Saved By Laver of Regeneration and Cleansed By A Laver of Water

[mailmandan]

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism... Eph 4:5

Amen!

Ephesians 4:5 - One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.. *Clearly a reference to Spirit baptism.

Now of course "one" baptism does not mean that only one baptism exists period, as SeaBass seems to be confused about by failing to make a category distinction. In Matthew 3:11 we see 3 baptisms. I indeed BAPTIZE you with 1. WATER unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will BAPTIZE you with the 2. HOLY SPIRIT and 3. FIRE. In Luke 12:50, Jesus said He had a baptism to be baptized with and how distressed He is until it accomplished! Of course, Jesus was not talking about water baptism or Spirit baptism here. He was referring to being immersed into suffering, namely His sacrificial death on the cross. In 1 Corinthians 10:2, Paul said that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses.." Of course they were not literally baptized into the body of Moses. So we need to always make sure that we rightly divide the word of truth when reading scripture and scripture must harmonize with other scripture.

 

[SeaBass]

It's bad exegesis for you to take a word that is used literally in one context (example: Matthew 3:11 - I baptize you with water for repentance - water baptism) and then think you can apply that literal meaning in any context you wish. Read on - But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit (not literal water baptism) and with fire. *Notice the distinction.

I didn't change what Paul said. He clearly said by ONE SPIRIT (not by H20) we were all baptized INTO ONE BODY.. This is a clear reference to SPIRIT baptism, not water baptism.

Man accomplishes the work of water baptism and God accomplishes the work of Spirit baptism. You seem to confuse these two distinct baptisms (Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5). Ephesians 5:26 says cleansing her by the washing with water through the word. Not by plain ordinary H20.

Plain ordinary H20 has no power to cause man to become born again. As I already showed you in John 4:10, Jesus mentioned drink and living water. In John 4:14, Jesus mentioned drinks, water, fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, Paul said ..drink into one Spirit. In John 7:38-39, Jesus mentions living water..but this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water that causes spiritual cleansing and regeneration (born of water and the Spirit/washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit). The natural man can only seem to understand natural water (H20) here.

False. The literal laver of water is not the source or means of the new birth just as eating His flesh and drinking His blood (John 6:53) is not the literal means (cannibalism) by which we have eternal life. John 6:63 - It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. The new birth is spiritual and not physical. Believers are born again from above and not from plain ordinary H20.

There is water baptism (picture of the reality) and Spirit baptism (the reality). This water, laver of water is the picture, not the reality. The cutting away of the body of sin is signified, yet not procured by water baptism. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - In the symbol of baptism the resurrection to new life in Christ is pictured with an allusion to Christ's own resurrection and to our final resurrection. Paul does not mean to say that the new life in Christ is caused or created by the act of baptism. That is grossly to misunderstand him. The Gnostics and the Judaizers were sacramentalists, but not so Paul the champion of spiritual Christianity. He has just given the spiritual interpretation to circumcision which itself followed Abraham's faith (Romans 4:10-12). Baptism gives a picture of the change already wrought in the heart "through faith" in the working of God. God had power to raise Christ from the dead and he has power to give us new life in Christ by faith. In regards to Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, *BEFORE WATER BAPTISM (Acts 16:31 - believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*

I did a quick internet search and found the following on proper hermeneutics:

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/LillegardHermeneutics.pdf

(1) From the above link: "The literal or proper sense of a word or phrase must always be accepted as the intended sense, unlessthere is an absolute necessity for understanding it figuratively. This is a very important principle for which we have the most practical use, not only in the Bible, butuniversally. The proper sense has the right of way. Otherwise it would be impossible to be sure of anything."

As I have been saying a word is to be taken at its literal face value unless something in the context proves it is being used figuratively. Nothing in the context shows that either "spirit" or "water" is used figuratively so water refers to the literal water of baptism. If you can make any word in any verse mean whatever you want to, then anyone can do the same thing to any word in any verse they choose and, as the link above says, "it would be impossible to be sure of anything".


(2) In the context Christ is speaking about the literal water baptism of John's that was for remission of sins (MK 1:4) that most of the Jews as Nicodemus rejected, (Lk 7:30) therefore he was upbraided by Jesus. If you want to make water in Jn 3:5 figurative to avoid water baptism then you must make 'water' in Jn 3:23 be figurative for something other than literal water also.


(3) In Mt 3:11 neither of the pronouns "you" in the verse refer to any of us today. TO find out who the "you" is that will be baptized with the Holy Spirit look to the fulfillment of these words in Acts 1:1-5 where it is the Apostles that was promised baptism with the Holy Ghost, not any one else. Jesus was fulfilling His promise He made to the apostles about the Comforter.

(4) Jn 7:39 "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" In the time period John wrote his epistle the HS had not yet been given therefore Jn 3:5 is not referring to baptism with the Holy Spirit where one receives the Spirit of God but is referring to water baptism.


(5)
Jn 3:5--------------------------Spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13--------------------Spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body

Both of these verses are saying the EXACT SAME THING and it is too obvious that water refers to water baptism.

There is ONE baptism in effect not two or three or four or five, Eph 4:5.

1 Cor 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized...."

How does the Spirit baptized? Just as Christ baptized..."When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)" Christ did not baptize any one Himself personally but baptized by giving His authority to the disciples to baptize and the HS baptizes the same way, not personally but giving disciples as Paul in 1 Cor 1:14,16 and Phillip Acts 8 to go make disciples by water baptizing them.


(6)
The laver of water is where water baptism takes place where God then removes the body of sin/remits sins. God Himself has chosen water baptism as the means by which he saves and no man can ever change that.

(7) Paul did not say the laver of water is just a picture not the reality, YOU are saying that.

As I pointed out in another post earlier in this thread, AT Robertson was wrong for;
1) nowhere in Rom 6 is it said that water baptism is just a symbol and nothing more. The context points out that water baptism is how salvation is secured for baptism is where one becomes dead and one must be dead to be free from sin. Rom 6:7

Jn 3:5-------------------spirit++++++++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Tts 3:5--------------Holy Ghost+++++++++++++laver of water>>>>>>>>>>>>saved

Again, both verses are saying the EXACT SAME THING where literal water refers to a literal water of a baptismal font.


2) in Tts 3:5 Paul said God saved us? How did God save us? By laver of water and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Paul plainly says the laver of water plays a role in SECURING salvation unlike Robertson says.

Lastly, Robertson is admitting the baptism is Rom 6 and Tts 3:5 is water baptism. Are you admitting this too? Or you going against Robertson and try to make the baptism in Rom 6 and Tts 3:5 some kind of spirit baptism?

 

[SeaBass]

Amen!

Ephesians 4:5 - One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.. *Clearly a reference to Spirit baptism.

Now of course "one" baptism does not mean that only one baptism exists period, as SeaBass seems to be confused about by failing to make a category distinction. In Matthew 3:11 we see 3 baptisms. I indeed BAPTIZE you with 1. WATER unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will BAPTIZE you with the 2. HOLY SPIRIT and 3. FIRE. In Luke 12:50, Jesus said He had a baptism to be baptized with and how distressed He is until it accomplished! Of course, Jesus was not talking about water baptism or Spirit baptism here. He was referring to being immersed into suffering, namely His sacrificial death on the cross. In 1 Corinthians 10:2, Paul said that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses.." Of course they were not literally baptized into the body of Moses. So we need to always make sure that we rightly divide the word of truth when reading scripture and scripture must harmonize with other scripture.

So "one" no longer means one but can mean 2 or 3 or 4 or how ever many you want one to be?

 

[Delivery]

I prefer to accept the scripture for what it says and the way it's written. I'm sure the apostles said what they meant and meant what they said. To look at the verse you quoted:

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

You notice he says "by the washing of water by the Word." This denotes a spiritually cleansing by washing your mind of the spiritual pollution of this world with the water of the Word, which is what happens when you hear somebody preach the word to you and you believe it and receive it and get saved.

 

[SeaBass]

I prefer to accept the scripture for what it says and the way it's written. I'm sure the apostles said what they meant and meant what they said. To look at the verse you quoted:

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

You notice he says "by the washing of water by the Word." This denotes a spiritually cleansing by washing your mind of the spiritual pollution of this world with the water of the Word, which is what happens when you hear somebody preach the word to you and you believe it and receive it and get saved.

If the cleansing is by the word only then why mention water at all?

God removes the body of sin in water baptism.

 

[passing_through]

But there is one baptism yet you created at least two. Is the baptism of 1 Cor 1:14,16 water baptism?

I thought that I made myself clear; and be nice if it is in your ability, please control yourself.

There IS only one baptism at the moment we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, then after conversion Christ commands us to be water baptised, as an act of obedience and to show all that you are dead, buried, and raised to walk in newness of life. We go down into the water to show that we died with Christ, we are raised to show that we have been resurrected with Christ.
One it the substance and one is a demonstration of our history in Christ.

To all, we are handling the precious word of God and we are brethren, I beg you, don't act out of love toward one whom Christ died. It quenches the Holy Spirit and grieves my spirit.

 

[posthuman]

So "one" no longer means one but can mean 2 or 3 or 4 or how ever many you want one to be?

(bearing in mind that you yourself want there to be at least two - by H[SUB]2[/SUB]O and by spirit?)

our salvation is by human hands or it's not.

 

[SeaBass]

I thought that I made myself clear; and be nice if it is in your ability, please control yourself.

There IS only one baptism at the moment we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, then after conversion Christ commands us to be water baptised, as an act of obedience and to show all that you are dead, buried, and raised to walk in newness of life. We go down into the water to show that we died with Christ, we are raised to show that we have been resurrected with Christ.
One it the substance and one is a demonstration of our history in Christ.

To all, we are handling the precious word of God and we are brethren, I beg you, don't act out of love toward one whom Christ died. It quenches the Holy Spirit and grieves my spirit.

You posted "There IS only one baptism at the moment we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, then after conversion Christ commands us to be water baptised,...."

I am reading TWO baptism in your statement here, not ONE. Why do you have TWO when just ONE is now in effect?

Since Christ COMMANDS water baptism that command would make it necessary else one finds himself in disobedience to Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

(bearing in mind that you yourself want there to be at least two - by H[SUB]2[/SUB]O and by spirit?)

our salvation is by human hands or it's not.

Jn 3:5 is one baptism with two elements; spirit and water. It is not two baptisms.

 

[posthuman]

If the cleansing is by the word only then why mention water at all?

God removes the body of sin BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST in THE ATONING WORK OF THE CROSS, FOR ALL THAT WILL BELIEVE

fixed your typo for you

 

[passing_through]

You posted "There IS only one baptism at the moment we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, then after conversion Christ commands us to be water baptised,...."

I am reading TWO baptism in your statement here, not ONE. Why do you have TWO when just ONE is now in effect?

Since Christ COMMANDS water baptism that command would make it necessary else one finds himself in disobedience to Christ.

Do you have a learning disability?

*There is only one REAL baptism (at conversion)

*Then there is a show to show all how you are identify with Christ.

 

[posthuman]

Jn 3:5 is one baptism with two elements; spirit and water. It is not two baptisms.

John 3:5 is not about H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism. it is about birth.

it is about two births, not one.

you must be born again


​

¿ claro ?

 

[mailmandan]

I did a quick internet search and found the following on proper hermeneutics:

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/LillegardHermeneutics.pdf

(1) From the above link: "The literal or proper sense of a word or phrase must always be accepted as the intended sense, unlessthere is an absolute necessity for understanding it figuratively. This is a very important principle for which we have the most practical use, not only in the Bible, butuniversally. The proper sense has the right of way. Otherwise it would be impossible to be sure of anything."

As I have been saying a word is to be taken at its literal face value unless something in the context proves it is being used figuratively. Nothing in the context shows that either "spirit" or "water" is used figuratively so water refers to the literal water of baptism. If you can make any word in any verse mean whatever you want to, then anyone can do the same thing to any word in any verse they choose and, as the link above says, "it would be impossible to be sure of anything".

Your faulty human logic has already been refuted in post #29.

(2) In the context Christ is speaking about the literal water baptism of John's that was for remission of sins (MK 1:4) that most of the Jews as Nicodemus rejected, (Lk 7:30) therefore he was upbraided by Jesus.

Was this baptism of repentance for "in order to obtain" the remission of sins in Mark 1:4 PRIOR TO PENTECOST or was it for "in regards to/on the basis of" the remission of sins that is received through repentance? Also, in Matthew 3:11, I baptize you with water for "in order to obtain" repentance or for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance? Jesus said born of water, NOT born of water baptism. Jesus also said water, living water, fountain of water springing up into eternal life (John 4:10,14).

If you want to make water in Jn 3:5 figurative to avoid water baptism then you must make 'water' in Jn 3:23 be figurative for something other than literal water also.

Not at all. In John 3:23, Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over and He and his disciples have already moved on to the land of Judea. You need to rightly divide the word of truth.

(3) In Mt 3:11 neither of the pronouns "you" in the verse refer to any of us today. TO find out who the "you" is that will be baptized with the Holy Spirit look to the fulfillment of these words in Acts 1:1-5 where it is the Apostles that was promised baptism with the Holy Ghost, not any one else. Jesus was fulfilling His promise He made to the apostles about the Comforter.

This is just a vain attempt to escape the truth that water baptism and Spirit baptism are TWO DISTINCT baptisms. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were ALL baptized into one body.. This is not limited to the apostles.

(4) Jn 7:39 "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" In the time period John wrote his epistle the HS had not yet been given therefore Jn 3:5 is not referring to baptism with the Holy Spirit where one receives the Spirit of God but is referring to water baptism.

False. We should not lose sight of the fact that when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, the ordinance of Christian baptism was not yet in effect. This important inconsistency in interpreting Scripture is seen when one asks those who believe baptism is required for salvation why the thief on the cross did not need to be baptized to be saved. A common reply to that question is: “The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant.” So, in essence, the same people who say the thief did not need to be baptized because he was “under the Old Covenant” will use John 3:5 as “proof” that baptism is necessary for salvation. They insist that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be baptized to be saved, even though he too was under the Old Covenant. If the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized (because he was under the Old Covenant), why would Jesus tell Nicodemus (who was also under the Old Covenant) that he needed to be baptized?

(5)
Jn 3:5--------------------------Spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13--------------------Spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body

John 3:5-----------Spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom - *no mention of baptism.
1 Cor 12:13------Spirit++++++++++Spirit/baptized>>>>>>>>>into one body/drink into one Spirit

Both of these verses are saying the EXACT SAME THING and it is too obvious that water refers to water baptism.

It's only obvious to the natural man who can only understand natural water. Take note of the words water/living water/drink/Spirit in John 3:5; 4:10,14; 7:37-39; 1 Corinthians 12:13. You just don't have eyes to see (1 Corinthians 2:11-14).

There is ONE baptism in effect not two or three or four or five, Eph 4:5.

Ephesians 4:5 - One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
1 Corinthians 12:13 - By one Spirit baptized into one body.. Clearly a reference to Spirit baptism. There is only ONE baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is SPIRIT baptism, NOT water baptism.

1 Cor 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized...."

By ONE SPIRIT, not by H20.

How does the Spirit baptized? Just as Christ baptized..."When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)" Christ did not baptize any one Himself personally but baptized by giving His authority to the disciples to baptize and the HS baptizes the same way, not personally but giving disciples as Paul in 1 Cor 1:14,16 and Phillip Acts 8 to go make disciples by water baptizing them.

Becoming a disciple of Jesus is a heart decision made before one gets water baptized and this decision is signified, but not procured in the waters of baptism.

(6)The laver of water is where water baptism takes place where God then removes the body of sin/remits sins. God Himself has chosen water baptism as the means by which he saves and no man can ever change that.

False. As usual, you are confusing the picture with the reality.

(7) Paul did not say the laver of water is just a picture not the reality, YOU are saying that.

Did Jesus say the bread and wine is just a picture/symbolic of His body and blood or did Jesus mean it was literally His body and blood? Common sense.

As I pointed out in another post earlier in this thread, AT Robertson was wrong for;
1) nowhere in Rom 6 is it said that water baptism is just a symbol and nothing more. The context points out that water baptism is how salvation is secured for baptism is where one becomes dead and one must be dead to be free from sin. Rom 6:7

AT Robertson is right and your church and the Roman Catholic church and the Mormon church and YOU are WRONG.

Jn 3:5-------------------spirit++++++++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Tts 3:5--------------Holy Ghost+++++++++++++laver of water>>>>>>>>>>>>saved

Again, both verses are saying the EXACT SAME THING where literal water refers to a literal water of a baptismal font.

Born of water/living water/Spirit/drink into one Spirit. Spiritual washing/purification of the soul accomplished by the Holy Spirit at salvation prior to water baptism.

2) in Tts 3:5 Paul said God saved us? How did God save us? By laver of water and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Paul plainly says the laver of water plays a role in SECURING salvation unlike Robertson says.

False. The laver of plain ordinary water does not literally spiritual cleanse us on the inside. Robertson is right.

Lastly, Robertson is admitting the baptism is Rom 6 and Tts 3:5 is water baptism. Are you admitting this too? Or you going against Robertson and try to make the baptism in Rom 6 and Tts 3:5 some kind of spirit baptism?

I'm not hearing Robertson admit this is water baptism and is also the cause of regeneration. Robertson - Were baptized into Christ (ebaptisqhmen ei Criston). First aorist passive indicative of baptizw. Better, "were baptized unto Christ or in Christ." The translation "into" makes Paul say that the union with Christ was brought to pass by means of baptism, which is not his idea, for Paul was not a sacramentarian. Ei is at bottom the same word as en. Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Ga 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. In regards to Titus 3:5, Robertson said - Probably in both cases there is a reference to baptism, but, as in Romans 6:3-6 , the immersion is the picture or the symbol of the new birth, not the means of securing it. And renewing of the Holy Spirit (kai anakainwsew pneumato agiou). "And renewal by the Holy Spirit" (subjective genitive). For the late word anakainwsi, see Romans 12:2 . Here, as often, Paul has put the objective symbol before the reality. The Holy Spirit does the renewing, man submits to the baptism after the new birth to picture it forth to men.


​

 

[mailmandan]

So "one" no longer means one but can mean 2 or 3 or 4 or how ever many you want one to be?

One means there is one baptism by which we are placed into the body of Christ, not 2 or 3 or 4 and that is by Spirit baptism, not water baptism. But there are still other baptism(s) plural (Matthew 3:11; Hebrews 6:2). If there was only one baptism that existed period and it was water baptism, then nobody would be baptized by one Spirit into one body, in contradiction to 1 Corinthians 12:13 - by one Spirit we were ALL baptized into one body.

 

[MarcR]

When the "water" of Jn 3:5 is compared and PROPERLY harmonized with other born again verses....

John 3:5-----------Spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom - *no mention of baptism.
John 7:38,39------Spirit++++++++++++++living water>>>>>>>>>>>those BELIEVING IN HIM would receive
John 4:10,14------drink++++++++++++++water/living water>>everlasting life
1 Cor 12:13-------Spirit++++++++++++++Spirit/baptized>>>>>>>>>into one body/drink into one Spirit
Titus 3:5----------not by works of righteousness which we have done++++++but according to His mercy He saved us>>>>>>>through the washing of regeneration/renewing of the Holy Spirit
Eph 5:26----------washing of water>>>>by the word *not by water baptism.

Neither Jesus or Paul were referring to baptismal regeneration but to cleansing, *which is not accomplished by plain ordinary H20. The washing/water refers to spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23). The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." So you can cherry pick comments from commentaries all you want in a vain effort to accommodate your flawed theology, but you continue to miss the big picture.

We see water and living water in John 4:10; 14; and "living water and Spirit" in John 7:38-39. To automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Jesus connects water/living water with everlasting life. Living water is not water baptism. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If that sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. Nothing about "baptism" in John 3:5 and Jesus said "drink" and "water" in John 4:10; 14; 7:37-38. Paul said "drink into one Spirit" in 1 Corinthians 12:13. *This all fits together perfectly. *Hermeneutics.

Jn 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
KJV



The Greek 'kai' is usually rendered 'and'; but, it may also be rendered: but, even, or 'which is'.


In light of Jn 7:38-39

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
KJV

which shows water to be a figure of the Holy Spirit, 'which is' may be the preferred reading in this context


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water 'which is' the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[posthuman]

'which is' may be the preferred reading in this context


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water 'which is' the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

except that in the immediate context, He says you must be born again (John 3:3) implying a second sort of birth, which is how Nicodemus understood Him to be speaking (John 3:4), and which He affirms in verse 7, and also in verse 6, when He says "what is born of flesh is flesh, and what is born of spirit is spirit" -- H[SUB]2[/SUB]O is not spirit. those who were baptized by John were not spoken of as having been "reborn" - in Acts 19 we see that H[SUB]2[/SUB]O immersion, signifying (but not tantamount to) repentance, was not sufficient.
throughout this conversation Christ is presenting a dichotomy. flesh vs. spirit. two births, one natural and insufficient by which to enter the kingdom of God, and a second (you must be born again) necessary to enter in. He is not talking about a single birth, and He is not talking about baptism by mere H[SUB]2[/SUB]O.
you can draw parallels, and one can insert regeneration by ritual immersion into an isolated verse, but it doesn't agree with the context of the entire conversation.
IMHO.

i'm sick of talking to (rather, "at") SeaBass about this. but happy to discuss it with you Marc -- as you might surmise, i don't believe that H[SUB]2[/SUB]O immersion alone is sufficient to save (shouldn't be any point of contention) or that spiritual regeneration only occurs at the point of taking part in the rite. by no means do i deny that we should do this, or that it has worth; what i affirm is that just as the circumcision that has saving and redeeming value is that which is not by human hands, so the baptism. as i understand the gospel, there is one immersion - and that is immersion into the person of Jesus Christ. hope we are not at odds about that; i have found much fellowship with you and your insights and understanding. even if we don't see completely eye-to-eye here, i love you, elder brother

 

[wattie]

Important note here: Baptism of the Holy Spirit.. is often not associated with eternal salvation either.

There were who groups in Acts that had this form of baptism.. like in Acts 2.. and other parts of Acts. This is a whole group being empowered.

Eg. a group of already saved people is baptised by the Holy Spirit in Acts.. they speak in tongues etc..

Acts 19: it has two different kinds of baptism:

(Act 19:1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Disciples- already converted. Look at Acts 18.


(Act 19:2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Have you received the Holy Ghost? Has the WHOLE GROUP received the Holy Spirit 'in the midst?'-- that is what he is effectively asking.


(Act 19:3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.


(Act 19:4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.


(Act 19:5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

These disciples were re-baptised in the name of Jesus..because Apollos had tried to baptise them and Apollos wasn't doing it right.


(Act 19:6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

NOW-- this part is the Holy Spirit baptism... the Holy Spirit 'UPON' them.



So here you see:

Conversion before water baptism and before baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Unless you are prepared to say a group of christian disciples weren't actually converted to begin with.

 

[SeaBass]

Do you have a learning disability?

*There is only one REAL baptism (at conversion)

*Then there is a show to show all how you are identify with Christ.

I am able to count and you continue to try and create two baptisms when there is just ONE in effect. As I said in an earlier post of mine, some try to create more baptisms than one per Eph 4:5 and violate that verse to find a way to get around the necessity of water baptism. You are one of them.

 

[SeaBass]

John 3:5 is not about H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism. it is about birth.

it is about two births, not one.

you must be born again


​

¿ claro ?

Jesus said water. No one here can et the water out of Jn 3:5 no matter how hard they may try.

 

[Stephen63]

IF this scripture of "laver of water" is true, & IF this meant saving the soul as implied, then this "laver" of water would be mentioned in the OT as part of the Temple ritual or Temple furnishings, because they are a shadow or symbol of the work & ministry of Christ. There IS a bronze laver in the Temple between the brazen altar & the Holy Place. The priests were to wash their hands and their feet in it before entering the Holy Place.The laver stood as a reminder that people need cleansing before approaching God. The priests atoned for their sins through a sacrifice at the brazen altar, but they cleansed themselves at the laver before serving in the Holy Place, so that they would be pure and not die before God.

The application for the church today is that we are forgiven through Christ’s work on the cross, but we are washed through His Word. We need to be washed daily in His Word to cleanse ourselves, so that we can serve and minister before Him.

BTW...... there weren't ANY lavers used for baptizing in the NT. Seems to me if they were that important to salvation, they would have been mentioned, & Jesus Himself would have been baptized by John in one to be the proper example. Sometimes the LACK of evidence in scripture is just as much evidence as the actual evidence itself.