Should we follow Christ, or follow Christ’s Father or follow a triune God?

[RedTent]

Thanks for the response! If u don't mind me asking again, is it OK to lift a sheep out of a pit on the sabbath? Blessings!

Scripture says it is not only OK, but necessary.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have been told that Christ rebelled against His Father like so many of our Teenagers do.That it isn’t a triune God, or God as One, but Christ is a new God.

People say He did away with all the old ways His Father said to behave and made brand new ones.His Father had a special people, and some of those people turned out to be just rotten, like the Pharisees, so the Father’s people were all to be shunned and even punished. Anything those people did, we are not to do.It wasn’t just the Pharisees, it was all the Jews that were chosen by Christ’s Dad.Besides, a lot of them rejected Christ, so people said they all had to be ignored.

1. Christ did not rebell.
2. Christ fulfilled the old ways, because the Old ways could never save us, they were only given as a shadow of what was to come (the new ways) and as a teacher to lead us to Christ (to prove we needed a savior and how he would save us)

red, your extreme fanaticism to continue to hold yourself under law is dangerous. You no better than the pharisees and jews in Pauls day who wanted to add works of the law to the gospel of Christ and everyday living. You want to put people of God under the burden that the jews, the apostles and the prophets could not themselves handle. Why is this? do you want to much to puff yourself up and make yourself worthy you will ignore what Christ did for you?

 

[RedTent]

1. Christ did not rebell.
2. Christ fulfilled the old ways, because the Old ways could never save us, they were only given as a shadow of what was to come (the new ways) and as a teacher to lead us to Christ (to prove we needed a savior and how he would save us)

red, your extreme fanaticism to continue to hold yourself under law is dangerous. You no better than the pharisees and jews in Pauls day who wanted to add works of the law to the gospel of Christ and everyday living. You want to put people of God under the burden that the jews, the apostles and the prophets could not themselves handle. Why is this? do you want to much to puff yourself up and make yourself worthy you will ignore what Christ did for you?

I agree that holding oneself under law would be deadly, more than dangerous. Salvation is not by law but by grace and faith.

Your fanatical insistence on ignoring law is also dangerous. It is also dangerous to limit the function of law as you do. According to Christ, even though it has nothing to do with your salvation that is guaranteed by Christ, it does make you least in the kingdom of heaven.

"you are no better than Pharisees and Jews in Pauls day"!!! Well, Christ was a Jew altho Paul never met Him in the flesh, they lived at the same time. Christ's brother James was head of the Christian council in Jerusalem. I am not as good as lots of the Jews in Paul's day, thousands who were Christians. So it does me proud to identify me with some of these.

To accuse me of not going to Christ for the forgiveness of my sins is the same as saying "RedTent, you go to hell". That puts YOU in danger of hellfire.

 

[RedTent]

1. Christ did not rebell.
2. Christ fulfilled the old ways, because the Old ways could never save us, they were only given as a shadow of what was to come (the new ways) and as a teacher to lead us to Christ (to prove we needed a savior and how he would save us)

red, your extreme fanaticism to continue to hold yourself under law is dangerous. You no better than the pharisees and jews in Pauls day who wanted to add works of the law to the gospel of Christ and everyday living. You want to put people of God under the burden that the jews, the apostles and the prophets could not themselves handle. Why is this? do you want to much to puff yourself up and make yourself worthy you will ignore what Christ did for you?

How can you, in one breath say Christ did not rebel (Christ didn't rebel, you have that right) and in the next say the old ways of God had to be changed by Christ? Did Christ do as the Father told Him to do and complete what the Father told of or did Christ change all the Father did in rebellion? Make up your mind!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How can you, in one breath say Christ did not rebel (Christ didn't rebel, you have that right) and in the next say the old ways of God had to be changed by Christ?

I did not say that
the old ways were not changed, they were fulfilled (the law) in christ, and in us.

it is a HUGE difference to say they have changed, than to say they no longer have any value.

Did Christ do as the Father told Him to do and complete what the Father told

if he did not. we are doomed are we not?

of or did Christ change all the Father did in rebellion? Make up your mind!

No. Christ fulfilled. The tutor or schoolmaster can now do its job,

why do you want to ignore the schoolmaster, and continue to want to be led by that which Christ fulfilled for you? why has it not done its job in you? that you still want to be placed UNDER the schoolmaster?

 

[Dan_473]

Scripture says it is not only OK, but necessary.

A car? Could u have a car towed out of a ditch on the sabbath?

 

[just-me]

The temple is what has changed being in us rather than having one made by man. If we would concentrate on the temple concerning what is old and new there would be agreement I'm sure. As far as us being a living sacrifice the spiritual principles of the old and new still apply.

 

[just-me]

A car? Could u have a car towed out of a ditch on the sabbath?

Spiritual applications, not physical.

Romans 8:5-7
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be .

 

[RedTent]

I did not say that
the old ways were not changed, they were fulfilled (the law) in christ, and in us.

it is a HUGE difference to say they have changed, than to say they no longer have any value.

if he did not. we are doomed are we not?

No. Christ fulfilled. The tutor or schoolmaster can now do its job,

why do you want to ignore the schoolmaster, and continue to want to be led by that which Christ fulfilled for you? why has it not done its job in you? that you still want to be placed UNDER the schoolmaster?

Why do you insist that the only way the law acts is as a schoolmaster?

I was a mother. I taught my children right from wrong. I cooked for them. I drove them to school. I did many things as a mother, and if you listed one as what I did and ignored all the other, I would not have liked it. God doesn't like it when you do that about His law!

Your definition of 'fulfilled" is flawed. If you have a cup of coffee that is half full and someone fills it, they don't throw out what was there, they fill it. If a dish needs salt to be good and you put salt on it, you don't throw the dish out because you want the salt.

God is our One True God, we are to be led by that God all of God. Your "want to be placed under the schoolmaster" is in error. If I wanted to listen to the schoolmaster for my salvation, I would be under the schoolmaster and that does not work. Only Christ can save. But Christ NEVER said not to listen to His Father! His Father, one with Christ, even sent the Holy Spirit to help us listen.

 

[chubbena]

A car? Could u have a car towed out of a ditch on the sabbath?

This question should probably direct to those who don't observe the Sabbath but request those who do to abide by the whole law including animal sacrifices. They probably know and care about a lot more details on the "how to's".
And what do you think about towing a car out of a ditch on the Sabbath?

 

[RedTent]

A car? Could u have a car towed out of a ditch on the sabbath?

You are trying to put the law of love and the law of resting in the Lord rather than your work into legalistic terms. I would have to be the Lord to know all that is in your heart, all of how the car in the ditch contributed to love of the Lord and the people you are responsible for, I would have to be God to answer that.

Perhaps, in your case, leaving the car there until after the day you designated as your Sabbath is right. Perhaps, it would harm those you were responsible for, so in love you needed it out. It would be between you and God, there is no rule above the rule of love and resting on the Sabbath.

The Talmud has a lot of how to do it rules, and Christ said that was man made. Man has made a lot of rules saying you don't need to have a special day for the Lord, that is like the Talmud, it is man made.

 

[chubbena]

I did not say that
the old ways were not changed, they were fulfilled (the law) in christ, and in us.

it is a HUGE difference to say they have changed, than to say they no longer have any value.



if he did not. we are doomed are we not?



No. Christ fulfilled. The tutor or schoolmaster can now do its job,

why do you want to ignore the schoolmaster, and continue to want to be led by that which Christ fulfilled for you? why has it not done its job in you? that you still want to be placed UNDER the schoolmaster?

If the schoolmaster has done his job, we would be in a perfect world where there is no crime, no tear and no suffering like the new heaven and new earth, wouldn't we?
The reason why the Messiah says "until the heaven and earth pass away".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why do you insist that the only way the law acts is as a schoolmaster?

Because Paul said this. Do I listen to you and all the judiazers or Paul?

I was a mother. I taught my children right from wrong. I cooked for them. I drove them to school. I did many things as a mother, and if you listed one as what I did and ignored all the other, I would not have liked it. God doesn't like it when you do that about His law!

He does not like it when you use the law he gave to CONDEMN YOU. to LEAD YOU TO CHRIST, to SHOW WHAT CHRIST WOULD DO, And make it as a means to be righteous, or do good deeds, when it was NEVER intended to do this.

Paul spent most of his writings condemning this lawyer attitude, did paul waste his time?

Your definition of 'fulfilled" is flawed. If you have a cup of coffee that is half full and someone fills it, they don't throw out what was there, they fill it. If a dish needs salt to be good and you put salt on it, you don't throw the dish out because you want the salt.

Your examples are flawed. God gave us a cup completely able to save us, We do not need to keep drinking of the same cup. Why do you search for food which perishes. and not drink the food God came to give you which will lead to eternal life?

God is our One True God, we are to be led by that God all of God. Your "want to be placed under the schoolmaster" is in error. If I wanted to listen to the schoolmaster for my salvation, I would be under the schoolmaster and that does not work. Only Christ can save. But Christ NEVER said not to listen to His Father! His Father, one with Christ, even sent the Holy Spirit to help us listen.

yeah he did. So why are you not listening?

By the HS, Paul said the law was given for one purpose and one purpose only, to keep us of faith until the savior came. It was given as a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, But after it has done it job, we no longer need to be under that schoolmaster. But all you want to do is open thread after thread trying to tell us we MUST continue to follow the schoolmaster. and if we do not. We are not doing Gods will.

Well my friend, you are sadly mistaken.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If the schoolmaster has done his job, we would be in a perfect world where there is no crime, no tear and no suffering like the new heaven and new earth, wouldn't we?
The reason why the Messiah says "until the heaven and earth pass away".

lol.. Well if we were talking about the WORLD. you would be correct. But we are not. we are talking of individual people.

if the schoolmaster has not yet been fulfilled in YOU.

1. You are not saved
2. You are not headed to heaven, but to hell
3. You are not a child of God
4. You are still satans child
5. You better open your eyes, and listen to the schoolmaster, so you can be saved.

For those of us who are saved, We need to follow the law of Love, Not the law of moses. which could never show us how to love, and Do Gods will in the way HE wants us to do.

 

[VCO]

I have been told that Christ rebelled against His Father like so many of our Teenagers do.That it isn’t a triune God, or God as One, but Christ is a new God.

People say He did away with all the old ways His Father said to behave and made brand new ones.His Father had a special people, and some of those people turned out to be just rotten, like the Pharisees, so the Father’s people were all to be shunned and even punished. Anything those people did, we are not to do.It wasn’t just the Pharisees, it was all the Jews that were chosen by Christ’s Dad.Besides, a lot of them rejected Christ, so people said they all had to be ignored.

His old fashioned Father told people to have special Holidays, with prophecies in them and celebrations of some of what the Father had done.Followers of Christ said those holidays had to be gotten rid of.The new holidays got rid of any idea of following His old fashioned Father.They still wanted holidays, so they changedthe ones they were used to so they would be about Christ.It didn’t take long for those new holidays to be thought of as the only right ones, their beginnings were forgotten completely.They soon became tradition, and tradition was taken as scripture.

His Father had made some legal contracts with the people.Christ made some, too.So the new contract Christ made was to wipe out any promise or contract the outdated Father made.The Father had a rainbow as part of one of these legal documents and they couldn’t get rid of that, but most people forgot about that.The rainbow itself is just too hard to dispose of.

There were letters they say explains the new way and how His Father had been all wrong and Christ was right.The Father helped write those letters, but the people said they proved the Father was an outdated fuddy duddy.

But, if you really study what Christ said and even what the letters say about Christ, He doesn’t sound at all like a rebellious Teen.He sounds like one with His Father and in complete unity with Him.One that truly obeyed His Father and did just what His Father had said He would do all along.His Father even prepared the world just for His Son.Actually, everything the Father did was about the Son and what the Son did for us.I don’t think Christ was a rebellious teen at all, but it is people who are rebellious and blame the Son.

God is a God of all mankind, but the bible explaining God is written by Hebrew people from a Hebrew culture, and mostly in a unique Hebrew language very difficult to translate.God counseled Hebrews to be sure that they would welcome anyone who wanted to join them, but for 4,000 years those who joined also joined the Hebrew race.

When Paul was put in charge of taking Christ to the gentiles, Paul was also charged with separating Jewish culture from God’s principles.On top of all this, Christ became the spirit and truth of these principles, taking away the symbols.When scripture says this is a change, we read it as cancelling old and replacing it with something entirely new when it is always based on the same basic thing, except now in spirit and truth.

The Christian Jews had a terrible time accepting that it did not require Jewish customs to be saved in Jesus.Gentiles are still having a terrible time learning exactly what Jesus changed and how.Blood remained, but Christ’s blood worked much better.The high priest remained the same, but Christ took his place and it was perfected.Many things were perfected, but always had a base in what was before.Scripture about the change is exact and complete, but it requires reading the Torah and believing it to understand the entire story.

The Jews in Jerusalem charged Paul.Acts 21:28They stirred up the whole crowd and seized him, shouting, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man who is teaching everybody everywhere to despise our people, our Law and this place.It was decided to stone him to death. It is an interesting story, please read it, through Acts 26.

This is the final outcome:26:30-31 - Then the king rose to his feet and so did the governor and Bernice and those sitting with them, and when they had retired from the assembly they discussed the matter among themselves and agreed, "This man is doing nothing to deserve either death or imprisonment."

We need to come to the same conclusion.

What a mixed up mess people have made of this!In Acts it tells us that when Paul was trying to explain all of this, they thought, like many do today, that the teaching was against the Father’s principles.They even wanted to kill Paul by stoning for teaching against God the Father.He was freed of that charge, then, we should free him of that charge today.

Today, many believe that it is right to be against the Father’s principles and that is what Paul said to do.I don’t think that is what Paul is saying at all.Paul is saying to both Jew and gentile: Col_2:16. Therefore, don't let anyone judge you in regard to food and drink or in the matter of a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.

Look at some of the mistakes missionaries made when they went to other cultures, like in the south seas.They were so determined to change the culture that often they forgot the scripture. Just as the Jews told Paul he was to teach gentiles to obey Jewish ways to be included in the church in the first century.

Paul preached the gospel, Paul preached the Lord, not the rituals that became cultural.We are to go to scripture, not our culture.God accepts people from all cultures.

I have a couple of suggestions, first and foremost, use a Size 2 Font, these old eyes cannot hardly read that Size 1 Font. In fact I changed your Calibri Font above to a Size 3, see how much easier it is to read. I personally use Size 2 Veranda here, which is equal to a size 10 font on WORD.

TWO, support your beliefs strictly with the Word of GOD, and not what OTHERS say. WHY? Because the absolute BEST example given to us on how we are to DETERMINE what is of GOD and what is NOT was given to us in this verse:

Acts 17:11 (NIV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

NOWHERE in Scripture does it say Christ ever rebelled against the Father, or that would have been sin on HIS part, and he could have ONLY died for his sin then.

1 John 3:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.

In the interest of being brief, I am going to post a series of verses that prove what is TRUE, compared to some of the false statements you posted above.

Matthew 5:17-18 (ASV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

Romans 3:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Luke 22:41-42 (NASB)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] And He withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and began to pray,
[SUP]42 [/SUP] saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

John 15:10 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

John 10:30 (NKJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] I and My Father are one."

John 14:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

2 Corinthians 5:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

John 10:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Exodus 31:12-17 (ASV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily ye shall keep my sabbaths: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am Jehovah who sanctifieth you.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that profaneth it shall surely be put to death; for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to Jehovah: whosoever doeth any work on the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Hebrews 10:24-25 (HCSB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And let us be concerned about one another in order to promote love and good works,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] not staying away from our ⌊worship⌋ meetings, as some habitually do, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

Romans 14:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

I find it is always better to let Scripture interpret Scripture, when you are trying to determine what is Truth, and what is a False Statement about Scripture.

 

[just-me]

lol.. Well if we were talking about the WORLD. you would be correct. But we are not. we are talking of individual people.

if the schoolmaster has not yet been fulfilled in YOU.

1. You are not saved
2. You are not headed to heaven, but to hell
3. You are not a child of God
4. You are still satans child
5. You better open your eyes, and listen to the schoolmaster, so you can be saved.

For those of us who are saved, We need to follow the law of Love, Not the law of moses. which could never show us how to love, and Do Gods will in the way HE wants us to do.

Even though I have you on ignore, I had to look at this one for edifications sake. Are you referring to the law as not mentioning the love of God and our neighbor? I think the word of God makes it very clear that loving your neighbor, and loving God were in the "law of Moses." Didn't God tell Moses what to say and write, or should we think that Moses wrote of his own outlook on what he thought was right?

Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge , nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Both versus are the law, and the law goes into detail how to exact that love. By the way, God bless you, and faith without works is dead being alone.

 

[crossnote]

This is NOT off topic, this is right on. Scripture, if it all is of God must be listened to, all of it. Otherwise, it is saying that Christ is rebelling about His Father, not that they are one!

If that isn't off topic (sabbath question) then nothing is as long as it's in the bible since, hey, ''Scripture, if it all is of God must be listened to, all of it."

So um, Redtent, 'where did Cain find his wife?'

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Even though I have you on ignore, I had to look at this one for edifications sake. Are you referring to the law as not mentioning the love of God and our neighbor? I think the word of God makes it very clear that loving your neighbor, and loving God were in the "law of Moses." Didn't God tell Moses what to say and write, or should we think that Moses wrote of his own outlook on what he thought was right?

Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge , nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Both versus are the law, and the law goes into detail how to exact that love. By the way, God bless you, and faith without works is dead being alone.

1. Faith without works is dead. But that does not mean we have to go around doing the works of the law. Which we can not do according to what it requires (cursed is everyone who does not OBEY and CONFIRM ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW (by the way how good at you are this? do you realise you are cursed if you do not obey completely? or are you still trying to obey it so you can seem righteous?? Or to earn your own righteousness??)
2. ALL OF THE LAW and prophets are found in TWO COMMANDS.

A. Love the lord your God
B. Love your neighbor.

In those TWO COMMANDS are found ALL THE LAW AND PROPHETS.

so why follow the law. when all you have to do is follow those TWO COMMANDS, and you will fulfill the law?

Oh thats right. God was wrong. Jesus did not know what he was talking about. And the things which proves I am guilty was given to show me how to do good (rolls eyes) You should put me back on ignore. You will prevent yourself from looking like the lawyer you are.

 

[RickyZ]

please use a larger font............I simply can not read your posts in that size font (just asking, not criticizing)

Amen to that - you must be blessed with good eyes, Red!

 

[Dan_473]

Spiritual applications, not physical.

Romans 8:5-7
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be .

I think you are saying yes, OK to tow car on Sabbath... because it is physical thing... what is general thinking among Sabbath keepers?