SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[Elin]

I rather enjoyed the read. Sorry 'bout this again, but I will have to reply to your post at a later date, again. But I will say, the part I wrote about Paul's infirmity of the flesh, you were right. Sorry I went off on a tangent. I lost sight of what the subject was. I'll try to stay focused next time.

What route do you run?

 

[newbirth]

You know..it is you that practices Catholic doctrine as you preach works for salvation and that you can loose your salvation....

Go ahead and keep on believing something that the bible doesn't teach and see how far your works get you in the day of judgment!

Because someone says they have to work for salvation, does not make work a sin. I say just as the wicked inherits wrath on judgement day even so the righteous inherits salvation, which you say you already have. But we are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. And the one who saves us say it is for all those who obey him. Because God works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure.
[h=3]Hebrews 5:8-10[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.


[h=3]1 Peter 1:8-10[/h]King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]8 [/SUP]Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:


[h=3]1 Peter 1:4-6[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:



[h=3]Philippians 2:11-13[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[WomanLovesTX]

There is nothing we can do to earn salvation. Even the faith to believe what Christ has done in our stead is a gift from the Father.

John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[crossnote]

NEWBIRTH "Because someone says they have to work for salvation, does not make work a sin."

No but their statement is a sin.

 

[royalscot]

Question one. If salvation is by faith in Christ's work on the cross, and the only way to please God is by faith, and faith without corresponding action is dead, useless, worthless, and without effect, then is one saved without some type of work of faith?
Question two. Does believing without some type of corresponding work constitute it, the belief, as faith? Remembering that the believing spoken of in the gospel is not an inactive or passive belief. If it were then part of the epistle of James would be a lie.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works [or corresponding action] is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I think scripture speaks for itself.

I don't need to remember anything. except god saved me through jesus Christ. because this is cristal clear.
I am not jewish, but a gentile. I believe in a risen jesus christ
penticost happen after the cross, and gentile were save after penticost, so you have and the holy spirit was given, ware your scripture, quote about this is a garentee to a believer.



question 1) the question is, do you believe in jesus. yes or no



john 3. 16 god so loved the world, that he gave his one and only son,that who ever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

john 3.16, is clear who saved me,(that would be god, will save me because I believe in who) what do you need to do, to be saved (and that would be believing in his jesus )son

I believe in a god,(saves me) not speculation, so to how you see things, keep your religion practices , and your man made works.
I do not set aside grace, if the law could save me,(or work) then Christ died for nothing. and this means I will hold on and believe(the gift, grace, is eternal). and your law and works, will never save you, or score a better result, than the grace that has already been given by god gift his son. (jesus)

question 2) first learn the answer to answer to question one.

 

[Elin]

Do you believe Heb 12:5-11 regarding God's discipline of his children?

I do, but not the way you see it. If God just lays sickness on one of His children that has been pleasing Him, then God would be a hypocrite. I understand that God is sovereign, but He cannot do contrary to His word, and His word cannot conflict or contradict itself.

The Bible presents God's discipline (which is not condemnation) for several reasons: disobedience, sanctification, his sovereign purposes.

Peter, James, John, Paul were all persecuted.

Do you know for sure it was because they displeased God?

That was OT false belief to which the book of Job gives the lie.
God said Job was righteous.
Yet Job was afflicted, in his body, in his family and in his life.

Affliction/discipline does not necessarily mean God's displeasure.

Galations, chapter 3 is talking about justification to the saving of ones soul.

Keep in mind that this is about one justifying themselves before God to declare them righteous, through their own efforts and acts of obedience to the law.

The curse of the law is condemnation for its violation.

"There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus." (Ro 8:1)

By becoming a curse for us, Christ redeemed us from the condemnation/curse of the law.

He paid the penalty which the law required of us for its violation,
and now we are bought back (redeemed) from its condemnation (Ro 8:1) for that violation.

Even as verse 13 is talking about salvation, so is verse 10. It does not negate the curse of the law concerning judgement through chastisement, reprimand, discipline, punishment, or rebuke to the point of one losing their life in the land of the living.

The curse of the law is condemnation.

There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

God's discipline of his children is not the condemnation/curse of the law,
it is the discipline of a good Father.

The people of God are now under the law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2), which is the law of love
(Mt 22:37-39), with no curse for imperfect obedience, and which fulfills the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13: 8, 9,10).

Do you have scripture to back up the statement in red?

Actually, the question is: do you have Scripture which states that those in Christ are under the condemnation (curse) of the law?

1) Mt 22:37-40: When Jesus gave his law, he did not attach any condemnation (curse) for imperfect obedience, as God did to the Mosaic law (Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10, 13).

Therefore, we have no warrant for saying there is.

2) Ro 8:1 "There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus."

Sorry, I can't help you on this one ma'am.

That's okay, nice guy.

 

[newbirth]

NEWBIRTH "Because someone says they have to work for salvation, does not make work a sin."

No but their statement is a sin.

Their statement is in error let he who is without error cast the first stone. Remember the wages of sin is death.
Shall we not intercede on their behalf that God will open their eyes so they see the glory of God. That is our work but we refuse to work. God has given us the ministry of reconciliation let us disobey him because it is work. Are we not eternally saved signed and sealed none can pluck us from his hands. Only "believe" that is all, do nothing else you are eternally saved. No need to obey no need to walk in his footsteps you are eternally saved he did all those things already why do it again. Oh yes I can even sin now I am his child and that can't change he already give me eternal life and he can't take it back.

 

[know1]

Why don't you quote the whole thing in context as the context is.....




SHOW <ME> YOUR FAITH!

ROMANS TEACHES CLEARLY THAT BEFORE GOD WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH!

No need to shout sir, I ain't deaf ya know. And why so big? I ain't blind either.
So, I didn't quote the whole thing in context? Would you mind telling me what verse, 'show me your faith' is in, as you didn't quote the whole thing either.
And do tell what faith is, good sir. Yes, please, do tell.
Okay, enough of that, just having a little fun.
All jesting put aside, if you sir, would have noticed, I never contended against being justified by faith. Frankly, I don't know why you are trying to tell me that part of scripture in James is a lie. You are not arguing against me sir, but against God. I didn't write the bible, I just quoted it in context. I didn't add or take anything to/from it. Nor did I twist the thing. The verse speaks for itself, in plain simple to understand English.
It doesn't matter if you show a person or God your faith, if it isn't God's faith, it's not going to work. And if you don't do things God's way, the way it is written, again, it's not going to work. The bible says the only way to please God is by faith, His faith, so we need to know how this faith really works, and it appears to me, like most Christians, you don't know what faith is or how it operates either. Which tells me that you have not been living by faith. Which also means you have not been walking in the Spirit.

Jas 2:24 [So] Ye [don't] see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

God's word does not contradict itself. If you have a problem with the above verse, aside from the two words I added, then you need to change your doctrine, because it's wrong.
When you look at a verse in James that says a man is justified by works, and not by faith only, then in Romans, where it says a man is justified by faith only and not by works, the problem is a lack of understanding of the word, 'works'. The faith is the same, the kind of works is what's different. One is works of the law, the other is works of faith. One is works of the flesh, while the other is the works of the Spirit. One is works by and of self, as in, look at what I did, the other is by the Spirit of Grace. One condemns, the other justifies and gives life.
In order for faith to operate in one's life, one must act on it. It simply won't work if you don't. It is the very reason why so many Christians go to the doctors and take medication/drugs. They don't know how to apply God's faith to their situation.

 

[know1]

What route do you run?

Route? It's a matter of how much sleep I will get. I'm also not the fastest typist. It generally takes me longer to type something up than most. I am getting better at it though.

 

[know1]

I don't need to remember anything. except god saved me through jesus Christ. because this is cristal clear.
I am not jewish, but a gentile. I believe in a risen jesus christ
penticost happen after the cross, and gentile were save after penticost, so you have and the holy spirit was given, ware your scripture, quote about this is a garentee to a believer.



question 1) the question is, do you believe in jesus. yes or no



john 3. 16 god so loved the world, that he gave his one and only son,that who ever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

john 3.16, is clear who saved me,(that would be god, will save me because I believe in who) what do you need to do, to be saved (and that would be believing in his jesus )son

I believe in a god,(saves me) not speculation, so to how you see things, keep your religion practices , and your man made works.
I do not set aside grace, if the law could save me,(or work) then Christ died for nothing. and this means I will hold on and believe(the gift, grace, is eternal). and your law and works, will never save you, or score a better result, than the grace that has already been given by god gift his son. (jesus)

question 2) first learn the answer to answer to question one.

This must be a sensitive and touchy subject for some. No need for contention sir, nor to take offense at the things I wrote. No offense was intended. I just write what I see in God's word like you. Only I try to understand what I read without bias.
Okay, from what I see, you have a misunderstanding as well, of the different types of works mentioned in the bible, 'cause there's no contradictions in the bible. Nor does one verse negate another.
As I stated earlier, one works is of self/flesh/law to earn their justification to salvation, while the other is of the Spirit/faith.
One will move the hand of God in your life and the other won't.

 

[know1]

The Bible presents God's discipline (which is not condemnation) for several reasons: disobedience, sanctification, his sovereign purposes.

Peter, James, John, Paul were all persecuted.

Do you know for sure it was because they displeased God?

That was OT false belief to which the book of Job gives the lie.
God said Job was righteous.
Yet Job was afflicted, in his body, in his family and in his life.

Affliction/discipline does not necessarily mean God's displeasure.

The curse of the law is condemnation for its violation.

"There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus." (Ro 8:1)

By becoming a curse for us, Christ redeemed us from the condemnation/curse of the law.

He paid the penalty which the law required of us for its violation,
and now we are bought back (redeemed) from its condemnation (Ro 8:1) for that violation.


The curse of the law is condemnation.

There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

God's discipline of his children is not the condemnation/curse of the law,
it is the discipline of a good Father.

Actually, the question is: do you have Scripture which states that those in Christ are under the condemnation (curse) of the law?

1) Mt 22:37-40: When Jesus gave his law, he did not attach any condemnation (curse) for imperfect obedience, as God did to the Mosaic law (Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10, 13).

Therefore, we have no warrant for saying there is.

2) Ro 8:1 "There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus."

That's okay, nice guy.

You're going to fast for me. I am not able to keep up. I still have to go back and answer the last one. I'll just have to be brief with my answers.

 

[GodisAlive]

Yes not by works but we can become enemy of God thru disobedience being of the world, luke warm so not saved by works also doesnt mean we can go the opposite direction and do what ever we want but sure u all kno tht but just for the few tht might not

 

[know1]

Remember, it is God who said Job was righteous.
God addressed Job for thinking that God owed him an explanation, and for questioning God's
justice in afflicting him.
And, incidentally, God never told Job why he put him through all that.

I believe, God never said Job was righteous, Job was the one who said that. God said Job was perfect [in his ways] and upright. I believe there is a difference. Basically, he did everything he believed to be right, perfectly and without fail.
Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. [Not God's.]
Job 32:2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.

Job 34:10 Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
Job 34:11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

I'm talking about Jesus telling Ananias in Ac that He would show Paul how much he must suffer,
which we find catalogued in Cor.
As Job was greatly afflicted by Satan according to the will of God,
so Paul was greatly persecuted and afflicted by his own brethren the Jews,
according to the will of God spoken to Ananias in Ac.

Persecution is scriptural, but afflicted via sickness or disease is not.

I don't think I know to what you are referring.
Are you saying that NT believers are saved from physical ailments?

Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
(ERV) So Jesus made clear the full meaning of what Isaiah the prophet said: "He took away our diseases and carried away our sicknesses."
If Jesus took our infirmities or sicknesses and bore our sicknesses or diseases, why do Christians have them, and why are they baring it? If I paid your bills in full, would it make sense for you to pay it also? If I carried your books from point A to point B, then why are you trying to do the same? Not all thing are what they appear. Any child of God can get healed or delivered from whatever ails them.ai

The Greek word for, saved, means all of the below.
sōzō
sode'-zo
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, “safe”); to save, that is, to deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): -to heal, preserve, save (self), do well, to be (made) whole.
So, to answer your question, I would say, yes. I try to keep my personal experiences out of the argument, as it carries little weight compared to scripture. But, to those who know their rights in Christ and act on the promises of God, not only will get saved, but healed, delivered, made whole, and preserved from anything and everything this world and the devil throw at you. Thousands of Christians who learned what God's faith really is and how it and the kingdom God operates, get healed, delivered, they cast out evil spirits, and all kinds of things, just like it happened in Jesus' time when He was here on earth.

Have you considered Timothy, who had a stomach ailment?

Mat 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Have you considered why Jesus Himself could not do any mighty works in His hometown?
If a person cannot believe God for something, if they're unsure, or if they waiver, they won't get anything from God. But when a person really believes, more like knows, God never fails to perform their request or demand. Every time without fail.

Jesus' work on the cross was to pay the penalty for our sin.
Are you saying Jesus' suffering was to redeem believers from physical ailments?

Yes ma'am, that is exactly what I am saying, and anything else. If God does it to tens of thousands of Christians who know the truth, He will do it for you or anyone who believes. God is no respecter of persons, as you very well know. If it wasn't the truth from God's word, it wouldn't work for them, and none of their prayers would get answered.

If I may clarify a little more. . .
The law of sin and the law of death are Ro 6:23: "The wages of sin is death."
However, the curse of the law (Ro 3:10), which is the law of Moses, to which Paul refers in Gal 3:13,
is the curse of the Mosaic law, for imperfect obedience (Dt 27:26).

Galations 3 is talking about righteousness, which has to do with the law of death, not the law of sin. I see there being a distinction between the two.
By imperfect obedience, you mean disobedience? I think the word, imperfect, softens the severity of it.
Thanks again for your insightful answers in reply.
You asked for proof one time a while back, would you check out this half hour video?
Thurman Scrivner on Sid Roth - YouTube

 

[royalscot]

This must be a sensitive and touchy subject for some. No need for contention sir, nor to take offense at the things I wrote. No offense was intended. I just write what I see in God's word like you. Only I try to understand what I read without bias.
Okay, from what I see, you have a misunderstanding as well, of the different types of works mentioned in the bible, 'cause there's no contradictions in the bible. Nor does one verse negate another.
As I stated earlier, one works is of self/flesh/law to earn their justification to salvation, while the other is of the Spirit/faith.
One will move the hand of God in your life and the other won't.

there is a bias, and that is not believe in jesus Christ. everyone in the new testament is talking about what jesus Christ,did and putting his ministry to work.(in place as directed by the holy spirit) as I tried to explain, was we have to believe in jesus Christ, not god, but jesus explains to us there is a god. and the topic again is SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS! so without jesus, can we see god, as a father, or god that throws lightning bolts. so in short, no jesus no eternal life. (as they preach, death has been conquered, etc) so I don't set aside what jesus has done, or god, because they have had a eternal plan from the beginning. and believe that(jesus and god the father) will complete the work they have started in any brother or sister that believes jesus christ is lord .

if you don't know the starting line, how can your reach the finish line, competing by the rules. (paul run a good race)
question 1

I asked do you believe in jesus. yes or no.

the answer/ or asking people, this question is what the new testament church, is living for, and preaching about.
there is no other name that can save, but jesus Christ. again this is answered by question 1.
this is a personal choice.

 

[newbirth]

there is a bias, and that is not believe in jesus Christ. everyone in the new testament is talking about what jesus Christ,did and putting his ministry to work.(in place as directed by the holy spirit) as I tried to explain, was we have to believe in jesus Christ, not god, but jesus explains to us there is a god. and the topic again is SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS! so without jesus, can we see god, as a father, or god that throws lightning bolts. so in short, no jesus no eternal life. (as they preach, death has been conquered, etc) so I don't set aside what jesus has done, or god, because they have had a eternal plan from the beginning. and believe that(jesus and god the father) will complete the work they have started in any brother or sister that believes jesus christ is lord .

if you don't know the starting line, how can your reach the finish line, competing by the rules. (paul run a good race)
question 1

I asked do you believe in jesus. yes or no.

the answer/ or asking people, this question is what the new testament church, is living for, and preaching about.
there is no other name that can save, but jesus Christ. again this is answered by question 1.
this is a personal choice.

Which brings us to what does it mean to believe? If a man does not believe in Jesus he does nothing. If a man believes in Jesus and does nothing what is the difference.The devils believe and tremble. The question is what must the believer in Jesus do? Trust and obey because saying you believe and not doing what he says means you don't believe.
[h=3]John 14:11-13[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

 

[royalscot]

Which brings us to what does it mean to believe? If a man does not believe in Jesus he does nothing. If a man believes in Jesus and does nothing what is the difference.The devils believe and tremble. The question is what must the believer in Jesus do? Trust and obey because saying you believe and not doing what he says means you don't believe.
John 14:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

speculation is from people that don't know the beginning. and if your good deeds are rags, in who s sight.
then who s son made us heir s . and since you give reason to the devil, believe what you want. go to show you don't know the beginning.. obey who, only a fool rejects grace, and only jesus can show you the way to god the father. strange I thought I told this in the last 3 posts. stange it say believe in jesus to see the father. prove what I said as wrong, don't guess or speculate about what you think I mean. go to show your still a law breaker. 2 quotes again sound the I just can get a break here.

 

[Elin]

I believe, God never said Job was righteous, Job was the one who said that. God said Job was perfect [in his ways] and upright. I believe there is a difference. Basically, he did everything he believed to be right, perfectly and without fail.

Thanks again for your insightful answers in reply.
You asked for proof one time a while back, would you check out this half hour video?
Thurman Scrivner on Sid Roth - YouTube

And thanks for your reply.

Let's just agree to disagree on these matters, okay?

 

[dcontroversal]

No need to shout sir, I ain't deaf ya know. And why so big? I ain't blind either.
So, I didn't quote the whole thing in context? Would you mind telling me what verse, 'show me your faith' is in, as you didn't quote the whole thing either.
And do tell what faith is, good sir. Yes, please, do tell.
Okay, enough of that, just having a little fun.
All jesting put aside, if you sir, would have noticed, I never contended against being justified by faith. Frankly, I don't know why you are trying to tell me that part of scripture in James is a lie. You are not arguing against me sir, but against God. I didn't write the bible, I just quoted it in context. I didn't add or take anything to/from it. Nor did I twist the thing. The verse speaks for itself, in plain simple to understand English.
It doesn't matter if you show a person or God your faith, if it isn't God's faith, it's not going to work. And if you don't do things God's way, the way it is written, again, it's not going to work. The bible says the only way to please God is by faith, His faith, so we need to know how this faith really works, and it appears to me, like most Christians, you don't know what faith is or how it operates either. Which tells me that you have not been living by faith. Which also means you have not been walking in the Spirit.

Jas 2:24 [So] Ye [don't] see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

God's word does not contradict itself. If you have a problem with the above verse, aside from the two words I added, then you need to change your doctrine, because it's wrong.
When you look at a verse in James that says a man is justified by works, and not by faith only, then in Romans, where it says a man is justified by faith only and not by works, the problem is a lack of understanding of the word, 'works'. The faith is the same, the kind of works is what's different. One is works of the law, the other is works of faith. One is works of the flesh, while the other is the works of the Spirit. One is works by and of self, as in, look at what I did, the other is by the Spirit of Grace. One condemns, the other justifies and gives life.
In order for faith to operate in one's life, one must act on it. It simply won't work if you don't. It is the very reason why so many Christians go to the doctors and take medication/drugs. They don't know how to apply God's faith to their situation.

Was being emphatic good sir and James clearly is teaching about a man saying he has faith to another man and the visible proof of inward faith before MEN is the works which Jesus does through us...

Paul on the other hand using both David, Abraham and the word he was inspired to write teaches that before God we are justified by simple faith......

Now...if you choose to add to the word then do so at your own peril mi amigo!

 

[dcontroversal]

speculation is from people that don't know the beginning. and if your good deeds are rags, in who s sight.
then who s son made us heir s . and since you give reason to the devil, believe what you want. go to show you don't know the beginning.. obey who, only a fool rejects grace, and only jesus can show you the way to god the father. strange I thought I told this in the last 3 posts. stange it say believe in jesus to see the father. prove what I said as wrong, don't guess or speculate about what you think I mean. go to show your still a law breaker. 2 quotes again sound the I just can get a break here.

No doubt and I will make my stand in the faith of Christ and the eternal salvation and justification that comes from his faith and obedience!

 

[newbirth]

speculation is from people that don't know the beginning. and if your good deeds are rags, in who s sight.
then who s son made us heir s . and since you give reason to the devil, believe what you want. go to show you don't know the beginning.. obey who, only a fool rejects grace, and only jesus can show you the way to god the father. strange I thought I told this in the last 3 posts. stange it say believe in jesus to see the father. prove what I said as wrong, don't guess or speculate about what you think I mean. go to show your still a law breaker. 2 quotes again sound the I just can get a break here.

A war of words gets us nowhere but you already judge me but I judge no man the word of God is true...
[h=3]John 6:43-45[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[SUP]45 [/SUP]It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.