Recovering from the Matt. 28:19 Baptism formula. Pro-Christ Gentile save thyself.

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O

OneJack

Guest
I cannot...but I care

The Spirit has a role:

1 Pet.1
[2] Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
through sanctification (separation to faith in Christ) of/ BY the Spirit, unto obedience
and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

ALL must be ONE... :)
Just be sure that it is the Lord Jesus himself who you are following with, not anything and anyone who is not the Lord.
 
Nov 16, 2013
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Just be sure that it is the Lord Jesus himself who you are following with, not anything and anyone who is not the Lord.
No mistake that is why I can stand 'alone'

Same to you...:)

There are things that I wll NEVER tell unless the person is at my Spiritual level.

It hurts them.... :)


Did you disagree with my verse from Peter...??
 
O

OneJack

Guest
Where in the Bible does God actually command us to call on the name of Jesus under the water? I have never heard of this teaching before. And please, do explain where you came up with this. I'm very curious because if it's true I certainty want to do it correctly.
We can call on to the Lord Jesus anywhere we are and He can respond to us in any way He wants to talk to us.
 
D

doulos

Guest
In post 15 yousaid
This religiom has a fewsecrets.
Notice that Paul said: "We are the Stewards of the mysteries of GOD."
The people keep secrets. They can hurt you by not telling.
PM me if you want to ask any more details.
I am willing to help.
I am strengthened for it.
In post 27 you said
Hello,
I understand your position but this tradition has secrets.
In post 29 you said
There are secrets in thisTradition.
This method gets a response from Jesus and is more than getting wet.
You know Scripture says
1Th_5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Kind of hard to prove something when it is a secret!

Secrets may be common in some cults, but Christianity isn’t about secrets, the bible is an open book for all to read, we have no need to cover our lamps ……….

Mat 5:14-16 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Isn’t it funny how those in some cults like to hide behind secrets, instead of being a light to the world?

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Good thing we have the bible containing the Word of God! The truths in God’s Word are available to all who seek, no need to get involved with a cult to learn some hidden secret!
 
Nov 13, 2013
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We can call on to the Lord Jesus anywhere we are and He can respond to us in any way He wants to talk to us.
Peopleare used to their sheepherds even praying for them.

We have been lied to and a GREAT disrespect was comitted.

The people they trust is their downfall...

Isa.1
[28] And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together,
and they who forsake the LORD (Jesus in baptism) shall be consumed.
[29] For they (outsiders) shall be ashamed of the OAKS (Apostles)
whom you (the flock) have desired,
and you (outsiders) shall be confounded for the gardens (not sent)that you have chosen.
 
O

OneJack

Guest
Peopleare used to their sheepherds even praying for them.
We have been lied to and a GREAT disrespect was comitted.
The people they trust is their downfall...
Isa.1
[28] And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together,
and they who forsake the LORD (Jesus in baptism) shall be consumed.
[29] For they (outsiders) shall be ashamed of the OAKS (Apostles)
whom you (the flock) have desired,
and you (outsiders) shall be confounded for the gardens (not sent)that you have chosen.
One of the greatest things that was hidden to mankind for quite a long, long time has been revealed by the Lord Jesus today and He, the Lord Jesus said:
"I Am the Pastor. I Am the Good Pastor. Keep in your mind that there are no others who will teach you except Me. If ever that you will be explaining with each other, same will be only in accordance with your will, same will be in accordance with your own thinking. Hence, keep in your mind that whosoever will act being a pastor, who will act being a leader of My Church, he is doing iniquity and snatching away My post being the Good Pastor because you are only human beings, those of you who act as pastors, those of you who teach and standing up in front of many people, those of you who are doers of iniquities, those of you who cast out devils in My name. Keep in your mind that in My Second coming, many will call to Me saying, Lord, Lord, didn’t we do powerful works and in your name we cast out devils, we did healing. But keep in your mind, I will say to them, never at any time do I know you, I do not know you at any time, those of you who are habitual workers of iniquity, those of you who are casting out devils. Keep in your mind that if you cast out devils, you are snatching away the title role which properly belongs to Me only. If there is anyone being possessed by a demon that you may encounter, you should only pray to Me and in that manner I Am ready to hear your prayer and I will hear your every plea that you will whisper to Me, that you will shout at, that you will pray to. I will help you and I will never forsake you at any time much more to those people who are with Me and who follow Me."
 
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GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
Evidence against the Traditional Wording of Matthew 28:19

Matt.28
[19] Go you (11 Apostles) therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them:
>> ‘in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.’ << (This was changed.)

The Churches have been deceived for many generations
and were deprived of Spiritual Gifts.

Correct baptism calling on Jesus, from under the water,
still works for everyone who does it.
Strait and narrow/ precise is the WAY to Jesus that still works.

The process of Baptism is counsel from the Israelite God
and must be done correctly, orderly and respectfully.
Gentiles are coming to the Israelite God = Jesus.
The Israeliters are returning to him after rebelling from him and forsaking him.
He is now the HEAD of the Church, the owner of everything, including all people
and over all governmente.
Baptism is not complicated once it is known and understood.
The Israelites are accustomed to baptizing, even to today.

The following is original method to which the Jesus taught, Spirit led Apostles cleaved.

Acts.22:16
[16] Why tarry?
Arise, and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the LORD = (Jesus)

Pss.116
[12] What shall I render to the LORD (the Father) for all his benefits toward me?
[13] I will take the cup of salvation
and call upon the name of the LORD >> (Jesus, his beloved Son)

1 Cor.11
[2] Now I (Paul) praise (compliment) you, brethren,
that you remember me (Paul) in all things,
and you keep (obey) the ordinances (unchanged),
as I delivered them to you. >> (includes baptism calling on Jesus from under the water.)

2 Cor.13
[8] We (Christians and all reasonable people) can do nothing against the TRUTH
but for the TRUTH

Jas.3
[17] The wisdom that is from, Our Father, above is first:
pure
….
without partiality,
and without hypocrisy.

The following is not compiled by me.
***
The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics:
As to Matthew 28:19, it says: "It is the central piece of evidence for the traditional (Trinitarian) view.
If it were undisputed, this would, of course, be decisive,
but its trustworthiness is impugned on grounds of textual criticism, literary criticism and historical criticism."
The same Encyclopedia further states that:
"The obvious explanation of the silence of the New Testament on the triune name,
and the use of another (JESUS NAME) formula in Acts and Paul, is that this other formula was the earlier,
and the triune formula is a later addition."
***
Edmund Schlink, The Doctrine of Baptism, page 28:
"The baptismal command in its Matthew 28:19 form cannot be the historical origin of Christian baptism.
At the very least, it must be assumed that the text has been transmitted in a
form expanded by the [Catholic] church."
***
The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, 275:
"It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but...a later liturgical addition."
***
Wilhelm Bousset, Kyrios Christianity, page 295:
"The testimony for the wide distribution of the simple baptismal formula [in the Name of Jesus]
own into the second century
is so overwhelming that even in Matthew 28:19, the Trinitarian formula was later inserted."
***
The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:
"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ
to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."
***
Hastings Dictionary of the Bible 1963, page 1015:
"The Trinity.-...is not demonstrable by logic or by Scriptural proofs,
The term Trias was first used by Theophilus of Antioch (c AD 180),
(The term Trinity) not found in Scripture...”
"The chief Trinitarian text in the NT is the baptismal formula in Mt 28:19.
This late post-resurrection saying, not found in any other Gospel or anywhere else in the NT,
has been viewed by some scholars as an interpolation into Matthew……”
***
The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge:
"Jesus, however, cannot have given His disciples this Trinitarian order of baptism after His resurrection;
for the New Testament knows only one baptism
in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:43; 19:5; Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 1:13-15),
which still occurs even in the second and third centuries,
while the Trinitarian formula occurs only in Matt. 28:19,
and then only again (in the) Didache 7:1 and Justin, Apol. 1:61.
Finally, the distinctly liturgical character of the formula...is strange;
it was not the way of Jesus to make such formulas... the formal authenticity of Matt. 28:19
must be disputed..."page 435.
***
The Jerusalem Bible, a scholarly Catholic work, states:
"It may be that this formula, (Triune Matthew 28:19) so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned,
is a reflection of the (Man-made) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community
It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing "in the name of Jesus,"..."
***
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, page 2637, Under "Baptism," says:
"Matthew 28:19 in particular only canonizes a later ecclesiastical situation,
that its universalism is contrary to the facts of early Christian history,
and its Trinitarian formula (is) foreign to the mouth of Jesus."
***
New Revised Standard Version says this about Matthew 28:19:
"Modern critics claim this formula is falsely ascribed to Jesus
and that it represents later (Catholic) church tradition,
for nowhere in the book of Acts (or any other book of the Bible) is baptism performed with the name of the Trinity..."
***
James Moffett's New Testament Translation:
In a footnote on page 64 about Matthew 28:19 he makes this statement:
"It may be that this (Trinitarian) formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned,
is a reflection of the (Catholic) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community.
It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing "in the name of Jesus, cf. Acts 1:5 +."
***
The Bible Commentary 1919 page 723:
Dr. Peake makes it clear that:
"The command to baptize into the threefold name is a late doctrinal expansion.
Instead of the words baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
we should probably read simply-"into My Name."
***
Theology of the New Testament:
By R. Bultmann, 1951, page 133 under Kerygma of the Hellenistic Church and the Sacraments.
The historical fact that the verse Matthew 28:19 was altered is openly confessed to very plainly.
As to the rite of baptism, it was normally consummated as a bath
in which the one receiving baptism completely submerged,
and if possible in flowing water as the allusions of Acts 8:36, Heb. 10:22, Barn. 11:11 permit us to gather,
and as Did. 7:1-3 specifically says.
According to the last passage, [the apocryphal Catholic Didache] suffices in case of the need
if water is three times poured [false Catholic sprinkling doctrine] on the head.
The one baptizing names over the one being baptized the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,"
later expanded [changed] to the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit."
***
Doctrine and Practice in the Early Church:
By Dr. Stuart G. Hall 1992, pages 20 and 21.
Professor Stuart G. Hall was the former Chair of Ecclesiastical History at King's College, London England.
Dr. Hall makes the factual statement that Catholic Trinitarian Baptism
was not the original form of Christian Baptism,
rather the original was Jesus name baptism.
"In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"
although those words were not used, as they later are, as a formula.
Not all baptisms fitted this rule." Dr Hall further, states:
"More common and perhaps more ancient was the simple, "In the name of the Lord Jesus or, Jesus Christ."
***
The Catholic University of America in Washington, D. C. 1923,
New Testament Studies Number 5:
The Lord's Command To Baptize An Historical Critical Investigation. By Bernard Henry Cuneo page 27.
"The passages in Acts and the Letters of St. Paul.
These passages seem to point to the earliest form as baptism in the name of the Lord."
Also we find. "Is it possible to reconcile these facts with the belief
that Christ commanded his disciples to baptize in the trine form?
Had Christ given such a command, it is urged, the Apostolic Church would have followed him,
and we should have some trace of this obedience in the New Testament.
No such trace can be found.
The only explanation of this silence, according to the anti-traditional view,
is this the short Christological (Jesus Name) formula was (the) original,
and the longer trine formula was a later development."
***
A History of The Christian Church:
1953 by Williston Walker former Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale University.
On page 95 we see the historical facts again declared.
"With the early disciples generally baptism was "in the name of Jesus Christ."
***
Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger:
He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text of Matthew 28:19.
"The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape
during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism.
So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome.
“The Trinity baptism and text of Matthew 28:19 therefore did not originate from the original Church
that started in Jerusalem around AD 33.
It was rather as the evidence proves a later invention of Roman Catholicism completely fabricated.
Very few know about these historical facts.
***
"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:
Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea.
On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea.
According to this eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book
or the first copy of the original of Matthew.
Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19:
"With one word and voice He said to His disciples:
"Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name,
teaching them to observe all things whatever I have commanded you." That "Name" is Jesus.
***
Time Magazine, Dec. 5, 1955: Record of a True Baptism in Rome 100 A.D.

"The deacon raised his hand, and Publius Decius stepped through the baptistery door.
Standing waist-deep in the pool was Marcus Vasca the wood seller.
He was smiling as Publius waded into the pool beside him.
'Credis?' he asked.
Credo' responded Publius.
'I believe that my salvation comes from Jesus the Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate.
With Him I died that with Him I may have Eternal Life.'
Then he felt strong arms supporting him as he let himself fall backward into the pool,
and heard Marcus' voice in his ear,
'I baptize you in the Name of the Lord Jesus'
as the cold water closed over (buried) him."
***
The above Baptism conforms to the Doctrine of the Christ taught Apostles.
The baptizer called upon/ over the candidate the 'name of the LORD Jesus, our Savior.'
The child of the Father, who is coming to the LORD, (the Arm)
must also call on the LORD Jesus, from under the water, or all you do is get wet.
Calling God by his name to get his attention and response was always the beneficial Israelite custom.
Gentile must become aware of this fact.
Happiness follows.

Ride prosperously with Grace from the Father and the Son.
The foremost issue with this assessment is that there is no evidence that the passage was ever altered. Anyone who is familiar with even the basics of textual criticism can see how the historical transmission of the text and its geographic distribution actually sways in a direction which ultimately undermines your entire thesis. The historical transmission of Matthew 28.19, as well as its geographic distribution is so widely attested that it rules out any possibility of the verbiage being a product of the Roman Catholic Church. Of course, if Matthew 28.19 were corrupt, then we would expect at least some mss to capture the reading you espouse. Surely, if the text had originated in a particular region such as Rome at a later time, then we would expect conflicting data with other mss of that time, especially in mss from other geographic locales.

What you are suggesting is that during a time before computers, and radar tracking devices, the Roman Catholic Church was somehow able to amass every single NT mss (Greek, and versional witnesses) from all over the world, as well as every writing from every Church Father through the centuries (with a few exceptions to Eusebius’ works, which would have in that day, had been easily accessed), and insert the Trinitarian baptismal formula. And not only that, but their honing and tracking skills must have been better than anything we have today, because they didn’t leave a single witness untouched. And for being the sly fox that the Roman Catholic Church was, they must have gotten so caught up in the process of altering Matthew 28.19 that they completely forgot all about texts such as Acts 2.38, 8.16, 10.48, 19.5, and 22.16 (sarcasm).

It’s quite apparent that you have copied your source material from elsewhere, and have never actually read the material for yourself. For example, you cite the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia as saying,

"Matthew 28:19 in particular only canonizes a later ecclesiastical situation, that its universalism is contrary to the facts of early Christian history, and its Trinitarian formula (is) foreign to the mouth of Jesus."

However, if you reference the work itself, you will find that it lists several objections raised by higher critics of the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century, but then turns around and debunks these very objections. The source you’re citing is debunking the very argument that you’re attempting to espouse (see here).
 
Nov 13, 2013
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The foremost issue with this assessment is that there is no evidence that the passage was ever altered. Anyone who is familiar with even the basics of textual criticism can see how the historical transmission of the text and its geographic distribution actually sways in a direction which ultimately undermines your entire thesis. The historical transmission of Matthew 28.19, as well as its geographic distribution is so widely attested that it rules out any possibility of the verbiage being a product of the Roman Catholic Church. Of course, if Matthew 28.19 were corrupt, then we would expect at least some mss to capture the reading you espouse. Surely, if the text had originated in a particular region such as Rome at a later time, then we would expect conflicting data with other mss of that time, especially in mss from other geographic locales.

What you are suggesting is that during a time before computers, and radar tracking devices, the Roman Catholic Church was somehow able to amass every single NT mss (Greek, and versional witnesses) from all over the world, as well as every writing from every Church Father through the centuries (with a few exceptions to Eusebius’ works, which would have in that day, had been easily accessed), and insert the Trinitarian baptismal formula. And not only that, but their honing and tracking skills must have been better than anything we have today, because they didn’t leave a single witness untouched. And for being the sly fox that the Roman Catholic Church was, they must have gotten so caught up in the process of altering Matthew 28.19 that they completely forgot all about texts such as Acts 2.38, 8.16, 10.48, 19.5, and 22.16 (sarcasm).

It’s quite apparent that you have copied your source material from elsewhere, and have never actually read the material for yourself. For example, you cite the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia as saying,

"Matthew 28:19 in particular only canonizes a later ecclesiastical situation, that its universalism is contrary to the facts of early Christian history, and its Trinitarian formula (is) foreign to the mouth of Jesus."

However, if you reference the work itself, you will find that it lists several objections raised by higher critics of the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century, but then turns around and debunks these very objections. The source you’re citing is debunking the very argument that you’re attempting to espouse (see here).
Thank you.
 
Nov 13, 2013
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The light will get brighter....

2 Tim.2
[13] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.


Ezek.34
[10] Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds;
and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock;
neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more;
for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
 
O

OneJack

Guest
The light will get brighter....

2 Tim.2
[13] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.


Ezek.34
[10] Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds;
and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock;
neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more;
for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
Nothing has change, the Lord is the only Good Shepherd of all.
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
i just dont care...the dumbest arguments are brought up in bible discussion. its sad when the conspiracy forum has more credibility.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
***
You should move on brother.

We will meet at the Judgment where you will explain to the HEAD himself.

I will point out one thing and that is that the Epistles were written to baptized people.

The stumbling block got you.

You know that Paul said the "there were things that were not legal to tell."

Move on brother.

Take care.
The words you speak to me even contradict themselves. How can I be your brother, yet you say that I have fallen at the Stumbling Block?

I will not move out of your way. You make little to do the words spoken by Jesus when He said that faith is the required work of God for salvation.

I will not move out of your way.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
why harmonize it with the scriptures which is not the Lord God?
That is one jacked-up statement. Was it not Jesus who said go and search Scripture...... Maybe, we should tell Him that He got it wrong and should listen to the spirit which has attached it's self to one's scriptural ignorance, like it did to Mohammad...
 
Nov 26, 2013
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The light will get brighter....

2 Tim.2
[13] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.


Ezek.34
[10] Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds;
and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock;
neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more;
for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

Your teaching are weird do you learn from the Apostles ?
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
i just dont care...the dumbest arguments are brought up in bible discussion. its sad when the conspiracy forum has more credibility.
Is it a dumb argument when a person introduces a revealed secret which has been hidden from GENERATIONS OF SOULS?

Is it dumb to argue against one who introduces a new "ordained access" to God which is not faith?
 
O

OneJack

Guest
That is one jacked-up statement. Was it not Jesus who said go and search Scripture...... Maybe, we should tell Him that He got it wrong and should listen to the spirit which has attached it's self to one's scriptural ignorance, like it did to Mohammad...
Yes, Jesus said search the scripture but for what, for in them you think you have eternal life, is that true?


John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
Yes, Jesus said search the scripture but for what, for in them you think you have eternal life, is that true?


John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
And yet, you would say:

why harmonize it with the scriptures which is not the Lord God?
 
Nov 16, 2013
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And yet, you would say:

why harmonize it with the scriptures which is not the Lord God?
Ok...I am lost here
Go directly to Jesus, and call upon him in baptism, from under the water....

YOU HAVE BEEN LIED TO but if you love darkness and living self willed...enjoy.
The Spiritual man, having gifts from GOD, sees through self justification.
"enter like child."

Others did....

Have faith in Christ and go to him...
 
D

doulos

Guest
why harmonize it with the scriptures which is not the Lord God?

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Maybe it is time you do as these verses instruct;

2Ti 2:15-16 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
1Th_5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.