Sabbath: Colossians 2:16-17 compared with Hebrews 10:1-2/Judging Non-Sabbathkeepers

[sparkman]

Here's a question for those who claim that the Sabbath and annual festivals must be observed as a requirement or condition or necessary fruit of salvation.

Why does Hebrews 10:1-2 clearly use the same language with regards to shadows, in reference to animal sacrifices, that Colossians 2:16-17 does in regards to the Sabbath, new moons, and festivals?

And, who is it that is usually involved in judging? It is Sabbathkeepers who are judging those within the church for not observing them, as we find today.

Nonbelievers don't care what someone does with their Saturday.

Hebrews 10: 10 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?

Colossians 2:16-17 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

The same exact language is used in regards to animal sacrifices as is used regarding the Sabbath, festivals, and new moons. They are placed in the same class of applicability.

This is why Seventh Day Adventists deny that the word Sabbath means the weekly Sabbath in Colossians 2:16-17. They know it would be the end of their Sabbath doctrine if it does refer to the weekly Sabbath...which it does..the same Greek word sabbaton is used 59 other times in the New Testament where they acknowledge that it means the weekly Sabbath.

If you want to keep the Sabbath and festivals, keep them. Just don't judge others for not keeping them, or try to teach it applies to New Covenant Christians.

 

[sparkman]

In fact, I want to make it clear that the biggest reason why I will not associate with Sabbathkeepers is because the ones I associated with denied the salvation of non-Sabbathkeepers. I could just as easily worship on Saturday if I knew a church which was focused on the true gospel, and didn't judge non-Sabbathkeepers. However the focus of their message is invariably about prophetic nonsense, the need to keep the Sabbath, and proclaiming others to be false Christians who are following a counterfeit Christianity. The message is not about Jesus Christ and placing your faith in Him and his perfect sacrifice.

 

[sparkman]

By the way, the "shadows" reference may relate to Plato's allegory of the cave. Paul may have been exposed to this through the teachings of Gamaliel.

The allegory involves men who are only exposed to shadows of real objects due to the way they are imprisonment in a dark cave. They see reflections of objects in the real world against the wall of the cave, but they don't see the real thing..only the shadows. When they are finally released, and they experience the real thing, there is no way that they want to go back to the shadows.

The Old Covenant is a mere shadow of the reality, which is Christ.

Whether Paul knew the Socratic cave allegory I don't know but the general point still applies.

 

[flob]

those who claim that the Sabbath and annual festivals must be observed as a requirement or condition or necessary fruit of salvation.

Are there ones actually that way, here?

 

[valiant]

those who claim that the Sabbath and annual festivals must be observed as a requirement or condition or necessary fruit of salvation.

Are there ones actually that way, here?

we get them now and again.

 

[Yonah]

seems to me your exposure to those who choose to observe these feast, the 1 st of which is the Sabbath (see lev. 23) is limited. I say this because I have observed these feast for years now and most I meet and associate with would never advocate judging others in the manner you have described, as far as the reference to "prophetic nonsense" the teaching I am involved with teach scripture in its context and according to the truth shown forth in the same, just because some have mistreated others in this regard due to pride or other reasons does not by any means indicate this is the norm, to lump all into this same category is really not fair to those who choose to show the love of our Savior to all we connect with... not all of us are so prideful as to think to judge others salvation.. that's not our place and it was never the intention of the ones who I am blessed to know and fellowship with, so maybe it would be better if you were less general in your denunciation of those who choose to obey what they have been led to be pleasing in His sight, shalom...

 

[sparkman]

What percentage of Sabbath/festival keepers do you think are Armstrongites and Seventh Day Adventists?

Most of them are.

I have repeatedly stated that I do not judge those observe the Sabbath and the festivals without claiming others need to, as conditions, requirements, or necessary fruits of salvation. The number of such individuals is very high, and as you know, I am speaking from my own experience. I did exactly the same thing.

My purpose here is to make sure that less experienced Christians aren't led into doctrinal error or bullied by such individuals. A lot of bullying goes on here in this regard. I will be educating them on the logical flaws regarding this subject so that they can defend themselves from such bullies and heretics who would trouble them.

In addition, those who claim that they don't judge others acknowledge that others should be keeping them too, and that it is part of God's expectations for them.

seems to me your exposure to those who choose to observe these feast, the 1 st of which is the Sabbath (see lev. 23) is limited. I say this because I have observed these feast for years now and most I meet and associate with would never advocate judging others in the manner you have described, as far as the reference to "prophetic nonsense" the teaching I am involved with teach scripture in its context and according to the truth shown forth in the same, just because some have mistreated others in this regard due to pride or other reasons does not by any means indicate this is the norm, to lump all into this same category is really not fair to those who choose to show the love of our Savior to all we connect with... not all of us are so prideful as to think to judge others salvation.. that's not our place and it was never the intention of the ones who I am blessed to know and fellowship with, so maybe it would be better if you were less general in your denunciation of those who choose to obey what they have been led to be pleasing in His sight, shalom...

 

[sparkman]

Are there ones actually that way, here?

Yes, but a lot of them aren't so aggressive anymore lately. I haven't seen it going on so much in the past few weeks.

 

[sparkman]

By the way this should be Hebrews 10:1-2 and not Hebrews 10:10.

Here's a question for those who claim that the Sabbath and annual festivals must be observed as a requirement or condition or necessary fruit of salvation.

Why does Hebrews 10:1-2 clearly use the same language with regards to shadows, in reference to animal sacrifices, that Colossians 2:16-17 does in regards to the Sabbath, new moons, and festivals?

And, who is it that is usually involved in judging? It is Sabbathkeepers who are judging those within the church for not observing them, as we find today.

Nonbelievers don't care what someone does with their Saturday.

Hebrews 10: 10 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?

Colossians 2:16-17 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

The same exact language is used in regards to animal sacrifices as is used regarding the Sabbath, festivals, and new moons. They are placed in the same class of applicability.

This is why Seventh Day Adventists deny that the word Sabbath means the weekly Sabbath in Colossians 2:16-17. They know it would be the end of their Sabbath doctrine if it does refer to the weekly Sabbath...which it does..the same Greek word sabbaton is used 59 other times in the New Testament where they acknowledge that it means the weekly Sabbath.

If you want to keep the Sabbath and festivals, keep them. Just don't judge others for not keeping them, or try to teach it applies to New Covenant Christians.

 

[Angela53510]

Many Sabbath keepers are Hebrew Roots Movement. You might want to look into that a bit more, Sparkman.

What is the Hebrew Roots movement?

 

[sparkman]

Let me ask this Yonah..do most Sabbath/festival keepers you know teach that normal Christians are following a counterfeit Christianity that was influenced by Constantine or Rome to reject the Sabbath and "true religion"? That's been my experience. They basically have a conspiracy theory view that Satan has sabotaged "true religion", of which they are a part of.

seems to me your exposure to those who choose to observe these feast, the 1 st of which is the Sabbath (see lev. 23) is limited. I say this because I have observed these feast for years now and most I meet and associate with would never advocate judging others in the manner you have described, as far as the reference to "prophetic nonsense" the teaching I am involved with teach scripture in its context and according to the truth shown forth in the same, just because some have mistreated others in this regard due to pride or other reasons does not by any means indicate this is the norm, to lump all into this same category is really not fair to those who choose to show the love of our Savior to all we connect with... not all of us are so prideful as to think to judge others salvation.. that's not our place and it was never the intention of the ones who I am blessed to know and fellowship with, so maybe it would be better if you were less general in your denunciation of those who choose to obey what they have been led to be pleasing in His sight, shalom...

 

[KohenMatt]

What percentage of Sabbath/festival keepers do you think are Armstrongites and Seventh Day Adventists?

Most of them are.

I disagree.
I have been keeping the Sabbath for over 10 years and I had never heard of this Armstrong guy.
Few of the SDA's I know believe Sabbath is a requirement for salvation.

I have repeatedly stated that I do not judge those observe the Sabbath and the festivals without claiming others need to, as conditions, requirements, or necessary fruits of salvation. The number of such individuals is very high, and as you know, I am speaking from my own experience. I did exactly the same thing.

My purpose here is to make sure that less experienced Christians aren't led into doctrinal error or bullied by such individuals. A lot of bullying goes on here in this regard. I will be educating them on the logical flaws regarding this subject so that they can defend themselves from such bullies and heretics who would trouble them.

Would you mind mentioning those people in this forum who promote the Sabbath as a condition of salvation or means to it? If your purpose here is to take care of less experienced Christians, then point out those who are in error so those less experienced Christians can be aware of the wolves in sheep's clothing. Please give us the names.

I would also like to point out that if you claim there is a lot of bullying by individuals who keep the Sabbath, you should also take a look at those who bully others because they keep the Sabbath. You yourself have created at least 3 threads over the last 24 hours teaching against Torah-observance.

If you're going to come against bullying, then come against all ​bullying.

 

[sparkman]

At least two of the individuals on this forum are Armstrongites. I have already identified them in other posts. You can seek out those posts.

Certainly you have heard of Herbert Armstrong before, as you said you have read threads on my former experience with Worldwide Church of God. Most of those thread mention his name.

Seventh Day Adventists teach that Sabbath-breaking will be the Mark of the Beast in the end times, and that Christians who fail to keep the Sabbath will be lost. This is a common beief amongst Sabbathkeepers.

Regarding my threads, I am educating those who don't keep the Sabbath against common arguments that Sabbathkeepers and Torah observers use to convince them that they need to. They are largely unequipped to refute their arguments.

If you want to see examples of individuals who make similar claims, search threads created by Eliwood. He is also here under various other usernames which have been banned, including Gespent, Mortis, and at least two other usernames. In these threads he posted several mimes from 119ministries.com, including one that inferred that non-Sabbathkeepers are going to eternal punisment. The message of the meme was "Depart from me..you who practice lawlessness" applies to non-Sabbathkeepers. In addition, he takes videos from 119ministries.com and transcribes them into words, speaking to non-Sabbatarians in a very condemning manner.

Here are examples of this bullying:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/114490-unanswerable-questions.html

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115932-paul-you-never-knew-2.html

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/114682-unanswerable-questions-extended.html

Notice the memes that he's attached to the threads. The implications are that non-Sabbatarians are going to eternal punishment and that they are lukewarm.

Notice his condescension toward non-Sabbatarians, and how he claims that we are "ignorant and unstable" in our interpretation of Scripture.

By the way, he keeps coming back under false names lying about his details. I asked him about this, and he says that he does it in order to refute the enemies of God, and refers to incidences where this happened in the Old Testament. This really gives a lot of credibility to his argument.

I realize it would be unfair to attribute his behavior to all those claiming to be Torah observant, but on the other hand I am going to equip nonSabbatarians with enough of an understanding of the logical fallacies behind their arguments so that they are equipped to recognize the judgments which are coming from the Torah observers.

I disagree.
I have been keeping the Sabbath for over 10 years and I had never heard of this Armstrong guy.
Few of the SDA's I know believe Sabbath is a requirement for salvation.



Would you mind mentioning those people in this forum who promote the Sabbath as a condition of salvation or means to it? If your purpose here is to take care of less experienced Christians, then point out those who are in error so those less experienced Christians can be aware of the wolves in sheep's clothing. Please give us the names.

I would also like to point out that if you claim there is a lot of bullying by individuals who keep the Sabbath, you should also take a look at those who bully others because they keep the Sabbath. You yourself have created at least 3 threads over the last 24 hours teaching against Torah-observance.

If you're going to come against bullying, then come against all ​bullying.

 

[sparkman]

You can be sure that I will teach against those who claim the Sabbath, holy days, clean and unclean meats, and physical circumcision are part of God's expectations for New Covenant believers, because it is false teaching.

If people want to do those things as a matter of private conviction, fine. Once they start trying to influence others in this regard, they step into a different realm and open themselves up to having their teachings compared with Scripture on the matter.

I disagree.
I have been keeping the Sabbath for over 10 years and I had never heard of this Armstrong guy.
Few of the SDA's I know believe Sabbath is a requirement for salvation.



Would you mind mentioning those people in this forum who promote the Sabbath as a condition of salvation or means to it? If your purpose here is to take care of less experienced Christians, then point out those who are in error so those less experienced Christians can be aware of the wolves in sheep's clothing. Please give us the names.

I would also like to point out that if you claim there is a lot of bullying by individuals who keep the Sabbath, you should also take a look at those who bully others because they keep the Sabbath. You yourself have created at least 3 threads over the last 24 hours teaching against Torah-observance.

If you're going to come against bullying, then come against all ​bullying.

 

[sparkman]

By the way, if a nonSabbathkeeper told someone on the forum that an individual MUST NOT observe the Sabbath or festivals or unclean/clean meat laws, then I would refute that notion as Romans 14 says clearly that the issues of days and foods are are irrelevant.

The issue regarding Sabbath, clean and unclean meats, and festivals is a matter of individual preference. As long as someone doesn't insinuate that they are conditions, requirements, or necessary fruits of salvation, and doesn't judge other believers for not keeping them, I have no issue with them.

However, it seems like almost every Torah observer I have interacted with, does this. They think it's part of God's expectation for a New Covenant believer, regardless of whether they link it as a prerequisite for salvation or not, and they judge other believers as lukewarm or ignorant or disobedient for not observing these ceremonial and ritualistic elements.

Matt, can you clearly state that you do not think other believers should observe these things, but that you simply do so out of preference? That is not the view of most Torah observers. They think other believers should be doing the same things, and that in itself is a judgment.

I disagree.
I have been keeping the Sabbath for over 10 years and I had never heard of this Armstrong guy.
Few of the SDA's I know believe Sabbath is a requirement for salvation.



Would you mind mentioning those people in this forum who promote the Sabbath as a condition of salvation or means to it? If your purpose here is to take care of less experienced Christians, then point out those who are in error so those less experienced Christians can be aware of the wolves in sheep's clothing. Please give us the names.

I would also like to point out that if you claim there is a lot of bullying by individuals who keep the Sabbath, you should also take a look at those who bully others because they keep the Sabbath. You yourself have created at least 3 threads over the last 24 hours teaching against Torah-observance.

If you're going to come against bullying, then come against all ​bullying.

 

[sparkman]

By the way, I created a poll regarding Sabbathkeepers' attitude toward the Sabbath. This is a good test of my views, if Sabbathkeepers will answer it truthfully.

Here are the options:

1. Keeping the Sabbath is a requirement or condition of salvation.
2 Keeping the Sabbath is a necesary fruit of salvation (meaning that the saved person will eventually learn about and
keep the Sabbath).
3. A New Covenant believer should keep the Sabbath, and breaking the Sabbath is a sin.
4. A New Covenant believer should keep the Sabbath, but breaking the Sabbath is not a sin.
5. Sabbath observance is totally a matter of preference and a New Covenant believer should not feel guilty if he does not
observe it.

I have no issues with individuals in group 5, and few issues with those in group 4. I have a lot of issues with those in groups 1, 2, 3, and so does Scripture.

I'd like to see you answer the poll, as well as other Sabbathkeepers on the forum. I don't think many of them will, though.

I disagree.
I have been keeping the Sabbath for over 10 years and I had never heard of this Armstrong guy.
Few of the SDA's I know believe Sabbath is a requirement for salvation.



Would you mind mentioning those people in this forum who promote the Sabbath as a condition of salvation or means to it? If your purpose here is to take care of less experienced Christians, then point out those who are in error so those less experienced Christians can be aware of the wolves in sheep's clothing. Please give us the names.

I would also like to point out that if you claim there is a lot of bullying by individuals who keep the Sabbath, you should also take a look at those who bully others because they keep the Sabbath. You yourself have created at least 3 threads over the last 24 hours teaching against Torah-observance.

If you're going to come against bullying, then come against all ​bullying.

 

[KohenMatt]

I have repeatedly stated that I do not judge those observe the Sabbath and the festivals without claiming others need to, as conditions, requirements, or necessary fruits of salvation. The number of such individuals is very high, and as you know, I am speaking from my own experience. I did exactly the same thing.

My purpose here is to make sure that less experienced Christians aren't led into doctrinal error or bullied by such individuals. A lot of bullying goes on here in this regard. I will be educating them on the logical flaws regarding this subject so that they can defend themselves from such bullies and heretics who would trouble them.

Would you mind mentioning those people in this forum who promote the Sabbath as a condition of salvation or means to it? If your purpose here is to take care of less experienced Christians, then point out those who are in error so those less experienced Christians can be aware of the wolves in sheep's clothing. Please give us the names.

After I asked sparkman this question, he responded to me in private, but mentioned that prove-all and john832 believed this way. I wanted to offer these folks to respond and clarify if they choose.

 

[sparkman]

After I asked sparkman this question, he responded to me in private, but mentioned that prove-all and john832 believed this way. I wanted to offer these folks to respond and clarify if they choose.

You can ask them directly if they believe the teachings of Herbert Armstrong and if they believe the Sabbath is a requirement or condition of salvation.

Since you want to make this a public issue, feel free. My guess is they will evade a direct answer.

 

[flob]

Lord deliver us from 'Torah observance.' My goodness,
Galatians

 

[prove-all]

Here are examples of this bullying:

Notice his condescension toward non-Sabbatarians, and how he claims that we are "ignorant and unstable" in our interpretation of Scripture.

.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/114490-unanswerable-questions.html

- so these bible verses are bullying you? thats what was posted, how are they attacking you?

The Unanswerable Questions

"Test everything, hold fast to that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

If you were to ask 10 fellow christians which commandments of the Bible we should be following today, you would likely get 10 different answers. It's common today for people to say that certain parts of God's law have been "done away with" or "nailed to the cross" or "only for the jews" or "fulfilled so that we don't have to obey them anymore". But is this the truth?

This thread is addressed to anyone who believes that certain parts of the law no longer apply. See how many of the following questions you can answer without causing contradiction in scripture. Please keep in mind, the purpose here is to study the word of God, and to seek his will. We need to leave personal feelings and pre-concieved ideas out of our reading, and ask ourselves, "what does God want". I am not attemping to cause any hostility or division here. Only to reveal the truth.

1. If the law of God is perfect, how can we say that what was perfect has been made better?
"The law of the Lord is perfect" (psalm 19:7)

2. If the law of God is freedom. how can freedom be "bondage" as many ministers label it as today?
"I will always obey your law, or ever and ever. I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts. "(psalm 119:44-45)

3. Can what is declared to be true become untrue?
"Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights." (psalm 119:143)


4. Can the way of righteousness change? Especially after God repeatedly says throughout scripture that He never changes?
“Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people in whose heart is My law." (Isaiah 51:7)

5. If the law of God is forever, when did "forever" become temporary?

Sabbath = Forever (Lev. 16:31)
Covenant = Forever (1 Chron 16:15)
Law = Forever (psalm 119:160)
Word = Forever (Isaiah 40:8)

6. Since the Law of God is what defines sin, can what is defined as sin suddenly become good and acceptable?
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)

7. If God is the word, and God does not change, how can we say the word of God has changed?
(John 1:1) (Malachi 3:6)

8. If we are to delight in the law, when did it stop being a delight?
"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man."(Romans 7:22) (psalm 1:2)

9. If Christ walked according to law of God, and we are to follow Christ's example, why do we not also follow the law of God?

10. If keeping all of God's commandments is the whole duty of man, is that no longer true?
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

11. If ALL scripture is instruction in righteousness, why do so many christians think that we are not supposed to practice all scripture?
(1 Timothy 3:16)

12. Mathew 5:17-18 specifically says that the law of God cannot change until heavens and earth pass away. So why is it so commonly taught that the law HAS changed, even though christ warned that those who promote this false teaching will be called "least in the kingdom of heaven"?

13. If Christ said to observe everything that is taught from Moses' seat, why refuse to do what Christ said?
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." (Mathew 23:1-3)

14. If Paul said that he obeyed God's law, and that there is no difference between jew and greek, how can we feel comfortable plucking small snippets out of Paul's letters, and using them to teach that the law of God has been abolished?

15. How can Paul be teaching people to follow God's law, but be against obeying God's law at the same time?
"Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no means. Rather, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31)




16. If we are to love God by keeping His commandments, why do we keep only some of His commandments?
"This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome" (1 john 5:2-3)

17. Why do so many people mistakingly use Pauls letters to teach that certain laws of God no longer apply when Peter warned against this? Based on the following passage, Paul's letters are probably the worst books of the bible to use when it comes to teaching against God's commandments....

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position."(2 Peter 3:15-17)

- show me what verse above offends you or not believe ?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115932-paul-you-never-knew-2.html

-know idea who you say accuse or bully you in this link above



http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/114682-unanswerable-questions-extended.html

- he repeated bible verses , you attacked him,
you have been condescending to sabbath keepers too.




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