Should Christians challenge supernatural claims.

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Mar 28, 2016
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#61
I read it, nothing about the miracles being stopped in there.
Miracles are simply miracles .God brings rain on the unjust just as those who he has justified by a work of His faith or labor of his three day labor of Love . It’s like common grace a sunny day or waking up upon the green side of the grass… in that way miracles are miracles nothing more and nothing less .God is nothing less.

He does not heal in respect to worship by human hands (will) as if he who performs all things... needed the hand(will) of the clay he is forming Christ in .....needing something from the clay.

If He does not live in temples made after the will of man (hands) then neither does he heal therapeutically by the same .

Interestingly the word worship this one time use in the whole scripture that it is used reflects the healing of God after no man


For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;Neither is worshipped (therapeuo) with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; Act 17:23


Strongs lexicon …2323 therapeuo {ther-ap-yoo'-o}

from the same as 2324; TDNT - 3:128,331; v

AV - heal 38, cure 5, worship 1; 44

1) to serve, do service 2) to heal, cure, restore to health



God used miracles in parables to hide the spiritual understanding from the lost.. But being healed temporally is not a product of the gospel as evidence a person has the Holy Spirit only to die later showing a person was under the wrath of God all the days of their lives..

If it was true then the many who have tried to duplicate it (drinking poison) would not be shown as false prophets, that bring false prophecy.That kind of poison (false doctrine) only effects those who go above and beyond that which is s written


And when they were escaped, then they knew that the island was called Melita.And the barbarous people shewed us no little kindness: for they kindled a fire, and received us every one, because of the present rain, and because of the cold.
And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live. And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm. Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.Act 28:1

What they did because they did not mix what they saw with faith (the unseen) is make the apostle into a god in the likeness of man ,causing them to commit blasphemy by having other gods before Christ violating the first commanmnet in doing so.

Poison as a metaphor is used in parables always representing the false gospel coming from false apostles.

Deuteronomy 32:24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.

Deuteronomy 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

Job 20:16 He shall suck the poison of asps: the viper's tongue shall slay him.

Psalms 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Psalms 140:3 They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah.

Romans 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

James 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#62
That wasn't the point and only this disputed portion of Mark was in question here and not only by him, as preacher4truth pointed out.
Okay so what other parts of Mark are possibly bogus? What other parts of the Bible do you and Mr. AT Robertson think are spurious?

Could you supply a list of scriptures that can not be trusted? How about starting a thread for listing scriptures that are doubtful.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#63
Okay so what other parts of Mark are possibly bogus? What other parts of the Bible do you and Mr. AT Robertson think are spurious?

Could you supply a list of scriptures that can not be trusted? How about starting a thread for listing scriptures that are doubtful.
Like I already said. I accept Mark 16 as scripture. AT Robertson and others have pointed out it's a disputed portion of scripture. That's it. I have no list of scriptures that cannot be trusted. That's enough straw man arguments. Now get back to discussing the OP with others.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#64
The strange part of that story to me is that the spirit in the woman actually told the truth.

The father of lies as the god of this world will agree with the word of God in order to get men to follow another authority from another author, another gospel. Along with the lie God sent Saul a strong delusion so that Saul could keep believing the father of lies. Samuel was dead asleep like all saints that leave this realm under the sun . Scripture does not promote following after workers with famiallar spirits (demons) that the Catholics call patron saints(3500 and rising). Samuel said nothing...

And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.1Sa 28:15
 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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#65
Okay so what other parts of Mark are possibly bogus? What other parts of the Bible do you and Mr. AT Robertson think are spurious?

Could you supply a list of scriptures that can not be trusted? How about starting a thread for listing scriptures that are doubtful.

Hi DJ,

As you look through the bible, there are other scriptures that will have a footnote to the side or at the bottom and say that the earliest greek manuscripts don't have that part of scripture within them.

It's a warning that later copyists may have added to scripture, but they keep them in the bible. Modern translations simply leave them out.

You can look here to see what other scriptures are in
question. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bible_verses_not_included_in_modern_translations
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#66
Straw man argument. :rolleyes:

I accept Mark 16 as scripture and Mr Robertson simply pointed out it's a disputed portion of scripture. That's a far cry from saying the Holy Bible is not wholly trustworthy.

It's you who is pushing false doctrine, that being - "whoever is not water baptized will be condemned."

Another straw man argument. Typical Campbellite. :rolleyes: There is no need to further derail this thread. Go back to discussing the OP.
Do not write something like post# 52 and then back pedal and say you "accept Mark 16:16 as scripture".

If you accept Mark 16:16 as scripture then there was no need for you to pop into this thread and make such a statement.

I grow tried of your labeling others as followers of long dead people. I have never even read anything by Campbell.

It would be more truthful to call you a "Robertsonite" since you seem to bring him up on many different subjects. But I won't stoop to your level.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#67
Like I already said. I accept Mark 16 as scripture. AT Robertson and others have pointed out it's a disputed portion of scripture. That's it. I have no list of scriptures that cannot be trusted. That's enough straw man arguments. Now get back to discussing the OP with others.
You pop in and cast doubt on Mark 16:16 being actual scripture and you accuse me of bringing up a straw man. Have you no boundaries?
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#68

Hi DJ,

As you look through the bible, there are other scriptures that will have a footnote to the side or at the bottom and say that the earliest greek manuscripts don't have that part of scripture within them.

It's a warning that later copyists may have added to scripture, but they keep them in the bible. Modern translations simply leave them out.

You can look here to see what other scriptures are in
question. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bible_verses_not_included_in_modern_translations
What mailmandan is implying is much worse then simply noting that some verses were not written in the first writings of scriptures. He is casting doubt on the trustworthiness of scripture itself. There was no need to question the validity of the text being used unless the goal was to say the verse is not scripture, don't trust it.
 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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#69
You seem to be missing the point of the OP.

The issue is not about confirming the source of the sign or wonder but the validity of the sign or wonder. In other words, should Christians care if the physical supernatural event is fake or not?

DJ, yes we should care.

I'm not going to just take someone's word for it - we're not taught to
believe everything you hear or see.

There's a scripture that says to know those who labor among you. There's a protection in knowing if someone is genuine or not.

My concern would be that of the warnings in the bible. Satan will be doing signs and wonders. Many will follow him for the signs and wonders and not care if God or satan did the miracle.


1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 Corinthians 14:29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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#70
Miracles of healing is only from God by the Holy Spirit. Don't be deceived by Satan. he wants you to believe that he can heal also. He didn't heal before Jesus came,and he sure did not heal after he left. Jesus told us that Satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy. Jesus came down hard on the people when they said that his healing was of the devil. He told them that even if you don't believe in me ,at least believe in the works I do. He also said, How can Satan's kingdom stand if it is divided against itself. Don't doubt the ability of Holy Spirit.Jesus says that it is unforgiveable in this world and the world to come. He calls it blaspheme.
 
May 13, 2017
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#71
okay then
but if it takes miracles and signs for one to believe THE TRUTH of THE GOSPEL , it is no different than Thomas' need to validate what is spiritual by what is physical
Yup and what did Jesus say to Thomas? Doubting God is not a good thing
John 20:27
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
 
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Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
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#72
Anything that is from God will testify Christ.

1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

Does your miracle bring glory to Christ, or to the person(s) who preform it?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#73
Do not write something like post# 52 and then back pedal and say you "accept Mark 16:16 as scripture".

If you accept Mark 16:16 as scripture then there was no need for you to pop into this thread and make such a statement.

I grow tried of your labeling others as followers of long dead people. I have never even read anything by Campbell.

It would be more truthful to call you a "Robertsonite" since you seem to bring him up on many different subjects. But I won't stoop to your level.
I did not back pedal. I was simply stating to preacher4truth (in response to his post) that must explain why AT Robertson referred to Mark 16:16 as a disputed portion of scripture. Plain and simple. Then your feathers got ruffled and you got carried away with your run away train straw man arguments.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#74
Anything that is from God will testify Christ.

1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

Does your miracle bring glory to Christ, or to the person(s) who preform it?
So you will accept as real the claim of someone raising the dead if they "confess that Jesus has come in the flesh"?

Many charlatans confess this very thing and lead many to their doom.

Who is given "glory" is up for debate in the mind of the witness.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#75
What mailmandan is implying is much worse then simply noting that some verses were not written in the first writings of scriptures. He is casting doubt on the trustworthiness of scripture itself. There was no need to question the validity of the text being used unless the goal was to say the verse is not scripture, don't trust it.
Absolutely false. That was NOT my implication. Your straw man arguments are getting old.
 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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#76
Miracles of healing is only from God by the Holy Spirit. Don't be deceived by Satan. he wants you to believe that he can heal also. He didn't heal before Jesus came,and he sure did not heal after he left. Jesus told us that Satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy. Jesus came down hard on the people when they said that his healing was of the devil. He told them that even if you don't believe in me ,at least believe in the works I do. He also said, How can Satan's kingdom stand if it is divided against itself. Don't doubt the ability of Holy Spirit.Jesus says that it is unforgiveable in this world and the world to come. He calls it blaspheme.
Matthew 24:24

For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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#77
What mailmandan is implying is much worse then simply noting that some verses were not written in the first writings of scriptures. He is casting doubt on the trustworthiness of scripture itself. There was no need to question the validity of the text being used unless the goal was to say the verse is not scripture, don't trust it.

Hi DJ,

I think you may have misunderstood Dan. That's not what I understood when I read his posts.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#78
I did not back pedal. I was simply stating to preacher4truth (in response to his post) that must explain why AT Robertson referred to Mark 16:16 as a disputed portion of scripture. Plain and simple. Then your feathers got ruffled and you got carried away with your run away train straw man arguments.
You are fooling no one.

You were using this thread to push your false gospel by casting doubt to the validity of the scripture to your baptism narrative.

This thread is not about baptism and you know it.

You are blind to the simple message of scripture and will go to any length to push your agenda. Even to the point of impugning the scriptures themselves and still you have the gall to accuse me of bringing up a straw man.
 
May 13, 2017
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#79
You are fooling no one.

You were using this thread to push your false gospel by casting doubt to the validity of the scripture to your baptism narrative.

This thread is not about baptism and you know it.

You are blind to the simple message of scripture and will go to any length to push your agenda. Even to the point of impugning the scriptures themselves and still you have the gall to accuse me of bringing up a straw man.
Wow Here's real Christianity at work! Cut! stab! judge! condemn! fight! How about displaying some of the real thing for a while?
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#80

Hi DJ,

I think you may have misunderstood Dan. That's not what I understood when I read his posts.
How is the cause of Christ advanced by such rhetoric as suggesting that the scripture may be in error?

What is there to gain other then pushing a view for using such tactics.

Baptism had no part in this thread, I know you know this. Do not defend him. He will use any means to push his agenda.