Salvation, Forgiveness, Grace, Faith, and Works
- Thread starter Chester
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Chester, I respond to the moment and the point.
It has never about respecting someones ability to jab back, or be argumentative, but
simply to express a reality. So teachers have obviously said the prodigal is actually saved, so
whether he returns or not does not matter.
They miss the whole point of the story. The father let his son go, never to return. He did not
stop him and hoped he would but knew he could die.
And when he returned he rejoiced. Salvation and lostness are brutal, but then so is life.
But then some here pussy foot around and want cutesy edges on brutal evil and brilliant
grace, so evil is so so, and grace is just accepting everything or lawlessness.
It has never about respecting someones ability to jab back, or be argumentative, but
simply to express a reality. So teachers have obviously said the prodigal is actually saved, so
whether he returns or not does not matter.
They miss the whole point of the story. The father let his son go, never to return. He did not
stop him and hoped he would but knew he could die.
And when he returned he rejoiced. Salvation and lostness are brutal, but then so is life.
But then some here pussy foot around and want cutesy edges on brutal evil and brilliant
grace, so evil is so so, and grace is just accepting everything or lawlessness.
As a side note after talking to people who would slit your throat and said it over the
internet, I know evil and how crazy it gets. So I am blunt and I make no apologies.
The gospel is powerful in open situations, and people die for these principles.
When people through them away like confetti, I get annoyed, because it is
blasphemy and heresy. But then these guys have zero problems with both
of these, a prophet speaking on behalf of the dead, no problem.
internet, I know evil and how crazy it gets. So I am blunt and I make no apologies.
The gospel is powerful in open situations, and people die for these principles.
When people through them away like confetti, I get annoyed, because it is
blasphemy and heresy. But then these guys have zero problems with both
of these, a prophet speaking on behalf of the dead, no problem.
E
The prodigal story is not about the father turning the son lose never to return. Where do people get this from?
The prodigal story is about the faithful father, and telling the faithful son not to be to proud. and think the unfaithful son is lost.
It is about a son, Who thought he could do it on his own, who learned all to quickly that he can nto do anything on his own, he is lost. and lost everything, Which causes him to return. And say it is better being a slave than nothing.. And the father saying, I can not love you any more. You will never be my slave but my son..
Yet what did the other son do? He got mad
The prodigal story is about the faithful father, and telling the faithful son not to be to proud. and think the unfaithful son is lost.
It is about a son, Who thought he could do it on his own, who learned all to quickly that he can nto do anything on his own, he is lost. and lost everything, Which causes him to return. And say it is better being a slave than nothing.. And the father saying, I can not love you any more. You will never be my slave but my son..
Yet what did the other son do? He got mad
E
This is not in dispute and I believe this as you stated and the Bible states ...
IF a person decides they don't want salvation they are free to chose to not take it and die in their sin and be judged and thrown into the LOF
Like wise if they decide to accept salvation they die and go tot heaven
but some say the fine print in salvation says:
If a person chooses salvation then they do not become God's children, they become his little mindless automatons and we can never walk away from him, by rejecting him outright and the work of the cross because he has us forever and our free choice is then an after thought of a communist God. This same God though allows someone to exercise their free choice to die in their sin and go to the LOF.
You are suggesting God is a communist to his children and overrides their free choice and then suggest when said person does forsake God, despite the fruit they might have bore, etc...that ya know they really were not saved to begin with...
God is patient and willing that none shall perish and has no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, but he will not nor cannot take away your choice, it is agaisnt his very nature....suggesting you cannot lose your salvation I agree with....people stating people cannot walk away from God and his gift of salvation through later rejecting it outright is false....stating those people where never saved is even more dangerous....
I have and sadly known people that were saved and living for God, who due to hurt/offense or a root of bitterness left God, cursed his salvation and cursed the Holy Ghost to my face and went and lived like hell and later when they died....there was no hope for that person...how do I know?...I saw the fear of death manifest upon them....
God never left those people, they left him....
IF a person decides they don't want salvation they are free to chose to not take it and die in their sin and be judged and thrown into the LOF
Like wise if they decide to accept salvation they die and go tot heaven
but some say the fine print in salvation says:
If a person chooses salvation then they do not become God's children, they become his little mindless automatons and we can never walk away from him, by rejecting him outright and the work of the cross because he has us forever and our free choice is then an after thought of a communist God. This same God though allows someone to exercise their free choice to die in their sin and go to the LOF.
You are suggesting God is a communist to his children and overrides their free choice and then suggest when said person does forsake God, despite the fruit they might have bore, etc...that ya know they really were not saved to begin with...
God is patient and willing that none shall perish and has no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, but he will not nor cannot take away your choice, it is agaisnt his very nature....suggesting you cannot lose your salvation I agree with....people stating people cannot walk away from God and his gift of salvation through later rejecting it outright is false....stating those people where never saved is even more dangerous....
I have and sadly known people that were saved and living for God, who due to hurt/offense or a root of bitterness left God, cursed his salvation and cursed the Holy Ghost to my face and went and lived like hell and later when they died....there was no hope for that person...how do I know?...I saw the fear of death manifest upon them....
God never left those people, they left him....
E
here is the disconnect. You believe a person thinks this just because he believes a person who is given eternal life is saved eternally no matter what.
That is not the case. God knew every thing that person would do. every minute of every day from the time he took his first breath to his last.
When God saved a person, He saved them based on what he knew about that person.
God also knew who had real faith, he is not going to save a person who has wishy washy faith that he also KNOWS will one day turn his back on God and give god the spiritual finger, and say no thanks God, take your salvation and shove it.
It is not a free will issue, It is a God issue (is God all knowing or is he not?)
I can take that, and I will suggest you are wrong, and also suggest you thing God is not all knowing, that he makes mistakes, that he saved people he either did not know will one day turn on him, or was fooled into giving someone a gift that he knew he would have to take back one day.
Saying God makes mistakes, and can be fooled into giving gifts he does not remember he will need to take back one day when the person rejects him is foolish, And makes God to be a human God who is not all powerful, but flawed.
So your God and determined those peoples salvation?
Now who is assuming, I will never assume someone is saved or not. I am not God. I can not determine if a persons faith was real or not..
I know Christians who are walking every day have fear. does that mean they are not Christian, because they have thoughts they might not be saved, because they have done some horrible sin in the past. or are struggling with a sin issue they can not overcome?
or does it mean they are listening to satans accusations?
E
By the way, For those who think we are robots (double predestination, we do nothing unless God determined it, ie, we have no free will)
I disagree with this form of fatalism.. in this I would agree with eph610.
But as I have said, this does not negate the fact of Gods characteristics. They are still in tact.
I disagree with this form of fatalism.. in this I would agree with eph610.
But as I have said, this does not negate the fact of Gods characteristics. They are still in tact.
EG wrote (Post # 53): "I would say all men and women all over the earth no matter if they are saved or not, need Gods grace, for apart from it, we would be doomed. Or maybe we just take what the terms actually meant to the people who originally were taught the terms. and not today's watered down english words which can have so many meaning?"
Response: No problem here - I agree!
EG wrote: "Actually I just asked a question, it had nothing to do with you saying "stay saved" I have no problem with that, It is just you associated that with sanctification. Which is where I would disagree, but do not want to assume anything. If sanctification is the process of "staying saved" then what level of sanctification does one have to come to to "stay saved" (see my point?) so I will ask again, What did you mean by that.. I again do not want to assume"
Response: I guess I need to say I am completely baffled - that is - I don't know anymore what the question is so much less what to try to answer??? the "see my point?" - No, I don't - I am lost! (please help me get saved!
I don't know where you are trying to go with your question here? levels of sanctification ??!!
EG wrote: So you must depend on your ability to remain in faith every day, If YOU FAIL, you lost salvation.
Now do you see why I would see this as a peerson trying to work to save himself. You know how much work a person must do to daily trust God in all areas? It is not easy, if it was, Christians would mature in Christ automatically,, And never struggle.
Response: Ah! This makes sense! I think I got it! Yes, I do see why you would see this as a person trying to save himself. Let me try to explain: I do not view it as "depending on my ability to remain in the faith every day". It is 100% God who gives his grace which results in faith developing in my heart. The source is God, not myself. But is as you and I have discussed on other threads - I also partner with God (or I think you use the word "participate" with God) -- but that does not mean it is me doing the works - I am God's workmanship. I believe the same about initial salvation: It is God's grace that is the starting point and the ending point, but unless I respond in faith (because of His grace) I will not be saved! "Staying saved" is not dependent on "trusting God in all areas" - it is about continuing to believe that Jesus died for me and leaning on that for salvation. I see this level of believing as a deep spiritual belief - we may have intellectual doubts, but this does not negate the deeper level of belief in Jesus.
EG wrote: "Then I will call nonsens, if God says I will never die and I die, God lied Period!"
Response: You are right on that count - if God told you that you will never die and you die - then God lied! But where did He tell you that you will never die? I assume you mean a verse like John 11:26: "And whoever lives (present tense) and believes (present tense) in me shall never die." As long as you are a part of the "whosoever" the promise is yours! If I say: Come to my house and live with me and I will feed you forever - my promise holds for as long as you live with me in my house!
I think here on interpretation of these verses is the core of our disagreement: I wish I could fix and just believe like you, but I just don't see it in the texts.
John 6:35-51 is filled with present tenses with the same meaning: I could go through it verse by verse and give a response, but am not sure that is helpful here - I have done that on other threads and I am sure you have seen the non-OSAS response to these verses. I would be glad to though, give an answer to one or two specific verses (that is - what I feel they are saying) if you want.
EG wrote: "vs 64 - But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe God knows. we can not fool God. God is not going to save us, Give us all the things he promised, Adopt us as his children, Give us the seal and guarantee of the spirit.
then one day say, Wow. I did not see that coming, That person lost faith in me and wants to give his gift back.."
Response: John 6:64 is talking about Judas and I agree that he probably never believed in Jesus at all. In the verse Jesus says: "But there are some out of you who are not believing (present tense), for from the beginning Jesus knew who are the ones not believing (present tense) . . .". Of course Jesus knows who will believe and who will not believe. But the other points you make about this verse seem to be you own conclusions and not what the verse actually says. I would disagree that God will not give a gift to someone he knows will later reject it. In fact, I think he ongoingly offers to all the gift whether or not they accept or refuse.
When God created Adam he knew full well that he would sin, but he created him anyway. He was not surprised by Adam's sin; He already had the plan of redemption in place!
Note: Please tell me EG if I get nasty or provocative! My blood does start to stir when I start looking at interpretation of Scripture. I do wonder if the heart of our differences are how we interpret some of these passages? And yet I am not sure if that is the core difference? You have suggested it is our view of faith and grace? But would that not come from our interpretation of Scripture? Not sure I know - and as I said earlier - the purpose of this thread is not to try to prove or disprove OSAS - but to understand one another - but it does seem to lead to this . . .
love you brother and am getting impatient about heaven to get this all straightened out - until then I am satisfied to agree to differ . . .
Response: No problem here - I agree!
EG wrote: "Actually I just asked a question, it had nothing to do with you saying "stay saved" I have no problem with that, It is just you associated that with sanctification. Which is where I would disagree, but do not want to assume anything. If sanctification is the process of "staying saved" then what level of sanctification does one have to come to to "stay saved" (see my point?) so I will ask again, What did you mean by that.. I again do not want to assume"
Response: I guess I need to say I am completely baffled - that is - I don't know anymore what the question is so much less what to try to answer??? the "see my point?" - No, I don't - I am lost! (please help me get saved!
I don't know where you are trying to go with your question here? levels of sanctification ??!!EG wrote: So you must depend on your ability to remain in faith every day, If YOU FAIL, you lost salvation.
Now do you see why I would see this as a peerson trying to work to save himself. You know how much work a person must do to daily trust God in all areas? It is not easy, if it was, Christians would mature in Christ automatically,, And never struggle.
Response: Ah! This makes sense! I think I got it!
Yes, I do see why you would see this as a person trying to save himself. Let me try to explain: I do not view it as "depending on my ability to remain in the faith every day". It is 100% God who gives his grace which results in faith developing in my heart. The source is God, not myself. But is as you and I have discussed on other threads - I also partner with God (or I think you use the word "participate" with God) -- but that does not mean it is me doing the works - I am God's workmanship. I believe the same about initial salvation: It is God's grace that is the starting point and the ending point, but unless I respond in faith (because of His grace) I will not be saved! "Staying saved" is not dependent on "trusting God in all areas" - it is about continuing to believe that Jesus died for me and leaning on that for salvation. I see this level of believing as a deep spiritual belief - we may have intellectual doubts, but this does not negate the deeper level of belief in Jesus. EG wrote: "Then I will call nonsens, if God says I will never die and I die, God lied Period!"
Response: You are right on that count - if God told you that you will never die and you die - then God lied! But where did He tell you that you will never die? I assume you mean a verse like John 11:26: "And whoever lives (present tense) and believes (present tense) in me shall never die." As long as you are a part of the "whosoever" the promise is yours! If I say: Come to my house and live with me and I will feed you forever - my promise holds for as long as you live with me in my house!
I think here on interpretation of these verses is the core of our disagreement: I wish I could fix and just believe like you, but I just don't see it in the texts.
John 6:35-51 is filled with present tenses with the same meaning: I could go through it verse by verse and give a response, but am not sure that is helpful here - I have done that on other threads and I am sure you have seen the non-OSAS response to these verses. I would be glad to though, give an answer to one or two specific verses (that is - what I feel they are saying) if you want.
EG wrote: "vs 64 - But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe God knows. we can not fool God. God is not going to save us, Give us all the things he promised, Adopt us as his children, Give us the seal and guarantee of the spirit.
then one day say, Wow. I did not see that coming, That person lost faith in me and wants to give his gift back.."
Response: John 6:64 is talking about Judas and I agree that he probably never believed in Jesus at all. In the verse Jesus says: "But there are some out of you who are not believing (present tense), for from the beginning Jesus knew who are the ones not believing (present tense) . . .". Of course Jesus knows who will believe and who will not believe. But the other points you make about this verse seem to be you own conclusions and not what the verse actually says. I would disagree that God will not give a gift to someone he knows will later reject it. In fact, I think he ongoingly offers to all the gift whether or not they accept or refuse.
When God created Adam he knew full well that he would sin, but he created him anyway. He was not surprised by Adam's sin; He already had the plan of redemption in place!
Note: Please tell me EG if I get nasty or provocative! My blood does start to stir when I start looking at interpretation of Scripture. I do wonder if the heart of our differences are how we interpret some of these passages? And yet I am not sure if that is the core difference? You have suggested it is our view of faith and grace? But would that not come from our interpretation of Scripture? Not sure I know - and as I said earlier - the purpose of this thread is not to try to prove or disprove OSAS - but to understand one another - but it does seem to lead to this . . .
love you brother and am getting impatient about heaven to get this all straightened out - until then I am satisfied to agree to differ . . .
I am not sure, Eph610, that EG believes in Calvinistic predestination. In fact the quote you gave from him he says "I disagree with this form of fatalism". I think he believes 100% in God's sovereignty and 100% in free choice (or that is what I understand him to say he believes). I (like you I think) have not yet quite figured out how this is possible and then to also believe in OSAS -- but then he can't figure us out either - and to be honest until this thread I had you pegged completely wrong! - but I think I understand better now.
This is quite an adventure to try to hear and really understand other believers and yet at the same time realize there are also wolves in our midst here on CC disguised as sheep!
This is quite an adventure to try to hear and really understand other believers and yet at the same time realize there are also wolves in our midst here on CC disguised as sheep!
E
Hi Chester,
Read a bit closer he said he does not believe in double predestination and maintained his same position, that Salvation is a God issue...The only people I hear say GOD POSITION are Calvinistic predestination people
IT does not change anything from my stand point and hardly worth writing someone off, and I wont....like I said it will make conversation easier with him....
I am not a conditional works based salvation believer....I believe we are saved 100% by Jesus Christ and nothing else....I believe salvation is a covenant relationship
Read a bit closer he said he does not believe in double predestination and maintained his same position, that Salvation is a God issue...The only people I hear say GOD POSITION are Calvinistic predestination people
IT does not change anything from my stand point and hardly worth writing someone off, and I wont....like I said it will make conversation easier with him....
I am not a conditional works based salvation believer....I believe we are saved 100% by Jesus Christ and nothing else....I believe salvation is a covenant relationship
E
Oh? so this is a calvin vs arminian issue, (that is what it seams you seem to be saying,) Not a God issue? Again, I know many people who are not calvanist, yet believe the same.
It appears you have already made up your mind, That is not how many times you told me what I believe? (that is what Got peter in trouble)
So if salvation is 100% in Jesus, how can it be lost. that would mean it is 100% based on jesus and 0% based n self the way I see it, So there is no way salvation could possibly be lost. Because no matter what we do. it would not affect that salvation.
It appears you have already made up your mind, That is not how many times you told me what I believe? (that is what Got peter in trouble)
So if salvation is 100% in Jesus, how can it be lost. that would mean it is 100% based on jesus and 0% based n self the way I see it, So there is no way salvation could possibly be lost. Because no matter what we do. it would not affect that salvation.
P
I was just wondering, why in these threads (which I have been in many) the gorilla in the room is not addressed?
So let me point out the gorilla.....we are judged by what kind of servant we become. What we did with our gift and it would seem more than a brief wood shed teaching is given.
We are accountable for the gifts we received....just saying.
So let me point out the gorilla.....we are judged by what kind of servant we become. What we did with our gift and it would seem more than a brief wood shed teaching is given.
We are accountable for the gifts we received....just saying.
Sorry if some readers miss-understood my reference to slitting my throat.
On an internet exchange with some muslims, they took delight in suggesting
they would kill me without hesitation and I am sure they would. Think IS.
Some from afghanistan were equally as graphic. It was eye opening to get
your head around how people justify an idea is worthy of death, but the got
so angry and extreme, being a raving psycho was part of the religious trip.
So in contrast bdf is a play ground, lol. I love the internet in some ways,
you can reach out to groups you would never have contact with and see how
they tick. It is not what you would expect and whole different moral relationship
dynamic within families and cultures, very alien to the west, and so extreme
it is hard for these people to understand respect for people as people.
On an internet exchange with some muslims, they took delight in suggesting
they would kill me without hesitation and I am sure they would. Think IS.
Some from afghanistan were equally as graphic. It was eye opening to get
your head around how people justify an idea is worthy of death, but the got
so angry and extreme, being a raving psycho was part of the religious trip.
So in contrast bdf is a play ground, lol. I love the internet in some ways,
you can reach out to groups you would never have contact with and see how
they tick. It is not what you would expect and whole different moral relationship
dynamic within families and cultures, very alien to the west, and so extreme
it is hard for these people to understand respect for people as people.
why are some still asking religions, what they believe in. if you believe in the saviour, what has he already done for you.
without faith or belief, how do you get salvation. yet you say sin stand in the way. lol
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through meJohn 14:
what is the difference in meaning to saviour ,salvation.
saviour
ˈseɪvjə/Submit
noun
a person who saves someone or something from danger or difficulty.
"politicians of the era usually portray themselves as the nation's saviours"
synonyms: rescuer, liberator, deliverer, emancipator; More
(in Christianity) God or Jesus Christ as the redeemer of sin and saver of souls.
noun: Saviour; noun: Savior
God or Jesus Christ as the redeemer of sin and saver of souls.
when did an old covenant ,know the way to the father.
without faith or belief, how do you get salvation. yet you say sin stand in the way. lol
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through meJohn 14:
what is the difference in meaning to saviour ,salvation.
saviour
ˈseɪvjə/Submit
noun
a person who saves someone or something from danger or difficulty.
"politicians of the era usually portray themselves as the nation's saviours"
synonyms: rescuer, liberator, deliverer, emancipator; More
(in Christianity) God or Jesus Christ as the redeemer of sin and saver of souls.
noun: Saviour; noun: Savior
God or Jesus Christ as the redeemer of sin and saver of souls.
when did an old covenant ,know the way to the father.