incorruptible"
You know the truth of how this does not happen until the LAST TRUMPET, it is impossible for them to return with Yahshua because they are already with Himm if they are to be raised upon His return. And again the dead are the lireral dead, as the spiritually dead are not in the 1st resurrection, the spiritually dead are in the resurrection after satan is loosed after the 1000 yr reign, the resurrection of the lake of fire.
1 Thess 4:15, "For we say this to you by the word of Yahweh, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Savior will by no means precede those who are sleep."
All this means is in that split second, the dead are first then the alive when Yahshua returns will be transformed.
Ok i knew it was 1830s but I didnt know the name of that person, thank you.
But it sosent say that it says : "shall not prevent them which are asleep."
You yourself said : The dead in Christ shall rise first for they are already with Him. If they are resurrected upon His return how are they "already with Him?" Brother this makes no sense and is not Scriptual. The dead in the Messiah are those whose bodies are dead, but have completed their "race for the crown," when they are raised, that is when they recieve their crown. (Yahweh willing we will be included in this!)
I dont follow the "one in the center" (preachers) brother, I love your zeal!
To me I feel like your making my point here IT DOES NOT HAPPEN UNTIL HIS RETURN, I think the difference is where you say like "we have a fleah and a spirit body" at same time. But this is not Scriptual, also 1 Cor 15 says we will be transformed, notgetting out of one car and getting into another, but a "morphing" into a spirit body.
I think the mark is deeper than this, I thikn the pre-trib lie is just to "aid" the accepance of the servant of sin. I will PM you a link to my mark of beast thread.
I agree. You said : "You need the entire Word of God to protect you from that in your Mind" Please open your Scriptures and read Exodus 13:9.
I think we agree on ALOT, but I see the main difference here in the "2 bodies" to the "transformation," views. In Mt 10:28, satan cant take our eternal life, only Yahweh can give or deny our eternal being, no man can take our eternal being, I think yahshua was saying, who cares about anybody but Yahweh, Yahweh is the only one we should fear, reverence, follow, obey, worship, etc. HalleluYAHWEH!
I would like to hear you views on my replies.
I would like to hear you views on my replies.