Rapture Gap

[Bladerunner]

I have wasted much time on this forum, but will make one more post.
I am a computer dummy. I type with two fingers and do not know how to cut and paste.
To much effort and time involved.

I am sorry you feel you have wasted your time...While you have been trying to teach others to your way of though, I and others have been trying to teach you about the Bible ...Now that you have opened up,,, Believe I can help.

This is my understanding after many, many years of prayer and study.
Rev. 3:10 is addressed to the church at Philadelphia. You misused it to make your point.

NO,,,,this what Jesus told SARDIS and its membership. Like a thief in the Night, they would be left behind. How can they be left behind if we have a post rapture. I suggest you reread the Sardis letter again.

Tribulation and wrath are two different words with two different meanings.

When the Bible speaks of tribulation, it is referring to tribulation for Christians.Christians are persecuted for their faith and have tribulation. The Bible tells us, Non-Christians, or unbelievers don't experience the tribulation although they can experience various degrees of difficulties. They aren't ostracized or persecuted for their views and anti-Christian beliefs.

1 Thes 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" He believes in us,,,He Loves us.

To call any tribulation God's wrath is wrong.
Saints have in the past and even today suffer tribulation. Some suffer more than others. Some die daily.
Tribulation is brought about by men and by natural disasters. Yes, God sometimes "allows" tribulation to come into the lives of saints.

The tribulations we have been speaking of are not the personal type of Tribulations, but of the type everyone in the world will go through.

I do not believe in a seven year "tribulation period"
That belief is based on a misunderstand of Dan 9:27.
"He" does not refer to the man of sin but to the Messiah
Daniel is speaking of God's dealing with Israel for 70 weeks of years--490 years.
After 483 years, the Messiah will come. This was fulfilled at Jesus baptism..

Daniel 9:27.."And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

And HE (the antichrist)shall confirm the Covenant with many (Israel) for one week (7 years).

The 490 years you and Daniel speak of is true and it was measured against the People of Israel. However, there are two points you failed to recognize from other prophets. The 'Servitude of Nation" and the 'Desolations of Jerusalem"... 490 years from this prophecy to the exact day, April 6 32 AD, Jesus on an ass road into Jerusalem three days prior to his crucifixion.

While we are at it,,,, Daniel 9:24 (a summary) states that the reason for this prophecy is end transgressions, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity,, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy

None of these things have happened yet except the "reconciliation for iniquity" which Jesus Christ did on the cross.


. The saint who God has protected and are alive will be gathered to Him.
At this time seven bowls of God's wrath will be poured out on the earth. This will take 35 days.

This is were I think you are going wrong. The tribulations from the seals to the Bowls will kill 1/3 of the population of the earth.
2/3 of the Jewish people alive at the beginning will die...all according to scripture. Many Christians like you who believe in God but are not looking for him will be left behind... You will then more than likely have to be a killed in his name to reach heaven.

That is what I believe the Word of God teaches.
I know you will disagree and will misuse many Scriptures to prove me wrong.
35 years ago I believed as you believed because that is what I was taught and that is what was accepted as fact among Missionary Baptist Churches.
Here is my challenge to you.
Lay aside everything you have been taught and believed and with much prayer, study again with an open mind.
That is what I did 35 years ago, and God revealed to me through His Word the truth.

And who did you study with.?..Why did you change your mind.? do read the Bible literally. Why did you leave...We still have not heard that yet. WHY?

If you want we can go through any part of the Bible you want to,,, Just do me a favor...since you were there to begin with and backtracked,,,, Tell me WHY?

 

[Bladerunner]

If pre-trib is true then why do you folks answer all clear scripture and honest reason with double-talk? I can quote Jesus saying that after the tribulation He will appear in the sky, with a trumpet, and send the angles to gather all those who believe in Him. Can you quote Jesus saying that He will return before the tribulation, invisible except to believers, and suddenly snatch Christians away so that no one knows what happened?? If the post-trib gathering is clearly in the bible and the pre-trib gathering is not, then why are you rejecting what is in the bible and accepting what is not in the bible?

1 thes 4: 14-17.."For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[/C16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

"The dead shall rise first", All those souls that were "in Christ" at the time of their death are now in Heaven awaiting their Eternal Bodies to be risen from the grave.

17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

Lets go over this verse....

"....We which are Alive and Remain'\...." (not Dead).
"....Shall be Caught UP ..." Caught Up = Hebrew word Harpozo...from the RC Church that uses Latin (Rapio) meaning Rapture.
"........together with them in the clouds...." Together with them (with those from the grave)......."In the Clouds"
Notice here Jesus does not return to the Earth. only in the SKY which in the Genesis, God call Heaven. Actually it was the first heaven.
".....to meet the Lord in the air...." Here Jesus gives us an undisputable location of where this (Harpozo) is going to happen.
"........so shall we ever be with the Lord....." This is the best part of that passage......We will be in Heaven forever with Him.

One final word::::"..."For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again... The KEY is DO YOU BELIEVE?

 

[samuel23]

Ahwa, You are approaching the bible incorrectly therefore you are getting incorrect information from it. If I gave you a written note on how to get to my house and you used the same approach that you are using to interpret the bible you could well end up on the moon. You cannot arrive at truth with the method you are using. It is not up to any of us to "make" the bible go together as we believe it should, it is up to us to take each specific teaching in the context in which it was written and simply believe that part of the bible. You quote 1Cor 15:52 which is simply Paul repeating Jesus description of His return when He said it would be with a trumpet blast...that is the postrib rapture. Instead of just recognizing that Paul was simply teaching what Jesus gave the church about a trumpet blast at His return, you have to go off into Rev that was written years later and claim that Paul HAD to be writing of the 7th trumpet. Paul's use of "last" trumpet simply meant the last call as the church was taken out, that has nothing to do with the 7 trumpets of judgment in Rev, the church is gone before the wrath of God. To sum this up, you are striving to explain complex things while you have not got a good grasp on the primary things.

 

[samuel23]

Bladerunner, thank you so much for quoting all those scriptures about the post-trib rapture of the church that the Apostle Paul taught the church. Paul joined a post-trib believing church, that doctrine having been established by Jesus Himself. Why would you think those scriptures were speaking of a pre-trib rapture that cannot be found in the NT?

 

[Bladerunner]

Ahwa, You are approaching the bible incorrectly therefore you are getting incorrect information from it. If I gave you a written note on how to get to my house and you used the same approach that you are using to interpret the bible you could well end up on the moon. You cannot arrive at truth with the method you are using. It is not up to any of us to "make" the bible go together as we believe it should, it is up to us to take each specific teaching in the context in which it was written and simply believe that part of the bible. You quote 1Cor 15:52 which is simply Paul repeating Jesus description of His return when He said it would be with a trumpet blast...that is the postrib rapture. Instead of just recognizing that Paul was simply teaching what Jesus gave the church about a trumpet blast at His return, you have to go off into Rev that was written years later and claim that Paul HAD to be writing of the 7th trumpet. Paul's use of "last" trumpet simply meant the last call as the church was taken out, that has nothing to do with the 7 trumpets of judgment in Rev, the church is gone before the wrath of God. To sum this up, you are striving to explain complex things while you have not got a good grasp on the primary things.

Yes, it is very obvious that you do not believe that the Bible is a divinely designed, written and Inspired Word of God.

 

[Bladerunner]

Bladerunner, thank you so much for quoting all those scriptures about the post-trib rapture of the church that the Apostle Paul taught the church. Paul joined a post-trib believing church, that doctrine having been established by Jesus Himself. Why would you think those scriptures were speaking of a pre-trib rapture that cannot be found in the NT?

What cannot be found in the NT,,,, about the Rapture...NO the Word Rapture is from a Latin Word 'Rapio' and this was used in the RCC. It (Rapture the word) was was taken by almost everyone. It has since become synonymous with the Greek wording for the Hebrew scrolls for "Caught UP" (Harpozo)

Why did you change?????? If the change was because of a lifestyle.....................??

 

[Bladerunner]

Bladerunner, thank you so much for quoting all those scriptures about the post-trib rapture of the church that the Apostle Paul taught the church. Paul joined a post-trib believing church, that doctrine having been established by Jesus Himself. Why would you think those scriptures were speaking of a pre-trib rapture that cannot be found in the NT?

Samuel23...it appears that you and others are continuing to come back to this ONE story (above). What Paul Said and did.

Rem paul was told to go and preach to both the jews and gentiles.

I and others have given you enough scriptures to justify the Harpozo to fill a small book. Yet you and others just come back to this above story.

I will say this,,,if this is all you have, you are on THIN ICE my friend. There is a better choice..

 

[pottersclay]

Ahwa, You are approaching the bible incorrectly therefore you are getting incorrect information from it. If I gave you a written note on how to get to my house and you used the same approach that you are using to interpret the bible you could well end up on the moon. You cannot arrive at truth with the method you are using. It is not up to any of us to "make" the bible go together as we believe it should, it is up to us to take each specific teaching in the context in which it was written and simply believe that part of the bible. You quote 1Cor 15:52 which is simply Paul repeating Jesus description of His return when He said it would be with a trumpet blast...that is the postrib rapture. Instead of just recognizing that Paul was simply teaching what Jesus gave the church about a trumpet blast at His return, you have to go off into Rev that was written years later and claim that Paul HAD to be writing of the 7th trumpet. Paul's use of "last" trumpet simply meant the last call as the church was taken out, that has nothing to do with the 7 trumpets of judgment in Rev, the church is gone before the wrath of God. To sum this up, you are striving to explain complex things while you have not got a good grasp on the primary things.

Ya see that's where you and a lot of folks go wrong here....interpret ...no....translate yes. As my brothers have said from the old to the new, find the story line..you got the story.
If you want to symbolize thinking you have a Devine insight....blind as a bat.
If you can tell me the reason Christ sacrifice was not good enough to save us from the wrath that is to come (and believe me it's coming. And why we are not to rest in the finished works of Jesus and trust that he will save his people.
If you can show me one thing that is impossible for God to do.
Point me to the scriptures that say we are made to atone for our own sins so beware of the wrath of God .
That the church can operate without the holy spirit. And to love those that hate and rebel against God.
That Jesus died for the angels too as well as the angelic host. Then I think we have a starting point to listen to your interpretation.

 

[Bladerunner]

Quote Originally Posted by samuel23 View Post
There seems to an idea out there that if we muddy the water enough we can cause a pre-trib rapture to come into existence. There is also a big lie out there that one cannot really tell by reading the bible whether there is a pre-trib rapture or post-trib rapture. The pre-trib rapture is based 100% on the belief that Paul, in the Thess letters, wrote of a different return of Christ then the return Jesus gave the church through the apostles and that it preceded the return that Jesus gave the church through the apostles. You see, the idea that Paul wrote of a different return of Christ then the return Jesus gave the apostles...is not based on any scriptural evidence at all. Simple deductive reasoning tells us that the church before Paul had to be post-trib because that was the only return of Christ they could have been taught. Also, when Paul joined the church he would have accepted the post-trib rapture that the rest of the church was already believing in. When you add to that the fact that Paul described the return of Christ exactly the same as Jesus described His return then it is a slam dunk...no such thing as a pre-trib rapture.


"The pre-trib rapture is based 100% on the belief that Paul, in the Thess letters, wrote of a different return of Christ then the return Jesus gave the church through the apostles and that it preceded the return that Jesus gave the church through the apostles.

Samuel23..... can you give be more specific here. in 1 Thes 4: 14-17,, Paul is retelling through this letter to the Thessaloneans
what he had preached to them for three weeks. Why would it be different and where is the passage (s) that will show me that Jesus told it different than Paul?

Thank you

 

[Bladerunner]

Quote Originally Posted by samuel23 View Post
There seems to an idea out there that if we muddy the water enough we can cause a pre-trib rapture to come into existence. There is also a big lie out there that one cannot really tell by reading the bible whether there is a pre-trib rapture or post-trib rapture. The pre-trib rapture is based 100% on the belief that Paul, in the Thess letters, wrote of a different return of Christ then the return Jesus gave the church through the apostles and that it preceded the return that Jesus gave the church through the apostles. You see, the idea that Paul wrote of a different return of Christ then the return Jesus gave the apostles...is not based on any scriptural evidence at all. Simple deductive reasoning tells us that the church before Paul had to be post-trib because that was the only return of Christ they could have been taught. Also, when Paul joined the church he would have accepted the post-trib rapture that the rest of the church was already believing in. When you add to that the fact that Paul described the return of Christ exactly the same as Jesus described His return then it is a slam dunk...no such thing as a pre-trib rapture.


"The pre-trib rapture is based 100% on the belief that Paul, in the Thess letters, wrote of a different return of Christ then the return Jesus gave the church through the apostles and that it preceded the return that Jesus gave the church through the apostles.

Samuel23..... can you give be more specific here. in 1 Thes 4: 14-17,, Paul is retelling through this letter to the Thessaloneans
what he had preached to them for three weeks. Why would it be different and where is the passage (s) that will show me that Jesus told it different than Paul?

Thank you

I guess there are none.....

 

[zone]

I have been looking over some information concerning the Rapture Gap and the Seven seals. So far, I have had to rethink some old thoughts.

We all (literalist at least) understand that the tribulations will not happen immediately after the Rapture.....

ya lost me there

 

[zone]

.....Regarding the above, I would have to disagree, as I have always maintained that the seals are apart of God's wrath and therefore take place within the seven years....

what seven years?
please just post briefly.
thanks

 

[zone]

Sometimes we can look so hard for mysteries that we over look the obvious. In matt 24 and Mark 13 Jesus clearly described a tribulation period BEFORE He would return in the sky to gather the believers. That tribulation period he described is very much like the 4 horsemen. Jesus tribulation involves world disasters and great persecution of Christians that ends with His return. The seals describe the same thing and end with the time of Christ wrath(His return) and then in Rev 7 the church is in Heaven having gone through the tribulation. People are mixing up the period that Jesus called the great tribulation with the time of God's wrath. The great tribulation happens before the rapture of the church but the wrath of God happens after the church is taken out.

could you post the 2 strongest arguments (passages) saying "the church is taken out"

 

[zone]

Agree with you Ahwatukee about the tribulations... It is a misnomer at the best but it has ingrained itself into the teaching of Book of Revelation. Like you said, there is only one tribulation and it was named by Jesus Christ himself to be the Great Tribulations......

where does Jesus say "the Great Tribulations"?

 

[zone]

The Church is already gone prior to this point in time. See Chapter 4.

could you post the passages you think indicate "The Church is already gone"

 

[zone]

-------- Seven year covenant with Israel established (Dan.9:27, Matt.24:15)....

Daniel 9:7
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15
So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those in Judea flee to the mountains.…

....

Ahwatukee,
are you aware of the horrific events of 70AD?
what significance do you believe the historical events of 70AD hold re: the two above passages?
do you believe any portion of the above two passages has been fulfilled at all?

 

[zone]

As I said in the earlier post, the return that Jesus is speaking of is his return to the earth to end the age, as described in Matt.24:29-31. What it is not referring to is Christ's appearing to gather the church, which takes place over several years prior to his return to the earth....

so according to you, "the rapture" takes "several years" to take place (?)
please show me that in the Bible.

 

[zone]

.... I've never read anything by Darby or scholfield and therefore, they have had no influence on me. I study scripture exclusively....

why would you outright lie that way?...no one, not any one has ever come to the conclusions you do UNLESS they've been indo'c into it.
at least be honest Ahwatukee. you and I both know your assertion is false.

 

[zone]

.....For right away you are in trouble with this view, because post-trib puts the church through the entire wrath of God. The wrath of God is the barrier and it must take place in between right now and when Christ returns. There is no way around this, unless you do what some have by reinterpreting the coming wrath or allegorizing/symbolizing it....

even if the bulk of your argument was true (it isn't), why can't your god preserve ppl DURING His wrath (Rahab et al)?

 

[HisHolly]

He did so in Egypt as well when He brought the plagues.

even if the bulk of your argument was true (it isn't), why can't your god preserve ppl DURING His wrath (Rahab et al)?