Question for Hizikyah, or Others

[secularhermit]

Are these things true*

http://christianchat.com/blogs/secu...41695-rare-things-helped-me-see-photo0459.jpg

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/panin2.htm]Ivan Panin's

 

[kennethcadwell]

Didn't Jesus say "he who has my commands and keeps them sometimes is the one who loves me"? Wait a minute...somethins wrong here.

Exactly my point, as the Lord does not say He who only does part of what I say and only loves me here or there has eternal life.
He said those who love Him will obey and keep all of His teachings, not part, not half, not only a few, and not none at all. He said obey and do all My teachings/commands.

 

[dcontroversal]

Hebrews nowhere in it says that if one looses salvation they can never regain it.
It only speaks of those who like to live in their willful sins and refuse to give them up, as in the love them more then the Lord. Those will refuse to repent and come back to Him, but in no way does the bible not even Hebrews say coming back in repentance is impossible.

It is IMPOSSIBLE TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE<---Hebrews says this...it contradicts your last statement....

Hebrews 6:4-6 Those who have tasted of the heavenly gift that fall away cannot be renewed unto repentance because the openly put Christ to shame and back on the cross......

If you can loose salvation..which you said you did..then you, by your own doctrine are bound for hell....YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH ways...either it is eternal or you can loose it and NOT GET IT BACK

 

[tribesman]

Accepting that all this being said is true, then WHY did the Apostle Paul BELIEVE it NECESSARY to warn them at all?

As they can never lose what they have...............there should be no warning necessary...........only makes sense.

Paul should have said: Oh foolish Galatians, worry not your wee little heads, you can not lose what you have gained no matter what you do...........so, go forth and sing praises.

AND LEFT IT AT THAT.............right????????

Generally, in all epistles, he was basically addressing a mixed congregation. Some souls were established in the faith, others were drifting away and had to get back right again and yet others were plants or tares. It is for all to listen to, but only believers will heed it.

 

[dcontroversal]

Got to respectfully disagree. In the clause, “but have eternal life” have (echō) is a present active subjunctive verb. This verb form indicates linear or continual action.





If "to believe/trust" in this verse were in the aorist or perfect tense, it could mean a one time action in the past with continuing results. However, since 'to believe" is a present active participle, the emphasis is on a continuing action.

Thus the one trusting is having eternal life.

You can disagree all you want and be wrong... the Greek word is ἔχῃ NOT ECHO and means a present continuing result from a past completed action.....!

 

[newbirth]

It is IMPOSSIBLE TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE<---Hebrews says this...it contradicts your last statement....

Hebrews 6:4-6 Those who have tasted of the heavenly gift that fall away cannot be renewed unto repentance because the openly put Christ to shame and back on the cross......

If you can loose salvation..which you said you did..then you, by your own doctrine are bound for hell....YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH ways...either it is eternal or you can loose it and NOT GET IT BACK

bro it simply means you you cannot go back to repent for the sins you are already forgiven of... there is only one sacrifice for sin...which wipes away your sins at repentance and baptism....any sin after that must be dealt with by our advocate...before the throne of grace...if a man does not confess and stop doing those sins...it means he is not in Christ walking after the Spirit.......and is in danger of hell fire...

 

[Kaycie]

the greek word for 'believe' is actually the same greek word for 'faith' being used as a verb...literally when you are saying 'i believe' in greek you would be saying 'i faith'...

I agree, but I was looking at the word 'in'. He said something like it is not in but into, and meant that there is another step to take other than believing- like believing was the door, but more action is needed like opening the door and stepping inside.

 

[Sirk]

Exactly my point, as the Lord does not say He who only does part of what I say and only loves me here or there has eternal life.
He said those who love Him will obey and keep all of His teachings, not part, not half, not only a few, and not none at all. He said obey and do all My teachings/commands.

Then again it is impossible for you to do all of His commands....is it not?

 

[p_rehbein]

Generally, in all epistles, he was basically addressing a mixed congregation. Some souls were established in the faith, others were drifting away and had to get back right again and yet others were plants or tares. It is for all to listen to, but only believers will heed it.

thank you for your sincere answer............however, therein lies the delima.............IF IT IS TRUE that the believers in this Epistle that Paul wrote to were in NO DANGER of losing their standing with God, for what is gained can not be again lost, THEN it STILL makes the Epistle moot. The "believers" had no need to "heed" Paul's warnings, for they were in no danger. In fact, if one accepts this premise, then the believers COULD HAVE been circumcised to please the Jews who wanted them to be, and it would have made not one whit of difference, for they COULD NOT lose what they had already gained.

If the premise being offered here is true, then this Epistle is moot..........now, I don't believe it is.............but, if we accept the premise being presented............well.

 

[newbirth]

Then again it is impossible for you to do all of His commands....is it not?

if it were he would not have asked...if you think in your mind it is impossible...then you lack faith and have already failed even before you start...

 

[newbirth]

No doubt and I agree.....by their own definition and belief the following is true..

1. If you can loose salvation then you are doomed to hell for ever, because if it can be lost it cannot be regained (Hebrews)
2. They qualify sin into categories and some sins cause you to loose it while others do not
3. They say you have a certain amount of time to change your mind, repent and stay saved
4. They have never lost it or have kept the word of God 100% since they have been saved
5. Their faith, walk and belief is perfect
6. They distinguish between works.... a work is a work is a work.....period
7. They deny Galatians and adding works (any work) to faith = gospel of a different kind with no power to save
8. They deny the perfect faith of Christ which is where our salvation and justification stands
9. They deny hundreds of scriptures in context that teach eternal security, eternal life, eternal justification, eternal sanctification based UPON JESUS and what he has done
10. The take the word salvation and make every place that it is used soul salvation
11. They ultimately trust into their abilities, their works, their walk over the faith of Christ
12. They deny words and verb tenses that PROOVE eternal security

And on and on and on

this is the gospel according to dcontroversal

the moment you believe ....you have eternal security........it cannot be lost...no matter what you do ........you can do anything and are still saved...whether good or evil....all your sins have been paid up in advance....your faith must be alone.. without works because a work is a work and work is of the law and the law produces sin...there is no need to walk in righteousness....that is self...you must walk in faith without works...in the faith of Christ....

 

[BradC]

Accepting that all this being said is true, then WHY did the Apostle Paul BELIEVE it NECESSARY to warn them at all?

As they can never lose what they have...............there should be no warning necessary...........only makes sense.

Paul should have said: Oh foolish Galatians, worry not your wee little heads, you can not lose what you have gained no matter what you do...........so, go forth and sing praises.

AND LEFT IT AT THAT.............right????????

They had learned how to be justified and live under grace and this was the liberty they had under the gospel that Paul preached to them. Now false brethren had come in to spy out their liberty and to pervert the gospel and bring them back into bondage. This was the removal from the liberty of grace unto another gospel that Paul marveled at. It happened so soon (so quickly) and he was not happy about it. He addressed their jusification and not their salvation, only their walk and growth in the gospel of grace in Christ. These believers were free to walk in the grace of God that liberated them from having to keep the law for righteousness.

These false brethren was trying to pervert Paul's gospel and to bring them back to their old roots unto another gospel, which was not another but a perversion of the gospel of Christ. These false brethren were adding to the grace of God that justified these believers and were adding to that by having them keep certain requirements (works of the law) they were familiar with according to the law. This was the warning that Paul was giving to them in (Gal 3). These believers needed to stay the course in the grace of Christ because these false brethren were trying to add the works of the law to their justification to condition their salvation. These false brethren were perverting the gospel by teaching them that the works of the law is the legal way for them to be justified and not by grace through faith in Christ. Paul explains this very thoroughly in (ch.3) and would that these be cut off.

 

[newbirth]

Generally, in all epistles, he was basically addressing a mixed congregation. Some souls were established in the faith, others were drifting away and had to get back right again and yet others were plants or tares. It is for all to listen to, but only believers will heed it.

go back and look at how he addressed the church....it is you who make distinctions...the idea is to let every man judge himself.....those who you say were drifting away ...what were they drifting away from??? and those you call tares who made then tares....?....two roads are set before all men ...the broad and the narrow....the power to choose is in the hands of man.....

 

[tribesman]

Equally hard when one says that a truly regenerate child, sealed with His Spirit can in effect become unborn again, then upon repentance become reborn only to fall away to an unregenerate unborn state until once again they repent unto another rebirth ad infinitum ad nauseum.

Sad but true. All those who hold that one can lose one's salvation consequently must hold to that there is something one can do to gain one's salvation, again and again even. They must hold to a conditionalism which places the condition for salvation on the work of the sinner NOT the work and the person of Christ alone. What a damnable anti-christian doctrine of devils! I believe God hates such doctrines. Amen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It was not just that hypocrisy of not eating with them in front of other Jews, it was also because of the false teaching of some that lead them away to justification by the law. You can see that by verses 14-16 as they were trying to force gentile believers to live by the law as they did.

nothing in that passage has a thing to do with Peter trying to tell people to be justified by law or anyone else for that matter.
Do you really think the leader of the Jerusalem church would do such a thing or allow it?

It is one thing to act like a jew and offend gentiles by doing it, it is another to teach you must do those things to be saved, Peter was not doing that or condoning it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Got to respectfully disagree. In the clause, “but have eternal life” have (echō) is a present active subjunctive verb. This verb form indicates linear or continual action.





If "to believe/trust" in this verse were in the aorist or perfect tense, it could mean a one time action in the past with continuing results. However, since 'to believe" is a present active participle, the emphasis is on a continuing action.

Thus the one trusting is having eternal life.

the words never perish are in the aorist tense.

Jesus is saying, that whoever believes in him, will never die (the jist of the passage, and true meaning) and is currently possessing eternal life.

the problems with your view is two fold.

1. Never dieing is as you say, something which occurred in the past, with continuing results.
2. Present tense ownership of a life Jesus called eternal. it does not matter if it is just present tense or not what matter is what he said about it, ETERNAL is what he called it, thus it fits with the aorist subject of never dieing, which means will live forever. If it could ever be lost, Jesus would never have called it eternal life.

the meaning of the verse is simple. to whoever reads these words, if you have faith in christ, you have past from a state of death to life, this life being eternal, you will never come to a state of being dead again.

there is no other way to interpret it.

 

[dcontroversal]

this is the gospel according to dcontroversal

the moment you believe ....you have eternal security........it cannot be lost...no matter what you do ........you can do anything and are still saved...whether good or evil....all your sins have been paid up in advance....your faith must be alone.. without works because a work is a work and work is of the law and the law produces sin...there is no need to walk in righteousness....that is self...you must walk in faith without works...in the faith of Christ....

No this is the gospel according to those who lack understanding of ETERNAL SECURITY......

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

No doubt and I agree.....by their own definition and belief the following is true..

1. If you can loose salvation then you are doomed to hell for ever, because if it can be lost it cannot be regained (Hebrews)
2. They qualify sin into categories and some sins cause you to loose it while others do not
3. They say you have a certain amount of time to change your mind, repent and stay saved
4. They have never lost it or have kept the word of God 100% since they have been saved
5. Their faith, walk and belief is perfect
6. They distinguish between works.... a work is a work is a work.....period
7. They deny Galatians and adding works (any work) to faith = gospel of a different kind with no power to save
8. They deny the perfect faith of Christ which is where our salvation and justification stands
9. They deny hundreds of scriptures in context that teach eternal security, eternal life, eternal justification, eternal sanctification based UPON JESUS and what he has done
10. The take the word salvation and make every place that it is used soul salvation
11. They ultimately trust into their abilities, their works, their walk over the faith of Christ
12. They deny words and verb tenses that PROOVE eternal security

And on and on and on

 

[Sirk]

I'm playing devils advocate here but please...can someone answer me this.

There is a continuity found throughout scripture. Meaning that it cannot contradict itself. That being said....wasn't Noah's boat a foreshadowing of the coming messiah....and if it was.....didn't he have to continue to build his boat until the floods came? A half finished boat don't float.

The other thing I find in the gospel is its utter simplicity yet the utmost of complexity. Based on that....Doesn't God have within His righteousness judgement the authority to judge EACH man according to the man's understanding or lack thereof?

Everyone keeps arguing about whether someone can lose their salvation or not, when I would argue that you either have it...or you do not....and the ones so worried about whether someone else does or not, might not.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

According to the law, there was an atonement for unintentional sins, however, there wasn't for defiant sins.

[SUP]Numbers 15:28 [/SUP]The priest shall make atonement before the Lord for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven. [SUP]29 [/SUP]You shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the sons of Israel and for the alien who sojourns among them. [SUP]30 [/SUP]But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the Lord; and that person shall be cut off from among his people. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Because he has despised the word of the Lord and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him.’”

The law had sacrifices for many sins, and named them off for each type of sacrifice.

The once a year sacrifice (day of atonement) took care of all sin, intentional, defiant, or not.

Lev 16: [SUP]16 [/SUP]So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for ALL their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. [SUP]22 [/SUP]The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord.

If one reads hebrews, this is what Jesus did on the cross.

 

[Splagna]

You can disagree all you want and be wrong... the Greek word is ἔχῃ NOT ECHO and means a present continuing result from a past completed action.....!

No sir, the error in this disagreement belongs totally to you. Echo is an English transliteration of the Greek ἔχω (1st person singular is usually used when referring to a Greek verb). As used in John 3:16 ἔχῃ is parsed: 3rd Person Singular Present Active Subjunctive.

If you don't believe me, check out Blueletterbible.com or Bible Hub and you'll find the correct parsing.

For example from John 3:16 on Bible Hub: εχη verb - present active subjunctive - third person singular
echo ekh'-o: (used in certain tenses only) a primary verb; to hold

As noted before a present active verb represents linear or continuous action and does not reflect "present continuing result from a past completed action" as you're suggesting!!! ἔχῃ is not an aorist.

For what it's worth ἔχῃ is subjunctive because it is part of a ἵνα (hina) clause.