Saved By Laver of Regeneration and Cleansed By A Laver of Water
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Look back at my posts where I quoted from those that deny the bible's teaching on the necessity of water baptism yet still say "washing of water/regeneration" refers to water baptism.
John Calvin on Tts 3:5 "By the washing of regeneration I have no doubt that he alludes, at least, to baptism, and even I will not object to have this passage expounded as relating to baptism;..."
Calvin "pushing an agenda" by admitting Paul is referring to baptism?
John Calvin on Tts 3:5 "By the washing of regeneration I have no doubt that he alludes, at least, to baptism, and even I will not object to have this passage expounded as relating to baptism;..."
Calvin "pushing an agenda" by admitting Paul is referring to baptism?
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By the title of the thread, I'm guessing someone learned a "new" old word and has become enamored by it as "proof" of his cockeyed beliefs.
But I am just guessing ...
But I am just guessing ...
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Alfred Plummer: "washing of regeneration" or as the RV more exactly has it "laver of regeneration" signifies he Christian rite of baptism, ought to be regarded as beyond dispute."
The Expositor's Bible
John MacArthur " Tts 3:5 this word for 'washing' can signify the receptacle of washing itself.
The MacArthur Bible Handbook
The Expositor's Bible
John MacArthur " Tts 3:5 this word for 'washing' can signify the receptacle of washing itself.
The MacArthur Bible Handbook
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you are certainly not without your own confirmation bias.
could it be that "λουτήρ" means "laver" or "basin for washing"
and that "λουτρόν" means "washing" ?
and that Paul knew how to speak and write Greek?
could it be that the ones who made the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew into Greek knew the language?
is it possible that ancient aliens want you to believe that power is in human rituals, not in the Lord? that circumcision by human hands and magical earthly vessels are greater than the Spirit?
one question:
could it be that "λουτήρ" means "laver" or "basin for washing"
and that "λουτρόν" means "washing" ?
and that Paul knew how to speak and write Greek?
could it be that the ones who made the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew into Greek knew the language?
is it possible that ancient aliens want you to believe that power is in human rituals, not in the Lord? that circumcision by human hands and magical earthly vessels are greater than the Spirit?
one question:
does flesh beget spirit?
allusion, metaphor, relation, sign, 'like figure' and symbol are not equality or parity.
no one on this forum has ever told you that H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism should not be practiced.
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word ..
(Ephesians 5:25-26)
who gave Himself up for the church?
is this an admonition for husbands to water-baptize their wives?
did Christ baptize with spirit and fire or with H[SUB]2[/SUB]O?
look at the text. see the word "WORD" there?
fin.
no one on this forum has ever told you that H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism should not be practiced.
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word ..
(Ephesians 5:25-26)
who gave Himself up for the church?
Christ
who sanctifies her?Christ
who has cleansed her?Christ
is this an admonition for husbands to water-baptize their wives?
NO.
did Christ baptize with spirit and fire or with H[SUB]2[/SUB]O?
look at the text. see the word "WORD" there?
You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
(John 15:3)
(John 15:3)
fin.
Also- another layer of context here:
SeaBass...
Do you believe people were saved the same way in the Old Testament as the New?
I ask this because full immersion baptism.. was not associated with conversion in the Old Testament.
In the Old Testament.. people were saved by grace through faith.. looking forward to what Jesus would do as the one sacrificial Lamb of God. The commandments and Law were their method of service after conversion.
David believed in a Redeemer.. Job did also... Abraham was justified by faith (before he offered up his son Isaac).
New Testament- people saved the same way... this has not changed! The METHOD OF SERVICE is what has changed.
The NT institution of the church is a New Covenant.. but not a different way of being converted.
SeaBass...
Do you believe people were saved the same way in the Old Testament as the New?
I ask this because full immersion baptism.. was not associated with conversion in the Old Testament.
In the Old Testament.. people were saved by grace through faith.. looking forward to what Jesus would do as the one sacrificial Lamb of God. The commandments and Law were their method of service after conversion.
David believed in a Redeemer.. Job did also... Abraham was justified by faith (before he offered up his son Isaac).
New Testament- people saved the same way... this has not changed! The METHOD OF SERVICE is what has changed.
The NT institution of the church is a New Covenant.. but not a different way of being converted.
When the "water" of Jn 3:5 is compared and PROPERLY harmonized with other born again verses....
John 3:5-----------Spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom - *no mention of baptism.
John 7:38,39------Spirit++++++++++++++living water>>>>>>>>>>>those BELIEVING IN HIM would receive
John 4:10,14------drink++++++++++++++water/living water>>everlasting life
1 Cor 12:13-------Spirit++++++++++++++Spirit/baptized>>>>>>>>>into one body/drink into one Spirit
Titus 3:5----------not by works of righteousness which we have done++++++but according to His mercy He saved us>>>>>>>through the washing of regeneration/renewing of the Holy Spirit
Eph 5:26----------washing of water>>>>by the word *not by water baptism.
Neither Jesus or Paul were referring to baptismal regeneration but to cleansing, *which is not accomplished by plain ordinary H20. The washing/water refers to spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23). The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." So you can cherry pick comments from commentaries all you want in a vain effort to accommodate your flawed theology, but you continue to miss the big picture.
We see water and living water in John 4:10; 14; and "living water and Spirit" in John 7:38-39. To automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Jesus connects water/living water with everlasting life. Living water is not water baptism. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If that sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. Nothing about "baptism" in John 3:5 and Jesus said "drink" and "water" in John 4:10; 14; 7:37-38. Paul said "drink into one Spirit" in 1 Corinthians 12:13. *This all fits together perfectly. *Hermeneutics.
John 3:5-----------Spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom - *no mention of baptism.
John 7:38,39------Spirit++++++++++++++living water>>>>>>>>>>>those BELIEVING IN HIM would receive
John 4:10,14------drink++++++++++++++water/living water>>everlasting life
1 Cor 12:13-------Spirit++++++++++++++Spirit/baptized>>>>>>>>>into one body/drink into one Spirit
Titus 3:5----------not by works of righteousness which we have done++++++but according to His mercy He saved us>>>>>>>through the washing of regeneration/renewing of the Holy Spirit
Eph 5:26----------washing of water>>>>by the word *not by water baptism.
Neither Jesus or Paul were referring to baptismal regeneration but to cleansing, *which is not accomplished by plain ordinary H20. The washing/water refers to spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23). The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." So you can cherry pick comments from commentaries all you want in a vain effort to accommodate your flawed theology, but you continue to miss the big picture.
We see water and living water in John 4:10; 14; and "living water and Spirit" in John 7:38-39. To automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Jesus connects water/living water with everlasting life. Living water is not water baptism. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If that sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. Nothing about "baptism" in John 3:5 and Jesus said "drink" and "water" in John 4:10; 14; 7:37-38. Paul said "drink into one Spirit" in 1 Corinthians 12:13. *This all fits together perfectly. *Hermeneutics.
Jesus said both Spirit and water play a role in the new birth.
Water's role:
The water, laver of water, baptismal font refers to water baptism where sins are remitted, washed away by the blood of Christ. THis is why Peter would say 'baptism doth also now save us'
The Spirit's/the Word's role:
The Holy Spirit authored the word that gives information on how to be saved and men who accept that word are in that sense begotten by the word. 1 Pet 1:23 Born again...by the word of God. Paul told those Christians in Corinth he had begat them through the gospel, 1 Cor 4:15. This word is how the Spirit acts upon the heart, Heb 4:12
Water's role:
The water, laver of water, baptismal font refers to water baptism where sins are remitted, washed away by the blood of Christ. THis is why Peter would say 'baptism doth also now save us'
The Spirit's/the Word's role:
The Holy Spirit authored the word that gives information on how to be saved and men who accept that word are in that sense begotten by the word. 1 Pet 1:23 Born again...by the word of God. Paul told those Christians in Corinth he had begat them through the gospel, 1 Cor 4:15. This word is how the Spirit acts upon the heart, Heb 4:12
People under both the OT and NT will be saved by an obedient faith to God. Yet those under the OT had a different law to obey than us today under Christ's NT law. They under the OT law did not have the shed blood of Christ so they did not have Christ's baptism of the great commission to remit sins. But they had to obediently keep those animal sacrifices for sin. Yet us today who live after the shed blood of Christ must obediently obey that command to be baptized for remission of sins Acts 2:38.
It remains bad exegesis to take a word that is used figuratively in one context and then think you can apply that figurative meaning in any context you wish. Doing so has you adding to God's word as in 1 Cor 12:13 Paul said "baptized" you change this to "spirit baptized". 1 Cor 1:14,16 Paul water baptized some of the Corinthians himself, Paul did not "spirit baptize" them. Phillip water baptized the eunuch and did not 'spirit baptized' the eunuch. And your EPh 5:26 did not even fit showing how they were cleansed(saved).
Nothing in Jn 3:5 indicates water is being used figuratively no more than "spirit" is being used figuratively, both are used literally. Paul refers to a literal laver of water in the new birth proving the new birth is not spiritual baptism but water baptism. No sense in mentioning literal water at all if it referred only to some kind of "spirit baptism". This water, laver of water is the means God has chosen to cut away the body of sin, Col 2:11,12, remit sins, Acts 2:38.
Nothing in Jn 3:5 indicates water is being used figuratively no more than "spirit" is being used figuratively, both are used literally. Paul refers to a literal laver of water in the new birth proving the new birth is not spiritual baptism but water baptism. No sense in mentioning literal water at all if it referred only to some kind of "spirit baptism". This water, laver of water is the means God has chosen to cut away the body of sin, Col 2:11,12, remit sins, Acts 2:38.
Absolutely.
In Mk 16:16 the ONE Lord spoke of the ONE faith and ONE baptism that saves.
In 1 Cor 12:13 Paul spoke of the ONE baptism that saves. In 1 Cor 1:14,16 Paul WATER baptized some of the Corinthians himself and since there is ONE baptism in effect per Eph 4:5 then 1 Cor 12:13 MUST be that exact same ONE water baptism of 1 Cor 1:14,16 and Mk 16:16. Some here will try and create more than the one baptism of Eph 4:5 violating this verse in an attempt to get around water baptism.
In Mk 16:16 the ONE Lord spoke of the ONE faith and ONE baptism that saves.
In 1 Cor 12:13 Paul spoke of the ONE baptism that saves. In 1 Cor 1:14,16 Paul WATER baptized some of the Corinthians himself and since there is ONE baptism in effect per Eph 4:5 then 1 Cor 12:13 MUST be that exact same ONE water baptism of 1 Cor 1:14,16 and Mk 16:16. Some here will try and create more than the one baptism of Eph 4:5 violating this verse in an attempt to get around water baptism.
No, this is not coherent for on one hand you just posted a verse that says ONE baptism EPh 4:5 but just now above you create more than ONE baptism when you say " we are baptism at the moment of salvation, the water baptism is only a public declaration that I was baptised before the day of my water baptism."
It's bad exegesis for you to take a word that is used literally in one context (example: Matthew 3:11 - I baptize you with water for repentance - water baptism) and then think you can apply that literal meaning in any context you wish. Read on - But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit (not literal water baptism) and with fire. *Notice the distinction.
I didn't change what Paul said. He clearly said by ONE SPIRIT (not by H20) we were all baptized INTO ONE BODY.. This is a clear reference to SPIRIT baptism, not water baptism.
Man accomplishes the work of water baptism and God accomplishes the work of Spirit baptism. You seem to confuse these two distinct baptisms (Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5). Ephesians 5:26 says cleansing her by the washing with water through the word. Not by plain ordinary H20.
Plain ordinary H20 has no power to cause man to become born again. As I already showed you in John 4:10, Jesus mentioned drink and living water. In John 4:14, Jesus mentioned drinks, water, fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, Paul said ..drink into one Spirit. In John 7:38-39, Jesus mentions living water..but this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water that causes spiritual cleansing and regeneration (born of water and the Spirit/washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit). The natural man can only seem to understand natural water (H20) here.
False. The literal laver of water is not the source or means of the new birth just as eating His flesh and drinking His blood (John 6:53) is not the literal means (cannibalism) by which we have eternal life. John 6:63 - It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. The new birth is spiritual and not physical. Believers are born again from above and not from plain ordinary H20.
There is water baptism (picture of the reality) and Spirit baptism (the reality). This water, laver of water is the picture, not the reality. The cutting away of the body of sin is signified, yet not procured by water baptism. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - In the symbol of baptism the resurrection to new life in Christ is pictured with an allusion to Christ's own resurrection and to our final resurrection. Paul does not mean to say that the new life in Christ is caused or created by the act of baptism. That is grossly to misunderstand him. The Gnostics and the Judaizers were sacramentalists, but not so Paul the champion of spiritual Christianity. He has just given the spiritual interpretation to circumcision which itself followed Abraham's faith (Romans 4:10-12). Baptism gives a picture of the change already wrought in the heart "through faith" in the working of God. God had power to raise Christ from the dead and he has power to give us new life in Christ by faith. In regards to Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.
Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?
Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, *BEFORE WATER BAPTISM (Acts 16:31 - believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?
Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*
I didn't change what Paul said. He clearly said by ONE SPIRIT (not by H20) we were all baptized INTO ONE BODY.. This is a clear reference to SPIRIT baptism, not water baptism.
Man accomplishes the work of water baptism and God accomplishes the work of Spirit baptism. You seem to confuse these two distinct baptisms (Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5). Ephesians 5:26 says cleansing her by the washing with water through the word. Not by plain ordinary H20.
Plain ordinary H20 has no power to cause man to become born again. As I already showed you in John 4:10, Jesus mentioned drink and living water. In John 4:14, Jesus mentioned drinks, water, fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, Paul said ..drink into one Spirit. In John 7:38-39, Jesus mentions living water..but this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water that causes spiritual cleansing and regeneration (born of water and the Spirit/washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit). The natural man can only seem to understand natural water (H20) here.
False. The literal laver of water is not the source or means of the new birth just as eating His flesh and drinking His blood (John 6:53) is not the literal means (cannibalism) by which we have eternal life. John 6:63 - It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. The new birth is spiritual and not physical. Believers are born again from above and not from plain ordinary H20.
There is water baptism (picture of the reality) and Spirit baptism (the reality). This water, laver of water is the picture, not the reality. The cutting away of the body of sin is signified, yet not procured by water baptism. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - In the symbol of baptism the resurrection to new life in Christ is pictured with an allusion to Christ's own resurrection and to our final resurrection. Paul does not mean to say that the new life in Christ is caused or created by the act of baptism. That is grossly to misunderstand him. The Gnostics and the Judaizers were sacramentalists, but not so Paul the champion of spiritual Christianity. He has just given the spiritual interpretation to circumcision which itself followed Abraham's faith (Romans 4:10-12). Baptism gives a picture of the change already wrought in the heart "through faith" in the working of God. God had power to raise Christ from the dead and he has power to give us new life in Christ by faith. In regards to Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.
Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?
Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, *BEFORE WATER BAPTISM (Acts 16:31 - believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?
Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*