Questions and doubts

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Oct 16, 2017
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#81
Can someone explain to me the reason why this world is so full of suffering? There is so much pain, horror, and death in this life. God knew what it would be like yet put us here anyway. Innocents suffer and die at the hands of evil people, but God doesn't prevent it. People suffer terrible diseases. People and animals are born deformed. People are born mentally handicapped. Even if it's sin that caused these things to come into this world, God knew it would happen and let us do it anyway. He built the system in which sin would usher these things in, and built these things, as well.

Anything God wished to teach us through the pain and horror of this world could have been taught any other way he could fathom. Yet, he chose this. This horrible, violent world, where everything withers and dies around us, including us and our loved ones. Any choice of ours that brought this to be is ultimately God's responsibility for giving us the capability to sin and the space to do it in. Why would he put us here to suffer and die in agony when he could have made it any other way? I just can't understand it. The designer of the system bears responsibility for everything that occurs within it, which means all the sinful choices are God's fault.

God designed us and he designed the system. We have no ability at all to operate outside of the bounds he placed upon us. We really are like machines, designed to function a certain way, within certain limits. Do we blame a machine when it doesn't do something properly, or do we blame the designer? It would be foolish to blame the machine, as it's foolish to blame us. The responsibility lies with the designer, or in this case, with God. It's God's fault that we sin and that we suffer because we are HIS creations operating within HIS system. We are HIS flawed creations, yet he punishes us when we screw up!? How is that right or just!!? And the most important question is WHY?? WHY did he put us here, in this state, flawed and taken to sin, only to be punished for that which is not our fault?
You ask questions that have no answser.
You won't find the answer to what you ask. God only let us know as much as we needed. We don't know everything.
No one on this forum, or any other forum, will be able to answer you. My suggestion is to stop thinking about this.
We just have to accept that God is love, as John said, and whatever is going on that we will not know about, God is helping us and doing what He can do for us -- and this is all we'll know.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#82
You ask questions that have no answser.
You won't find the answer to what you ask. God only let us know as much as we needed. We don't know everything.
No one on this forum, or any other forum, will be able to answer you. My suggestion is to stop thinking about this.
We just have to accept that God is love, as John said, and whatever is going on that we will not know about, God is helping us and doing what He can do for us -- and this is all we'll know.
I would say there are some very good answers and many people on this forum gave them.

We do not have to always cover into "we cannot know" cloak.
 
Oct 16, 2017
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#83
I would say there are some very good answers and many people on this forum gave them.

We do not have to always cover into "we cannot know" cloak.
Oh.
So WHY is there suffering?
I didn't catch the answer...
 
Oct 16, 2017
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#84
I would say there are some very good answers and many people on this forum gave them.

We do not have to always cover into "we cannot know" cloak.
BTW, the O.P. hasn't accepted any of the answers either....
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,500
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#85
Oh.
So WHY is there suffering?
I didn't catch the answer...
Evil and suffering is caused by the sins of humanity in refusing to follow God's ways (post #47 :))
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,500
26,464
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#86
BTW, the O.P. hasn't accepted any of the answers either....
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
#87
Oh.
So WHY is there suffering?
I didn't catch the answer...
when you say suffering


do you mean Gods long suffering towards men and women....until the day of judgement wanting all to turn to Jesus


or do you mean the suffering caused by sin?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
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#88
Oh.
So WHY is there suffering?
I didn't catch the answer...
The primary reason is the devil, who is the god of this age (2 Cor 4:4).

1 John 5:
19) We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Luke 4:
5) And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6) And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

John 10:
10) The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Acts 10:
38) How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
 
Oct 16, 2017
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#89
Evil and suffering is caused by the sins of humanity in refusing to follow God's ways (post #47 :))
Why do we sin if God made us perfect?
Why did Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit if the sin nature did not exist yet?
 
Oct 16, 2017
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#90
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Are you saying the O.P. is not Christian?
Are you saying you know the answer to any question I might come up with?
 
Oct 16, 2017
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#91
when you say suffering


do you mean Gods long suffering towards men and women....until the day of judgement wanting all to turn to Jesus


or do you mean the suffering caused by sin?
The O.P. has a legitimate question that is not answerable:

If God is all-good and God is omnipotent...
Why does human suffering happen?

Is He not all-good
Or is He not omnipotent?

This is a big problem for Christianity and some here think they know the answer.

Suffering:
Getting sick
Feeling hurt by someone
The strong winds knock down my house
A loved one dies
A child gets cancer
etc
etc

Suffering...all of it.
 
Oct 16, 2017
90
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#92
The primary reason is the devil, who is the god of this age (2 Cor 4:4).

1 John 5:
19) We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Luke 4:
5) And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6) And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

John 10:
10) The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Acts 10:
38) How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
The best answer is this one.

But it still doesn't answer WHY the devil has this power...
Think about it.
There is no answer.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#93
Why do we sin if God made us perfect?
Because as a result of the sin of Adam, we all have a sin nature. Sin "dwells in us" (Rom 7:14-20).

Why did Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit if the sin nature did not exist yet?
They chose to believe the serpent rather than God.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#94
The best answer is this one.

But it still doesn't answer WHY the devil has this power...
Think about it.
There is no answer.
The answer is in Luke 4.

Luke 4:
5) And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6) And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

God originally gave Adam and Eve dominion over the earth. When they sinned, that dominion was transferred (delivered) to Satan.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
#95
The O.P. has a legitimate question that is not answerable:

If God is all-good and God is omnipotent...
Why does human suffering happen?

Is He not all-good
Or is He not omnipotent?

This is a big problem for Christianity and some here think they know the answer.

Suffering:
Getting sick
Feeling hurt by someone
The strong winds knock down my house
A loved one dies
A child gets cancer
etc
etc

Suffering...all of it.
why do you focus on temporal things?

if you lean on your own understanding there is no universal standard and your whole world view is subjective


in which there is no good
or evil

there is opinion.....



also

there is no love without free will

which is why i can choose to cause you to suffer

or choose to follow Gods will and love you


120 years is nothing but a blink of an eye compared to "forever"

youre argument is like someone saying "how can this food be good for me if it tastes so bad"



there was no sickness or suffering before wills other than Gods will were acted upon
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#96
Oh.
So WHY is there suffering?
I didn't catch the answer...
I think that the best world theory is the most suitable and God-honoring.

The fact that the OP did not accept any answer is quite irrelevant to the problem if the answer is good or not, some people actually do not want any answer.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#97
Can someone explain to me the reason why this world is so full of suffering? There is so much pain, horror, and death in this life. God knew what it would be like yet put us here anyway. Innocents suffer and die at the hands of evil people, but God doesn't prevent it. People suffer terrible diseases. People and animals are born deformed. People are born mentally handicapped. Even if it's sin that caused these things to come into this world, God knew it would happen and let us do it anyway. He built the system in which sin would usher these things in, and built these things, as well.

Anything God wished to teach us through the pain and horror of this world could have been taught any other way he could fathom. Yet, he chose this. This horrible, violent world, where everything withers and dies around us, including us and our loved ones. Any choice of ours that brought this to be is ultimately God's responsibility for giving us the capability to sin and the space to do it in. Why would he put us here to suffer and die in agony when he could have made it any other way? I just can't understand it. The designer of the system bears responsibility for everything that occurs within it, which means all the sinful choices are God's fault.

God designed us and he designed the system. We have no ability at all to operate outside of the bounds he placed upon us. We really are like machines, designed to function a certain way, within certain limits. Do we blame a machine when it doesn't do something properly, or do we blame the designer? It would be foolish to blame the machine, as it's foolish to blame us. The responsibility lies with the designer, or in this case, with God. It's God's fault that we sin and that we suffer because we are HIS creations operating within HIS system. We are HIS flawed creations, yet he punishes us when we screw up!? How is that right or just!!? And the most important question is WHY?? WHY did he put us here, in this state, flawed and taken to sin, only to be punished for that which is not our fault?

Should you come to the conclusion, that YOU NEED God, Much more, then, God needs YOU? Like Jesus said to Paul: "Why are you "kicking" against the "cattle prods?" (meant to keep you from turning left, or right)

Til then? Quit yer bi@@#!n' :cool:
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,551
2,173
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#98
Thank you all for the detailed and interesting responses. I've been discussing this with a group of Christians in another forum, as well, and would like to share the results of that endeavor, in order to continue this discussion. Their arguments did nothing to quell my doubts and only left me with the following, which none of them had a response to.

The other member stated: "However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature."

This statement is along my lines of thinking, which led me to this:

"That sums up my point nicely, yes. free will is multiple choice. the nature of man is a limiting factor, which God imposed upon us. Therefore, he gave us the capacity to sin, and the space to do it in.

My biggest doubt is about how any of this adds up, rather than sounding like a cobbled together explanation of why we're here, in this painful and frightening existence. God could have made it any way he pleased, so he HAD to have chosen this painful world for some reason. Every reason anyone gives me of why we must suffer could be fulfilled in any other way that God chooses. He chose for us to suffer and sin, even though the knowledge that comes from contrast and duality could be delivered without us suffering and sinning.

If sin is such an affront to him, why give us such incredible capacity for it, and dispose our animal natures to indulging in it? How could anything Satan does to tempt us fall outside the purview of God, knowing all things to come, every choice, every move? Why does he leave us here to suffer and sin, and then be sent to hell for things he allowed for us to do, but people call it free will? It's not free, and he's ALWAYS KNOWN we would do it, yet he lets us. He equipped us to sin, allows the conditions to exist in which we can sin, and then sends us to hell because of it? If there is no freewill (as we seem to have established) then it's a rigged game, and we're being punished for no real reason."

Describing this world, and ourselves, as systems or programs is a good way of looking at it, I think. I don't see how our free will (or sovereignty) could lie outside the bounds God has placed upon us. It is impossible for us to operate outside of the limits of his creation and those placed upon us, isn't it? Therefore, we are programs executing within a larger one, called the universe, all designed by God and running in the fashion which he intended.
It is o.k. to question and try and figure out why things are the way they are because that means you are thinking and trying to understand what is going on.

I'd like to answer what I have bolded in blue.

so he HAD to have chosen this painful world for some reason

God did not choose this painful world for us to live in. In six days he created a perfect world and placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden which was perfect in every way so perfect in fact that they didn't need clothes telling me that the temp was just right.

They were innocent to anything even remotely resembling sin and Gods light must have been their covering because they didn't know they were naked until they sinned and all of a sudden they are embarrassed by what they see trying to cover up their nakedness.

Because there was a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden proves that we have free will to choose as if the tree was not there then all we would have had was to do things Gods way only and we never would have known that we didn't have a choice.

This world became the sinful violent world after the choice was made to see if God meant what he said by eating the fruit from that tree. They saw some of the effects immediately realizing that they were naked and all of a sudden embarrassed covering themselves with leaves and then trying to hide from God when he came looking for them.

God did not create this wicked world He created a perfect world our sins and wrong choices has made this the horrible place that it is now. This is our doing not God's.

He chose for us to suffer and sin, even though the knowledge that comes from contrast and duality could be delivered without us suffering and sinning.

Why does he leave us here to suffer and sin, and then be sent to hell for things he allowed for us to do, but people call it free will?

God did not choose for us to suffer and sin. He knew that WE would choose to suffer and sin a Big difference.... God also had a plan of Salvation in place before creating this world He made a plan for us ahead of time in case we failed which was the sacrifice of His Son Jesus who has paid the penalty of all our sins and the debt has been paid in full by Jesus sacrifice and death so we have a way out of this sinful world and all you have to do is accept it.

The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

As stated above we have chosen sin and our world had been going down hill ever since. God didn't create this or want our world to be this way. Because if we hadn't eaten from the tree we'd still be in the Garden of Eden the perfect place God put Adam and Eve in to start with.

God doesn't plan to leave us here forever to suffer and sin because He has already given us Jesus who has made a way out for us and someday soon Jesus will return and put an end to this world as we know it. The Bible tells us there will be a new heaven and a new earth for the former things will pass away. So God will recreate this world to be the perfect world that He intended it to be in the beginning.

Therefore, we are programs executing within a larger one, called the universe, all designed by God and running in the fashion which he intended.

At the current time we are not running according to how God intended this world to run. We are running under the program of sin and death, but Jesus has come and conquered sin and satan so we look to Jesus and submit ourselves to God and His plan and Jesus blood covers us when we repent and come to Him and accept the gift of salvation that He offers us. God no longer looks at our sins but He sees the perfect life of Jesus covering us and accepts us as if we had never sinned.

There is a way out and the way was made when Jesus died on the cross for you and for me. A test of our free will is will you accept this gift and submit and give your heart and life to God? Will you choose life or will you choose to continue in sin? This is the free will choice that we have to make everyday.

The Lord He is God... Choose you this day whom you will serve as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

We each have free will to choose.


 
Oct 16, 2017
90
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#99
The answer is in Luke 4.

Luke 4:
5) And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6) And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

God originally gave Adam and Eve dominion over the earth. When they sinned, that dominion was transferred (delivered) to Satan.
And how did satan come about?
Some believe God created him.
If so, God wouldn't be all-good - which He is.

What about Dualism?
Do you believe satan has the same power God has?
No. And I agree.
So why can't God use His omnipotence to stop him?

It's a little complicated, I think.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,500
26,464
113
Why do we sin if God made us perfect?
Why did Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit if the sin nature did not exist yet?
God called His creation "good."
We are perfected in Jesus Christ.
Jesus was tempted but did not sin.