Sabbath: Colossians 2:16-17 compared with Hebrews 10:1-2/Judging Non-Sabbathkeepers

sparkman · Jul 10, 2015

Here's another one. Go back to the original post to verify. Notice that prove-all is mentioned as one who is "in on the secret".

Here is another remark that john832 made.

I will provide the context.

Armstrongites think that everyone else is blinded and does not have a relationship with God except for them, including "so-called Christians" who are following a "counterfeit Christianity".

Google "Herbert Armstrong" and "so-called Christians" or "Herbert Armstrong" and "counterfeit Christianity" if you want proof that this was part of the teaching of Herbert Armstrong.

Anyways, prove-all and john832 are basically saying you guys will remember how they tried to tell you the truth but you wouldn't listen. They think they will be born into the God family, as part of the Godhead, at the resurrection. They are living a life now working toward perfection so they will be born into the God family. It is very similar to Mormonism. They view themselves as gods in embryonic form.

As mentioned before, I was an Armstrongite so I know exactly what they believe. I bought into it totally myself as a young man.

john832 said:

prove-all · Jul 10, 2015

sparkman said:

even Jesus threw them out of the temple for waisting Gods time, on the Sabbath

sparkman · Jul 10, 2015

KohenMatt said:

Regarding judging non-Sabbathkeepers, here's an example of one guy on the forum who keeps coming back under false usernames. Notice how he inferred that non-Toray observers are going to eternal punishment.

Matt, don't you really think this is an act of judgment? Or are you ok with this? By the way, he is on your friend list under one of his aliases (Mortis). This is the guy prove-all is criticizing me for getting banned.

Notice that he laughs over people getting sent to eternal torment for violating the Old Covenant.

He has at least two other usernames active right now.

Eliwood said:

prove-all · Jul 10, 2015

sparkman said:

I see you are still labeling people for there views,

you really think God if happy with you and your condemnation,

something i have not done to you or others.

are you going to start calling me names for not answering you again to your liking?

you have allready called me names and insulted me before about this subject..

so go ahead talk behind my back to others, God will be your judge not me.

sparkman · Jul 10, 2015

KohenMatt said:

Regarding judging non-Sabbathkeepers, here's an example of one guy on the forum who keeps coming back under false usernames. Notice how he inferred that non-Toray observers are going to eternal punishment. See the meme attached.

Matt, don't you really think this is an act of judgment? Or are you ok with this? By the way, he is on your friend list under one of his aliases (Mortis). This is the guy prove-all is criticizing me for getting banned.

Notice that he laughs over people getting sent to eternal torment for violating the Old Covenant.

He has at least two other usernames active right now. He's been banned under 3 other ones.

Can you see any reason now why I have an issue with certain people who are pressing Torah observance and persecuting non-Torah observers? As I said, i will not allow others to be judged or persecuted for not keeping the terms of the Old Covenant which don't apply to them anyways if I read such a post.

Eliwood said:

prove-all · Jul 10, 2015

sparkman said:

I critized you for saying that he bullyed you, for posting bible verses .

you attacked him for posting scripture in my view, and are still judging others even now.

sparkman · Jul 10, 2015

prove-all said:

Do you think it is ok to laugh at the prospect of anyone going to eternal punishment? That is exactly what he did.

He didn't simply quote Bible verses. He showed extreme contempt as he did throughout the thread.

sparkman · Jul 10, 2015

prove-all said:

He didn't bully me. I am well capable of defending myself against those who claim the Old Covenant is in effect. He was trying to bully other believers who aren't as experienced in that area. He didn't just post Scripture, he posted insults like that meme.

prove-all · Jul 11, 2015

sparkman said:

thats funny, Paul might have been influniced by plato. LoL

sparkman · Jul 11, 2015

prove-all said:

What's funny about this? He quoted from a pagan poet in Acts 17.

He was far more educated than you think. He had the equivalent of 2 PhDs.

phil112 · Jul 11, 2015

Angela53510 said:

Angela, I clicked on that link to see what it is. Here is where I stopped reading: "Those of the Hebrew Roots belief hold to the teaching that Christ's death on the cross did not end the Mosaic Covenant, but instead renewed it, expanded its message, and wrote it on the hearts of His true followers. They teach that the understanding of the New Testament can only come from a Hebrew perspective and that the teachings of the Apostle Paul are not understood clearly or taught correctly by Christian pastors today."

If that is indeed what they believe, they are wrong.
Scripture is clear, many places, about the cross signifying the end of old testament law.

phil112 · Jul 11, 2015

prove-all said:

If you're going to argue, at least do a little studying so you don't sound stupid.
Christ threw the moneychangers out because they were turning the temple into an exchange house, a money house.
It had nothing to do with the day of the week. That's just dumb for you to say so. It was because they had "made it a den of thieves".

Brother_Don · Jul 11, 2015

Most brothers and sisters in these forums that are called Sabbath-keepers, and Law-Keepers, and other names, have
not always been, so we've seen both sides of the tracks. We see the Blessing we've been blessed with. So to call names like it's a bad thing is called bullying, as i've seen the pot calling the kettle black. You can't knock it till you try it, and if you have tried and it did not work, then you must have been doing it for wrong reason. Most of us do our best to obey because we love the Almighty.

Brother_Don · Jul 11, 2015

BTW don't call non Sabbath-keepers non Sabbath-keepers, sinners saved by grace, or other names. If they are doing their best for Jesus, thats all that matters. Who am i to judge one of the Almighty's servants?

sparkman · Jul 11, 2015

I agree with this, but you do not understand that there is a sizeable population of Sabbathkeepers who claim that other Christians are following a counterfeit form of Christianity. These include Armstrongites and Seventh Day Adventists.

Constant remarks are made that reflect this view. Many other Sabbathkeepers believe that non-Sabbathkeepers are living in sin.

I was an Armstrongite who held this view so I know exactly what I'm talking about. If you read threads on the forum you will find these exact remarks.

If a Sabbathkeeper wants to keep the Sabbath, fine, but they don't need to be inferring that others are living in sin. And most of them believe Sabbathbreaking is a sin.

Galatians 4:21ff and Colossians 2:16-17 points out this tendency to judge others concerning the Sabbath and elements of the Old Covenant, which no longer apply to Christians. This is simply a manifestation of that same judgmental attitude. And as a former Sabbathkeeper, I will have nothing to do with them for that reason, and will expose the nature of their bad arguments and their accusations.

Brother_Don said:

sparkman · Jul 11, 2015

[SUP]It is significant to me that many who claim the Old Covenant elements of the Sabbath, annual festivals, clean and unclean meats and physical circumcision still apply explicitly or implicitly accuse other Christians of being in sin.

The writings of the Apostle Paul indicate that this is not a new thing; those who claim the Old Covenant and ceremonial and ritualistic elements of it continue to apply to New Covenant Christians have been around since his day:

Galatians 4:21-31 21 [/SUP]Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? [SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;[SUP][a][/SUP] she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now you,[SUP][b][/SUP] brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. [SUP]30 [/SUP]But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” [SUP]31 [/SUP]So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

Colossians 2:16-17 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Another thing that is abundantly clear to me is that those claiming that Old Covenant elements apply to New Covenant Christians are the ones who are teaching the false gospel, which focuses on these Old Covenant elements rather than placing one's faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, rather than other Christians, who they accuse of teaching a false form of Christianity .

Many Sabbathkeepers believe that both Catholics and Protestants are following a false gospel which causes them to worship on Sunday, in violation of the Saturday Sabbath.

These verses are used often by some Sabbathkeepers to indicate that other Christians are following a false gospel:

Galatians 1:6-9 [SUP]6 [/SUP]I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— [SUP]7 [/SUP]not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. [SUP]9 [/SUP]As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

These very verses were constantly used within Armstrongism to teach that regular Christianity was teaching a false gospel that was against God's law, particularly the Old Covenant elements of the Sabbath, annual festivals, and clean and unclean meats. How could I be so blind as not to see that they in fact were the ones teaching the false gospel that the book of Galatians addresses? Galatians is not about antinomianism; it is about insisting that elements of the Old Covenant apply to New Covenant Christians.

Here are other verses that talk about Judaizers attempting to do the same thing:

Galatians 5:1-12 1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. 7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9“A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Philippians 3:1-3 1Further, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you. 2Watch out for those dogs, those evildoers, those mutilators of the flesh. 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reasons for such confidence.

Note that while some of these verses refer directly to physical circumcision, this was understood to be the entry sign of the Old Covenant, and meant that the individual was accepting the Old Covenant and its stipulations including the above elements.

The Old Covenant ceremonial and ritualistic elements, including the Sabbath, annual festivals and clean/unclean meat laws were meant to draw a distinction between Israel and the surrounding nations. That is one of the reasons why the Old Covenant law was abolished in Christ:

Ephesians 2: 11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Note that the Old Covenant law was abolished to unite both Jews and Gentiles. It does not say that the Gentiles were required to observe the Old Covenant law; it says that the Old Covenant law was abolished.

It was meant, in part, to distinguish Israel from the neighboring nations, and it has this same effect in the body of Christ. Those who are "Torah Observant" accuse those who are not of being in sin, either explicitly or implicitly, due to these ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Sabbath, annual festivals, and clean/unclean meat laws.

I know this myself because I judged non-Sabbathkeepers, and everyone outside of my group, as being unsaved and still in their sins and following a false Christianity due to the teachings of Armstrongism. That's something I've repented of, and I will never again be associated with any Sabbathkeeping group for this reason.

Other groups may not go to the extent that I did with total denial of the salvation of others, but they infer that they are living in sin and are less obedient and pleasing to God than the non-Torah observer.

I would encourage everyone to place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, and not be caught up in this error of the Galatians. This error is being taught by groups such as Armstrongite churches, Seventh Day Adventists, and many Hebrew Roots groups.

I believe the bigger danger is some groups within the Hebrew Roots Movement. My understanding is that the roadmap in many cases leads to individuals accepting full Judaism and denying any Christian profession they had. This problem has been commented upon by Dr. Michael Brown and others. Some believers ultimately end up denying the Trinity and the full deity of Jesus Christ in favor of a Unitarian Monotheism view of God's nature. In addition, they begin to deny the writings of the Apostle Paul (which are obviously in conflict with their views) and accept false writings such as the Kabbala.

I would suggest the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff if anyone is troubled by those who claim these elements of the Old Covenant still apply. It is very good at covering the differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

prove-all · Jul 11, 2015

sparkman said:

saying someone is in a colt, and blasting it everywhere you go,
you are definitely judging [them] and causing strife.

sparkman · Jul 11, 2015

I think most Christians would agree that if one thinks they are a God being in embryonic form, to be born into the Godhead at the resurrection, they are involved in a cult. However, your point is made.

If you agree not to claim that other Christians are following a counterfeit form of Christianity, and are not living in sin due to Sabbath-breaking, I will agree not to use the cult label for you.

prove-all said:

prove-all · Jul 11, 2015

sparkman said:

I will agree to follow God and the bible thank you very much.

If the bible says there will be false apostles and a mystery babalion false church,

I will post verses allday long on this subject.

now calling someone a colt, for reading the bible and believing what is said,
about Gods blessings given about his Sabbath, his holy convocations,
and wants to follow his statues and judgements, not mans tradations,

calling unholy what is holy to God is not very pleasing to him I bet.

sparkman · Jul 11, 2015

OK. As long as you and your friends continue to call other Christians members of a false Christianity, you can expect to be addressed in an appropriate manner.

That whole view of Christianity which you have is a fabrication of Sabbathkeepers in response to presuppositions that they have that the Sabbath applies to New Covenant Christians.

Don't complain about persecution if I address these false teachings which have been generated by Sabbathkeeping cults.

prove-all said:

Sabbath: Colossians 2:16-17 compared with Hebrews 10:1-2/Judging Non-Sabbathkeepers

sparkman

Guest

Senior Member

sparkman

Guest

Senior Member

sparkman

Guest

Senior Member

sparkman

Guest

sparkman

Guest

Senior Member

sparkman

Guest

phil112

Guest

phil112

Guest

Banned

Banned

sparkman

Guest

sparkman

Guest

Senior Member

sparkman

Guest

Senior Member

sparkman

Guest