QUESTION

[Katy-follower]

The tongue is small, but it does the most harm. It cannot be trusted, and the scriptures say that no man can tame it.

It is a heart issue. We know that all things flow from the heart. The tongue takes what's in our heart and attacks with words. Not only does it have the ability to speak evil words, but also deceive us by making junk food taste so great, lol, so continual eating of what the tongue says is great will send you into an early grave! The tongue wants pizza (and red wine), lol. You can however train it by exposing it to healthy food, so your taste buds will eventually change as a result.


James 3:1-12: "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. Indeed, we put bits in horses’ mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body. Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires. Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things.

See how great a forest a little fire kindles! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh"


What's in the heart does come out through words and actions. Someone could say they love me but it would just be empty words if their actions said otherwise. And also the love was never true/real if there was never an action that followed it. Actions do reveal the heart...

Just like the debating on this site over faith and works. Well, those who love God WILL obey. The obedience comes out of love for Him. You don't obey first. Some believe obedience is necessary for salvation, but as we know, obedience follows. I'll show my existing faith by my works, rather than a dead non existent faith that produces nothing as a result.

Sorry, went off a bit there


Proverbs 4:23: "Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it"

Jeremiah 17:9-10: "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings"

Psalm 34:13: "Keep your tongue from evil, And your lips from speaking deceit"

Proverbs 12:18: "There is one who speaks like the piercings of a sword, But the tongue of the wise promotes health"

Proverbs 18:21: "Death and life are in the power of the tongue (words spoken), And those who love it will eat its fruit"

 

[beta]

Perhaps I am not being clear about what I am looking for. What I want to know is can you explain the relationship between the universe as actuality and the representative form of the universe in the consciousness? Can we know the truth about our world by our experiences within it?

Just read your OP and a few posts following and would say 'NO we dont'....that is why scripture says 'not to lean on our own understanding'....because we'll fall over !!!

 

[slave]

So, are you saying if Helen Keller became literally numb and lost her sense of taste and smell, then the universe disappears? Or she ceases to be? I will give you she would have lost two of three skills much needed to walk, (sight and feeling), but if she could walk, when she hit a wall, she'd know it, even if she couldn't feel it.

Are spiritual matters real or not? You cannot ascertain them by your five senses. God has put us into Christ; we are crucified with Him. All our sins were borne by Him. Today Christ is resurrected and is in the Holy Spirit. But can we substantiate any of these with our five senses? They are useless in this respect. When it comes to these matters, the eyes are blind, the ears deaf, the nose numb, the tongue flat, and all the senses dull. If we merely exercise our five senses, we have to conclude that God does not exist, that there is no Christ, and that neither forgiveness of sins nor redemption of sinners is substantial, that there is no such thing as a new life, and that all spiritual matters are mere fantasies.

The fact is that the substance is there, but the substantiating ability is absent.Suppose Helen Keller stands up and proclaims, "There is no such thing as color. All the beautiful sights and scenes that people talk about are illusionary. All these descriptions of pictures as lively and vivid are merely abstract nonentities." You will not be surprised at hearing such words. You realize that she lacks the ability of seeing. To her all those things are genuinely nonexistent. Her theory is the theory of the blind. Only the blind approve it and justify it.

You may think that this is a joke. But there are those who would criticize others, saying, "Listen to all this talk about spiritual matters, about forgiveness of sins by Christ, resurrection, and the receiving of a new life. They are just a collection of empty words." The fact is that spiritual matters do exist, but these people lack something. They are blind in regard to spiritual matters. What they lack is what they should have but do not have; it is that sense which substantiates all spiritual matters. Without that sense, everything spiritual is darkness to them.This sense is faith.

Faith makes everything real and clear spiritually.The material universe is real. So is the spiritual world. However, you need a special faculty to see and hear the spiritual world. This faculty or sense is the faith that we mentioned. Faith is the substantiation of things hoped for, and the conviction of things not seen. Though they are unseen, they are manifested to us in a tangible way. How can a seemingly abstract spiritual item be substantiated in us? It is by no other way than faith. Do we have this faith? If we do, all these will become real to us. The five senses substantiate everything in the physical world to us. Faith is the faculty which substantiates everything in the spiritual world to us. It is a sense in addition to our other five senses.

The question is whether or not we are exercising it. If Oldhermit is sitting in front of me. He becomes real to me through my eyes. However, I can testify to you that the Christ within me is more real than Mr. Oldhermit. Not only is His indwelling a reality; His redemption, His crucifixion of my old man, and my resurrection with Him are also real. I am more sure of them than of Mr. Oldhermit. Within me there is an organ which enables me to perceive all of these. They are undeniable and certain. Not only I, but countless other Christians also have seen them. They are being made real through the unique organ of faith.

 

[Depleted]

Whatever! Yea, he"s stupid for letting the shoe drop. Is that the best you've got? Give me something of substance? And is it trump's fault that teresa lost the election to a nut job?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Hm, that's odd. You have all kinds of common sense and good thinking when it comes to talking about the Lord, and yet when you slip into politics it becomes that?

Is God a different compartment for you than politics? Because right now you're sounding more like the mistaken belief that God is a middle-class, American Republican, rather than God is, and therefore he is sovereign.

Play politics with the rest of the kiddies in the News forum. I don't play that game, and this thread never was about American Republicans.

 

[Depleted]

Sorry to digress the thread, just wanted to add as well that in the London attack,
1 was from Pakistan but brought up in UK
1 was Moroccan/Italian
1 claimed to be both Moroccan and Libyan
1 of them was carrying an ID card from the Republic of Ireland

London attack: What we know so far - BBC News


plus it seems that some of their terrorist influence was from a cleric who
lives in the US

Reports: Dearborn cleric radicalized London attacker


So the issue of immigrants is not straight forward at all, which countries do we
keep out exactly. Trump doesn't seem to understand the global situation, or
the influence of global social media.

I dont think we live in an age any more, where we can say keep people from
county A out and we will all be safe etc. It's a sad sign of the times.

Heads up on American newspapers. That's not the first time I've seen American newspapers posting about that Dearborn cleric, so it might be something. BUT it is an American newspaper, so verifying sources isn't that important anymore. Propaganda is. Trust our news like you were trust a street-hustler.

Also, America is a nation of immigrants. Americans with common sense embrace immigration. We also embrace vetting. Obviously we have our fair share of loons, but refugees coming from war-torn Sharia Law countries really are being infiltrated with terrorists joining their ranks. So are Sharia-Law loving rapists and muggers. It's already infecting our country like Hepatitis C -- spreading slowly at first, but it will become more deadly once the infection spreads. I've been watching as my nation teeters toward communism. I will not watch if it teeters toward Sharia Law. I will die fighting that one, even if the most damage I can cause is one Sharia-Law-loving guy to become a eunuch for the rest of his life.

 

[Depleted]

Are spiritual matters real or not? You cannot ascertain them by your five senses. God has put us into Christ; we are crucified with Him. All our sins were borne by Him. Today Christ is resurrected and is in the Holy Spirit. But can we substantiate any of these with our five senses? They are useless in this respect. When it comes to these matters, the eyes are blind, the ears deaf, the nose numb, the tongue flat, and all the senses dull. If we merely exercise our five senses, we have to conclude that God does not exist, that there is no Christ, and that neither forgiveness of sins nor redemption of sinners is substantial, that there is no such thing as a new life, and that all spiritual matters are mere fantasies.

The fact is that the substance is there, but the substantiating ability is absent.Suppose Helen Keller stands up and proclaims, "There is no such thing as color. All the beautiful sights and scenes that people talk about are illusionary. All these descriptions of pictures as lively and vivid are merely abstract nonentities." You will not be surprised at hearing such words. You realize that she lacks the ability of seeing. To her all those things are genuinely nonexistent. Her theory is the theory of the blind. Only the blind approve it and justify it.

You may think that this is a joke. But there are those who would criticize others, saying, "Listen to all this talk about spiritual matters, about forgiveness of sins by Christ, resurrection, and the receiving of a new life. They are just a collection of empty words." The fact is that spiritual matters do exist, but these people lack something. They are blind in regard to spiritual matters. What they lack is what they should have but do not have; it is that sense which substantiates all spiritual matters. Without that sense, everything spiritual is darkness to them.This sense is faith.

Faith makes everything real and clear spiritually.The material universe is real. So is the spiritual world. However, you need a special faculty to see and hear the spiritual world. This faculty or sense is the faith that we mentioned. Faith is the substantiation of things hoped for, and the conviction of things not seen. Though they are unseen, they are manifested to us in a tangible way. How can a seemingly abstract spiritual item be substantiated in us? It is by no other way than faith. Do we have this faith? If we do, all these will become real to us. The five senses substantiate everything in the physical world to us. Faith is the faculty which substantiates everything in the spiritual world to us. It is a sense in addition to our other five senses.

The question is whether or not we are exercising it. If Oldhermit is sitting in front of me. He becomes real to me through my eyes. However, I can testify to you that the Christ within me is more real than Mr. Oldhermit. Not only is His indwelling a reality; His redemption, His crucifixion of my old man, and my resurrection with Him are also real. I am more sure of them than of Mr. Oldhermit. Within me there is an organ which enables me to perceive all of these. They are undeniable and certain. Not only I, but countless other Christians also have seen them. They are being made real through the unique organ of faith.

Yes! Most certainly God is provable. Not only is he provable, he has been proven.

I have seen no reaction from a bee sting, when my last reaction to a bee sting was three weeks unable to walk.

I have experienced a self-absorbed teenager turn, over night, into a God-absorbed teenager in all senses.

I have watched God work out the impossible and turned it into things worth glorifying him for.

I have read the archaeologist's articles on places the nonbelievers say never existed that proved those places not only existed, but failed just the way God said they would.

I have heard of the reports on how a dead guy seemed to have walked out of his own tomb and was then seen by hundreds. Some even ate with him. One touched the wounds that killed him.

Yes, God is experiential. If he were not, we would have had an excuse.

Romans 1:[FONT=&quot]18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.[/FONT]

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Luke 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Ephesians 4:17,18
Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

 

[garee]

Yes! Most certainly God is provable. Not only is he provable, he has been proven.

I have seen no reaction from a bee sting, when my last reaction to a bee sting was three weeks unable to walk.

I have experienced a self-absorbed teenager turn, over night, into a God-absorbed teenager in all senses.

I have watched God work out the impossible and turned it into things worth glorifying him for.

I have read the archaeologist's articles on places the nonbelievers say never existed that proved those places not only existed, but failed just the way God said they would.

I have heard of the reports on how a dead guy seemed to have walked out of his own tomb and was then seen by hundreds. Some even ate with him. One touched the wounds that killed him.

Yes, God is experiential. If he were not, we would have had an excuse.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

I would offer we walk by faith, the unseen eternal and not by sight the temporal as that seen. All of the saints died having not received the promise. God can heal an unbeliever in the same way as one who does walk by faith or send rain on a believer in the same way as one who does not have faith. It is not evidence a person has the Holy Spirit

It was the apostate Jew that required a sign, like a healing or some kind of blessing before they would believe, while the Greeks sought after the philosophies of men.. Signs are for those who believe not (no faith)…… prophecy for those who do believe to the salvation of their soul..

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

God cannot be proven by what the eyes see or one of the five corrupted sences to include a temporal healing. Again we walk by faith the eternal not seen, and not after the rudiments of this corrupted world.the temporal as that seen

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men,after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

[oldhermit]

Well, since my thread has been hijacked and has deteriorated into utter nonsense, I think I'll just leave it with you and go do something else.

 

[mj007]

Senses are simply the way we experience, and physically observe the world.

 

[JGIG]

What do you think our five senses tell us about the true nature of reality? Can we depend on our senses to tell all the truth about reality? Let me hear what you think about this?

Perhaps I am not being clear about what I am looking for. What I want to know is can you explain the relationship between the universe as actuality and the representative form of the universe in the consciousness? Can we know the truth about our world by our experiences within it?

Your question is formidably broad, but here are some thoughts that came to mind as I pondered it.

Our God-given senses are gifts. They enable us to survive in this world - and not only to survive, but to enjoy God's wonderful creation, as well.

Will we see everything related to matter in our universe accurately this side of Eternity? Probably not. But I believe that God gives us the ability to learn about, learn from, and appreciate His amazing creation even within our limited abilities as part of His gift of this world to us.

Mankind learning to steward over the world in agriculture, ecology, art, industry, medicine . . . all of these things have evolved over time and overall to the benefit of mankind, political and cultural unrest rooted in sinfulness notwithstanding.

What can/should we stand on as Truth? Here is the paradox of faith - where we place our trust in the spiritual realities of the Work and position of Christ, whether we're interpreting the physical realities of the world in which we live accurately or not.

And then there is the issue of world/spiritual views.

For instance, when a tsunami/earthquake/tornado/hurricane hits a region, some see it as God's judgment on a people, while others see it as a tragic result of living in a fallen world.

Interesting story - a Christian family I know was affected by an areal flood years ago when they were living in another state, and the charismatic local body that they were attending didn't provide aid to them because that local body believed that there was some sort of sin in the family's life and that God was judging them. A more conservative local body mobilized aid, seeing the family's crisis as an opportunity to love them well in their circumstances.

While the physical senses identified the same crisis, the spiritual senses interpreted what was being seen, and each local body responded (or not) - not according to their physical senses, but according to their spiritual senses. While one body may have felt morally/spiritually superior in their stance, the other ministered the love of Christ to the family in crisis in practical ways. Which local body reflected Christ more accurately?

Interestingly enough, most unchurched, unsaved people would not hesitate to assist someone in crisis. How we in the Church have gotten so much in that area wrong is a sad testament.

All that to say: Mankind is not merely a physical being, governed solely by our physical senses. Our minds and spirits are integral parts of the equation - no matter the religion, world view, or education. The OP asks, "Can we depend on just our five senses to 'tell us the truth' about reality?"

While it is an interesting question, I'm not sure that it is a valid question, as we are not merely physical beings, but are equipped by our Creator (whether one believes in Him or not) with minds and spirits which enter into the equation of how we interpret our world, our environment, and our universe.

-JGIG

 

[OneFaith]

What do you think our five senses tell us about the true nature of reality? Can we depend on our senses to tell all the truth about reality? Let me hear what you think about this?

Actually, the spiritual is more of a reality than the physical- it came first, and someday we will be out of our bodies, and all physicality will be destroyed. About a hundred years or less in a physical body does not compare to the reality of an eternity outside of the physical body.

Aside from this, the Bible says that the old physical way of obeying God's laws was only a shadow of the REAL way found in Christ- which is the spiritual way- again proving that the spiritual is more real/reality than the physical. (Colossians 2:17)

 

[Rockrz]

Like to see how that works out for you when you get ill.
Hope you don't get anything serious, as refusal of that scientific medical treatment, could
kill you.

Even refusal of something as simple as antibiotics can lead to sepsis.

That's easy... I don't allow it to come on me! I have not been to the doc in years so I have not had any vaccinations, actually since I was living at home back when I was 18 or 19 which was before I got born again.

God's Word teaches that I have authority over things like this... you do too, but so far you refuse to believe what God said about this.

The difference between you (and many Christians) and me is... when each of us gets opportunity to get ill (like some strange pain, or a lump), you run down to the doctor and pay thousands for tests and treatments and make sure yo life insurance is paid up so your family can put you in the ground and have a little money to live on for a while if the doctors can't do anything about it which happens frequently.

I, on the other hand, run to Jesus in HIS authority based on what He has done and what He has said... and this is what I get:

Psalms 91:14-16
Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

And, I've actually grown to the point where it's very rare for odd things like this to come upon my Body (which is God's property... I have presented my body a LIVING sacrifice (Romans 12:1) not one that is going to die or be sickly) and if they do they are gone within moments cause the God I serve is BIG and has translated me from darkness into the Kingdom of His Son (Colossians 1:13)... so, I'm IN CHRIST and Jesus don't get sick... and neither do I cause I don't have to sine Jesus has already paid for it.

I'm very happy with the results I've been getting having spent zero on medical care for a lot of years now... and I trust yo obama care is paying your bills for you and hopefully you won't get anything the doctors cannot handle so your family won't be needing to cash in that life insurance policy.

I've seen Christians that claimed to believe in divine healing and when they got some lump or pain or whatever it was... they ran to the doc and jumped thru every hoop the doc told them to and sadly they died anyway. A double minded man receives nothing from the Lord (James 1:7)

Going to the doc is kinda like going to vegas... some times ya win, and sometimes ya don't.

 

[garee]

Senses are simply the way we experience, and physically observe the world.

I agree we do not know Christ after the experiences of this world. All saints die having not received the promise.

Experience is not the validator of spiritual truth as that not seen . God's word alone is. The supposed out of the body experiences only show the working of a freshly mind in respect to that not seen, faith. Along with them God sends a strong delusion to those who go beyond that which is written in order to believe the lying sign and wonders by confirming they are not walking by faith.

 

[garee]

The difference between you (and many Christians) and me is... when each of us gets opportunity to get ill (like some strange pain, or a lump), you run down to the doctor and pay thousands for tests and treatments and make sure yo life insurance is paid up so your family can put you in the ground and have a little money to live on for a while if the doctors can't do anything about it which happens frequently

There remains one death per person. God is not served by human hands as a will. You have no authority over illness. God if he so chooses heals an unbeliever in the same way as one who has no faith. By a work of His faith or labor of His love.

I was reminded of the parable of the man that wanted to build bigger barns. Christ called him a fool and said to him today I will take your life.

 

[Rockrz]

There remains one death per person

Yes, each of us will die physically once... does not mean we should be weak and sickly along the way to 80 or 90 years old... or the rapture, whichever occurs first

You have no authority over illness

Calling God's Word a lie... is not going to go well for you.

I was reminded of the parable of the man that wanted to build bigger barns. Christ called him a fool and said to him today I will take your life.

Well, it's a good thing I'm not building bigger barns and I'm going by what God says in His Word as to not be dealing foolishly in life!

It's too bad you don't know what all Jesus paid for us to have and that we are joint heirs with Him.

Maybe you'll learn what's in your Bible someday...

 

[valiant]

Our knowledge gained from the five senses is limited by those senses. Outside the realm of those senses we are lost. Thus we know a dog can hear sounds we will never hear, and smell things that we cannot smell. We touch things which appear solid to us, but are in fact not so to a microbe. What we see is restricted by the type of vision we have. We do not have xray eyes.

The spiritual is only known to us through our very limited spiritual sense. That is why we are probably surrounded by angels and demons and never see them.

 

[popeye]

You are still not understanding what I am asking. What I want to know is, how do we know that we can trust our five sense to tell us certain truths about the world around us? Let me give you an example? When you are looking at any object, how do know that your eyes are telling you the truth about what you are seeing? How do you know fire is hot?

A child believes most everything it's told.

A child needs to be taught,at least most,to ask questions.

But faith is ,for the most part,outside of the senses,and is more real than what you are referring to.

 

[slave]

Our knowledge gained from the five senses is limited by those senses. Outside the realm of those senses we are lost. Thus we know a dog can hear sounds we will never hear, and smell things that we cannot smell. We touch things which appear solid to us, but are in fact not so to a microbe. What we see is restricted by the type of vision we have. We do not have xray eyes.

The spiritual is only known to us through our very limited spiritual sense. That is why we are probably surrounded by angels and demons and never see them.

I agree except in your last part I would state it: "Our spiritual reality (found in our person and thru our righteousness) transformed by His unlimited wisdom gives us understanding thru faith of what He created, (that being Spiritual truth; which is truth). Therefore, I , as His Saint, do not doubt angels and demons exist (this is a real disposition in me). For despite our 5 senses our faith is a sense by which we become real in the things of God being - blessed by them, and seen even by our 5 senses the blessings He bestows, yet in part, yet seeing all He will bestow. by my proclamation of God's promises, thru righteousness, yet all of God and His Spiritual truths are equally as real as my hand shake when you stand in front of me and I deliver it.

Jesus saith unto him, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29).

This is as real as my thoughts I cannot see or touch; or God's love I cannot hold or examine under a microscope.

 

[hornetguy]

What do you think our five senses tell us about the true nature of reality? Can we depend on our senses to tell all the truth about reality? Let me hear what you think about this?

At first blush, without a lot of thought, I would say no. I think that there are things that happen that are beyond our 5 senses.

Whether they are premonitions, deja vu, some sort of psychic ability.... I think that there are too many credible examples of things of this nature to simply dismiss them out of hand.