Render unto Cesar.........

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Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,991
338
83
Why do you think it is important to have the death penalty?

God instituted it for certain crimes,
"That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee. But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities: Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee" (Deuteronomy 19:10-13)

Does the death penalty help keep social order? I don't think so. Murder still happens.
If you kill a murderer, he does not murder again. I'd say that's a definite deterrent to crime, and its why God commanded us to put the evil among us away; "The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you" (Deuteronomy 17: 7).
 
Aug 21, 2015
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God instituted it for certain crimes,
"That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee. But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities: Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee" (Deuteronomy 19:10-13)



If you kill a murderer, he does not murder again. I'd say that's a definite deterrent to crime, and its why God commanded us to put the evil among us away; "The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you" (Deuteronomy 17: 7).
I have heard this argument before. What I am referring to is the fact it doesn't seem to be a deterrent in general. Murder rates have not declined. My position is the dp is revenge by a court. I know the courts are not 100%correct in these cases. I am not for sacrificing the few for the many. To me that is barbaric. Imagine what the innocent man goes through, how about their family ? I am not ok with this. If you have a different view, fine
 
G

Galahad

Guest
King David committed adultery..... by the Law, death sentence
King David committed pre-meditated murder..... by the Law, death sentence.

God set aside His own law to spare David's double death sentence..... and the Law required equal justice.
Why? God is no respecter of persons, even with kings.

Remember the guy on the cross beside Jesus? Pardoned, forgiven, promised paradise..... all under the Law, against the "letter" of the Law. Yet the Father & the Son is justified in throwing out their death sentences under the law.

The law of Christ, the New Covenant is in force now..... The old is done away with, as well as those unwritten laws before the Law.

Hebrews 10:9 (KJV)
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

BTW, has anyone watched the documentaries that have investigated the death sentences taken place on innocent people?

The death sentence isn't justified against the New Covenant, neither is our justice system trustworthy to carry out such a sentence.

The only way I would "tolerate" the death penalty is for mass murderers or mass rapists. Even then, absolute evidence should be provided.

Who said David committed adultery? How does he or she know?
Who said David committed murder? How does he or she know?
Who told you David committed adultery?


“The guy on the cross.”
Yes, I remember him. Guess what? He died on the cross. Jesus didn’t spare him from the cross after He forgave the man. The man still died on the cross. You see, your example of the "guy" on the cross is crisscrossed. It don't really match up.


“...isn't justified...neither is our justice system trustworthy to carry out such a sentence."
Our justice system has far more checks and balances, far more safe guards, far more ways of proving guilt and innocence than Israel ever had, yet the Lord commanded Israel to “put to death.”


“The only way I would ‘tolerate’ the death penalty is for mass murderers or mass rapists. Even then, absolute evidence should be provided.”
How much is mass?
Suppose a man murdered 3 little children. Another murdered 3 children and a woman. Still another murdered 15 people. All the murderers have witnesses to the crimes, they were also seen on video, finger prints, DNA, and confession. Now, which one of those murderers will you tolerate to be put to death?

I know what the bible says. Genesis 9:6.
 
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Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
Honestly it's funny seeing all the people who are anti death penalty. Normally in the rest of the threads they are hardcore conservative republican, but all of a sudden its nothing but a bunch of bleeding heart liberals.

Look if you live by the sword you die by the sword. I have no pity for murderers who get the death penalty.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
I never expected everyone to agree with me. I just offered my opinion and then get slammed by conservatives and called a liberal. I think you need to rethink who the intolerant ones are.
Nah, they didn't put you in the "slammer". They sentenced you to death. Whether by character assassination or via the "ignore" function, you don't fit into their society, so you must be terminated. It's the way of the self-righteous. Get used to it.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
God instituted it for certain crimes, "That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee. But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities: Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee" (Deuteronomy 19:10-13)
What about the instances where the person who wrongfully faced "capital punishment" was the "innocent blood"? You know, instances like Jesus Christ and Stephen? Even Judas recognized that he sinned in that he betrayed "innocent blood":

"Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that." (Matthew 27:3-4)

Dan58 said:
If you kill a murderer, he does not murder again. I'd say that's a definite deterrent to crime, and its why God commanded us to put the evil among us away; "The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you" (Deuteronomy 17: 7).
Why didn't you include the preceding verse in your "quote"? Here it is:

"At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death." (Deuteronomy 17:6)

"The law", which we're conveniently suddenly back under, required two or three witnesses in order for somebody to be put to death and even that system had its obvious problems because of FALSE WITNESSES. You know what FALSE WITNESSES are, don't you? They're the kind of folks who LIE...just like the FALSE WITNESSES who rose up against both Jesus and Stephen:

"And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people. Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake. Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God. And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council, And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law: For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us." (Acts 6:5-14)

It seems to me that the response of those today mirrors the response of those of Jesus' day in relation to the "innocent blood" that is wrongfully put to death:

"What is that to us?" (Matthew 27:4)

Again, when confronted with a woman who was worthy of "capital punishment" under the law of Moses, Jesus not only didn't condemn her to death when He told her to "go and sin no more", but He also determined exactly who is worthy of administering "capital punishment" when He said:

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." (John 8:7)

Amazingly, there are several people on this thread alone who apparently believe themselves to be "without sin" and therefore worthy of "casting stones". Even the self-righteous, religious hypocrites of old walked away, "being convicted by their own consciences" (John 8:9), but they were no match for the religious elite of today. Interestingly enough, there was One Who was present that day Who truly was "without sin" and, again, He didn't administer the "death penalty". You'd think that that would be enough to convince those who claim to be His followers, but, alas, you'd be gravely mistaken.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Seeing how some here believe that "murderers" ought to be put to death and seeing how some here quote "the law" when it is convenient for them to do so, I thought that I'd post the following:

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come over Jordan into the land of Canaan; Then ye shall appoint you cities to be cities of refuge for you; that the slayer may flee thither, which killeth any person at unawares. And they shall be unto you cities for refuge from the avenger; that the manslayer die not, until he stand before the congregation in judgment. And of these cities which ye shall give six cities shall ye have for refuge. Ye shall give three cities on this side Jordan, and three cities shall ye give in the land of Canaan, which shall be cities of refuge. These six cities shall be a refuge, both for the children of Israel, and for the stranger, and for the sojourner among them: that every one that killeth any person unawares may flee thither. And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. Or if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him. But if he thrust him of hatred, or hurl at him by laying of wait, that he die; Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die: he that smote him shall surely be put to death; for he is a murderer: the revenger of blood shall slay the murderer, when he meeteth him. But if he thrust him suddenly without enmity, or have cast upon him any thing without laying of wait, Or with any stone, wherewith a man may die, seeing him not, and cast it upon him, that he die, and was not his enemy, neither sought his harm: Then the congregation shall judge between the slayer and the revenger of blood according to these judgments: And the congregation shall deliver the slayer out of the hand of the revenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to the city of his refuge, whither he was fled: and he shall abide in it unto the death of the high priest, which was anointed with the holy oil. But if the slayer shall at any time come without the border of the city of his refuge, whither he was fled; And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill the slayer; he shall not be guilty of blood: Because he should have remained in the city of his refuge until the death of the high priest: but after the death of the high priest the slayer shall return into the land of his possession. So these things shall be for a statute of judgment unto you throughout your generations in all your dwellings. Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die. Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death. And ye shall take no satisfaction for him that is fled to the city of his refuge, that he should come again to dwell in the land, until the death of the priest. So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it." (Numbers 35:9-33)

Under "the law", the LORD instructed Moses to designate "cities of refuge" to which someone who killed someone "unawares" or without premeditated intent or accidentally might flee to be free from the revenger of blood until the death of the high priest. After the death of the high priest, the one who killed unintentionally was free to return back to his own city without any fear of retribution. What of the premeditated murderer? He was granted no such asylum, but instead he was to be put to death without any "satisfaction" or ransom. "See!", some here would exclaim, "God is for the capital punishment of murderers!" Under "the law", such certainly seems to be the case. Here's the thing, though...

Jesus described for us the actual intent of the law in His "Sermon on the Mount" and, in doing so, He described for us exactly who "murderers" are in God's sight:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing." (Matthew 5:21-26)

When Jesus said, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill (or literally "Thou shalt not murder"); and whosoever shall kill (literally "murder") shall be in danger of the judgment", He quoted unto them "the law" as was given to Moses. However, when Jesus continued on to say, "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire", He not only explained how that the true intent of God's law was to deal with matters of the heart and that unwarranted hatred constitutes "murder" in God's eyes, but He also established the principle for "judging" under the New Covenant. Yes, unwarranted "hatred" in one's heart constitutes as "MURDER" in God's eyes and John later taught the very same thing:

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (I John 3:15)

Here then is my question for everybody here:

Judging by God's standard, who among us hasn't been (or presently isn't) guilty of MURDER?

If all murderers should be put to death, then why are you still alive? Isn't your very life a testimony against your own stated beliefs? Ought you not be turning yourselves in and submitting yourselves to "capital punishment"?

Nah, it's always easier to kill "the other guy", right? This whole conversation reminds me of an analogy that I heard Ray Comfort give many years ago:

"A little girl saw a sheep lying in the green grass and she said to her mother, "Mommy, look how white that sheep is." Then it began to snow. The little girl then said to her mother, "Mommy, look how dirty that sheep is."

Same sheep. Different background. Ray's/my point? It's so easy for the self-righteous to look "clean" when they compare themselves to the "serial killers" of this world. However, against the snow white backdrop of Christ's righteousness and the type of righteousness which He demands, there's really no difference at all between the "serial killers" AND OURSELVES. Be careful that while you're busy condemning others you're not busy condemning yourselves:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." (Matthew 7:1-5)

Having mercifully been forgiven of my own "serial murders" when I repented of the same and having had my own physical life spared, I'm more than willing to seek the same type of mercy for other "serial murderers".
 
K

KennethC

Guest
You stated that you are opposed to the DP because of mercy, love, forgiveness.
But when we apply that mercy, love, and forgiveness to life in prison. You sing a different tune.

Ridiculous. Opposed to the death penalty because we are to forgive.

"Love and mercy requires protection for others as well, it can not be just one sided." Where's the forgiveness?
"Mercy can't be just one sided."
"Love can't be just one sided."
But you didn't include forgiveness, why?

Love, mercy, forgiveness, one sided?

Genesis 9:6 The Lord is for the death penalty in that verse. Yes He is. What is the basis of the DP according to the Lord?
Ken, who are we to forgive? When are we to forgive? Does our forgiving someone of murder make null and void the command in Genesis 9:6?
You assume keeping a murder alive on death row is an act of love toward the family of the murdered victim. Where did you come with that assumption?









I did to include forgiveness as here is my quote;

Love, mercy, and forgiveness is to be shown to all people not just victims, and not just offenders, but both equally !!!

If you are talking about why I did not mention it for victims, why would a victim need to be forgiven as they are the one the sin was done to, not the one who committed the sin.

Once again Genesis 9:6 is part of the old covenants standards, not the new covenant as the Lord said we are to show love, mercy, and forgiveness instead and then He also adds we are to pray, do good to them.

We walk by the perfect law of liberty (Christ teaching and commands from the gospels), not the oldness of the letter of the law from the old covenant.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Honestly it's funny seeing all the people who are anti death penalty. Normally in the rest of the threads they are hardcore conservative republican, but all of a sudden its nothing but a bunch of bleeding heart liberals.

Look if you live by the sword you die by the sword. I have no pity for murderers who get the death penalty.

Being against the death penalty does not make one a bleeding heart liberal.

We need to get out of this labeling that society has so badly defiled people's thought processes, for by doing so with keeping with these faulty labels you fall right in the hands of big government control.

Until people start realizing not all conservatives think alike, not all liberals think alike, not all Republicans think alike, and not all Democrats think alike government control will not end. You play into their petty games of keeping people divided when you pit one against the other all the time.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Seeing how some here believe that "murderers" ought to be put to death and seeing how some here quote "the law" when it is convenient for them to do so, I thought that I'd post the following:

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come over Jordan into the land of Canaan; Then ye shall appoint you cities to be cities of refuge for you; that the slayer may flee thither, which killeth any person at unawares. And they shall be unto you cities for refuge from the avenger; that the manslayer die not, until he stand before the congregation in judgment. And of these cities which ye shall give six cities shall ye have for refuge. Ye shall give three cities on this side Jordan, and three cities shall ye give in the land of Canaan, which shall be cities of refuge. These six cities shall be a refuge, both for the children of Israel, and for the stranger, and for the sojourner among them: that every one that killeth any person unawares may flee thither. And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. Or if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him. But if he thrust him of hatred, or hurl at him by laying of wait, that he die; Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die: he that smote him shall surely be put to death; for he is a murderer: the revenger of blood shall slay the murderer, when he meeteth him. But if he thrust him suddenly without enmity, or have cast upon him any thing without laying of wait, Or with any stone, wherewith a man may die, seeing him not, and cast it upon him, that he die, and was not his enemy, neither sought his harm: Then the congregation shall judge between the slayer and the revenger of blood according to these judgments: And the congregation shall deliver the slayer out of the hand of the revenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to the city of his refuge, whither he was fled: and he shall abide in it unto the death of the high priest, which was anointed with the holy oil. But if the slayer shall at any time come without the border of the city of his refuge, whither he was fled; And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill the slayer; he shall not be guilty of blood: Because he should have remained in the city of his refuge until the death of the high priest: but after the death of the high priest the slayer shall return into the land of his possession. So these things shall be for a statute of judgment unto you throughout your generations in all your dwellings. Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die. Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death. And ye shall take no satisfaction for him that is fled to the city of his refuge, that he should come again to dwell in the land, until the death of the priest. So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it." (Numbers 35:9-33)

Under "the law", the LORD instructed Moses to designate "cities of refuge" to which someone who killed someone "unawares" or without premeditated intent or accidentally might flee to be free from the revenger of blood until the death of the high priest. After the death of the high priest, the one who killed unintentionally was free to return back to his own city without any fear of retribution. What of the premeditated murderer? He was granted no such asylum, but instead he was to be put to death without any "satisfaction" or ransom. "See!", some here would exclaim, "God is for the capital punishment of murderers!" Under "the law", such certainly seems to be the case. Here's the thing, though...

Jesus described for us the actual intent of the law in His "Sermon on the Mount" and, in doing so, He described for us exactly who "murderers" are in God's sight:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing." (Matthew 5:21-26)

When Jesus said, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill (or literally "Thou shalt not murder"); and whosoever shall kill (literally "murder") shall be in danger of the judgment", He quoted unto them "the law" as was given to Moses. However, when Jesus continued on to say, "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire", He not only explained how that the true intent of God's law was to deal with matters of the heart and that unwarranted hatred constitutes "murder" in God's eyes, but He also established the principle for "judging" under the New Covenant. Yes, unwarranted "hatred" in one's heart constitutes as "MURDER" in God's eyes and John later taught the very same thing:

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (I John 3:15)

Here then is my question for everybody here:

Judging by God's standard, who among us hasn't been (or presently isn't) guilty of MURDER?

If all murderers should be put to death, then why are you still alive? Isn't your very life a testimony against your own stated beliefs? Ought you not be turning yourselves in and submitting yourselves to "capital punishment"?

Nah, it's always easier to kill "the other guy", right? This whole conversation reminds me of an analogy that I heard Ray Comfort give many years ago:

"A little girl saw a sheep lying in the green grass and she said to her mother, "Mommy, look how white that sheep is." Then it began to snow. The little girl then said to her mother, "Mommy, look how dirty that sheep is."

Same sheep. Different background. Ray's/my point? It's so easy for the self-righteous to look "clean" when they compare themselves to the "serial killers" of this world. However, against the snow white backdrop of Christ's righteousness and the type of righteousness which He demands, there's really no difference at all between the "serial killers" AND OURSELVES. Be careful that while you're busy condemning others you're not busy condemning yourselves:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." (Matthew 7:1-5)

Having mercifully been forgiven of my own "serial murders" when I repented of the same and having had my own physical life spared, I'm more than willing to seek the same type of mercy for other "serial murderers".

I asked them that same very question multiple times about should they not also be put to death then according to the law and they refused to answer it. The only one who did answer tried to explain it away that it was only for the Jews.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
My reasoning is this: A death sentence would keep a person from heaven, therefore eliminating his chances of eternal salvation. Consequently that would ultimately be an eternal judgement, and only God should make that.
Since I wouldn't normally wouldn't even consider a death sentence for anyone other than for the offense of murder,

Since it is written in 1 John 3:15 "...and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." it would seem that you reasoning is somewhat skewed from the get go.

That isn't in taking into consideration that nobody has eternal life abiding in them, since the principle of eternal life is having no beginning if nor end of life, which are just two the precepts that define the principle of eternal, which means I would have to lie to myself in order to believe that I didn't have a beginning of life.

And while I But anyone takes the promise of everlasting life seriously, they don't confuse the principles of mortality, everlasting life, and eternal life.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Since I wouldn't normally wouldn't even consider a death sentence for anyone other than for the offense of murder,

Since it is written in 1 John 3:15 "...and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." it would seem that you reasoning is somewhat skewed from the get go.

That isn't in taking into consideration that nobody has eternal life abiding in them, since the principle of eternal life is having no beginning if nor end of life, which are just two the precepts that define the principle of eternal, which means I would have to lie to myself in order to believe that I didn't have a beginning of life.

And while I But anyone takes the promise of everlasting life seriously, they don't confuse the principles of mortality, everlasting life, and eternal life.

Actually 1 John 3:15 does not skew phil112 reasoning, as if you go by the biblical definition of murder then those who hate others are also guilty of murder in their heart.

Then if you take Jesus words that all sins can be forgiven of man, except for the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, then that means that even the sin of murder can be forgiven.

That means a person who commits murder can repent and turn away from committing that sin again, and be saved just like any other of us sinners were forgiven of our sins. If you take and take that option away from them to repent, as in never minister to them to even know the truth in the gospel of the Lord then you have passed judgment on their salvation instead of leaving it to the Lord.

Hatred places one as just as guilty as the act, and the death penalty is a sign of not truly forgiving a person and showing mercy to them.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
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Judging by God's standard, who among us hasn't been (or presently isn't) guilty of MURDER?
I AM.

I have never killed a man that I couldn't destroy his soul too.

But then again I don't go around judging others by God's standards but rather go about living my life by holding on to God's standards I have and obtaining the ones I don't


If all murderers should be put to death, then why are you still alive? Isn't your very life a testimony against your own stated beliefs? Ought you not be turning yourselves in and submitting yourselves to "capital punishment"?

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By the hand of God I was raised from the grave, and by the hand of God I will return to the grave. And if I could say one thing that I knew, it would be true and righteous is the Word of the LORD. If you feel like testing the spirit, feel free.
 

GuessWho

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2014
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Here then is my question for everybody here:

Judging by God's standard, who among us hasn't been (or presently isn't) guilty of MURDER?
I called my husband fool because I was angry at him. I did not hit him with a knife and kill him.

I think that when Jesus Christ addressed the sermon on the mountain, He was raising the standards of holy life. It is not sufficient to not kill someone in order to be good. Not killing a person is not something impossible to do for civilized, normal people who have self-control and empathy for the other one. Jesus Christ did not treat us like we are barbarians who constantly need to be reminded that "we shall not kill". No. Jesus Christ treated us like we are capable of more noble things and we are seeking for perfection. Christ said "ye are gods" because He knew our desire to be better persons.

So, if you want to be better, simply not killing someone is not enough. You shall not call the other one a fool and dismiss him.

The thread is about punishment for men who literally take other men's life. I don't know yet if I am for or against death penalty, both sides bring good arguments.
 
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KennethC

Guest
Here then is my question for everybody here:

Judging by God's standard, who among us hasn't been (or presently isn't) guilty of MURDER?
I called my husband fool because I was angry at him. I did not hit him with a knife and kill him.

I think that when Jesus Christ addressed the sermon on the mountain, He was raising the standards of holy life. It is not sufficient to not kill someone in order to be good. Not killing a person is not something impossible to do for civilized, normal people who have self-control and empathy for the other one. Jesus Christ did not treat us like we are barbarians who constantly need to be reminded that "we shall not kill". No. Jesus Christ treated us like we are capable of more noble things and we are seeking for perfection. Christ said "ye are gods" because He knew our desire to be better persons.

So, if you want to be better, simply not killing someone is not enough. You shall not call the other one a fool and dismiss him.

The thread is about punishment for men who literally take other men's life. I don't know yet if I am for or against death penalty, both sides bring good arguments.
I simply stick to these three standards that the Lord gave us in commands: Love, Mercy, Forgiveness

If they do not follow under those standards He told us to walk in, to me they have no business in this faith in Jesus.
 

GuessWho

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2014
1,227
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KennethC,

Your comments did make me reconsider my position towards death penalty. But I have to admit that sometimes, the Jew inside of me (we all have one in a lesser or greater proportion) is more powerful than all christian argument for mercy, and cries for JUSTICE.
 
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KennethC

Guest
KennethC,

Your comments did make me reconsider my position towards death penalty. But I have to admit that sometimes, the Jew inside of me (we all have one in a lesser or greater proportion) is more powerful than all christian argument for mercy, and cries for JUSTICE.

I understand as I use to be one of those that agreed with the death penalty and even held resentment toward some people who committed certain crimes.

When I gave myself to the Lord and then later did a few years of prison ministry He opened my eyes to some truth that I did not realize, and all that resentment, uncaring, and unforgiving attitude I had was lifted away.

I think all who are part of the ministry should take at least a couple months if they can and go talk to some of these people sitting in prison to get a better understanding then just continuing in those ways that stems from resentment that society and media lies to the public about these people.

If people can not change then none of us could be saved !!!
 
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JesusistheChrist

Guest
The thread is about punishment for men who literally take other men's life.
This doesn't dismiss the fact that God still views unwarranted hatred as murder. IOW, in His eyes, there's no difference between somebody physically killing someone and somebody harboring unwarranted hatred for another in their heart and neither individual will inherit eternal life apart from genuine repentance.
 
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BarlyGurl

Guest
This doesn't dismiss the fact that God still views unwarranted hatred as murder. IOW, in His eyes, there's no difference between somebody physically killing someone and somebody harboring unwarranted hatred for another in their heart and neither individual will inherit eternal life apart from genuine repentance.
I notice a new modifier in making your distinction. UNWARRANTED.... so there is such thing as WARRANTED HATRED? How do you define that???
 
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JesusistheChrist

Guest
I notice a new modifier in making your distinction. UNWARRANTED.... so there is such thing as WARRANTED HATRED? How do you define that???
That's a fair question. I'm referring to that which I quoted earlier:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing." (Matthew 5:21-26)

It's the "without a cause" part that makes in "unwarranted" in my estimation/understanding. IOW, we could have just "cause" for being angry with somebody, but even then we're instructed to "be angry and sin not". I probably should have said "unwarranted anger" as opposed to "unwarranted hatred", but Jesus did speak of those who "hated Him without a cause". This leads me to consider that there could be "warranted hatred" or hatred with a "cause". I hope that this clears things up a bit.