Should we follow Christ, or follow Christ’s Father or follow a triune God?

[VCO]

this is funny it is like saying it is better to disobey than to obey with motive....why do we obey isn't it because we love God so we must have motive , the motive is to please him. Obeying God without motive will become like being forced to obey.

• Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
  2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
  
  King James Version (KJV)
  
  [SUP]7 [/SUP]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
  [SUP]8 [/SUP]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
  [SUP]9 [/SUP]Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

You can disagree all you want, but you cannot disagree that it is GOD who said of righteousnesses done for the WRONG MOTIVE or Selfish MOTIVE, that they are a pile of "filthy rags" in HIS OPINION. They cannot earn any part of Salvation, nor will they be rewarded, they will be burned up.

2 Timothy 3:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness,

Isaiah 64:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Philippians 2:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[RickyZ]

you cannot disagree that it is GOD who said of righteousnesses done for the WRONG MOTIVE or Selfish MOTIVE, that they are a pile of "filthy rags" in HIS OPINION.

Philippians 1: 15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

It would seem that Paul disagrees...

 

[VCO]

this is funny it is like saying it is better to disobey than to obey with motive....why do we obey isn't it because we love God so we must have motive , the motive is to please him. Obeying God without motive will become like being forced to obey.

• Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
  . . .

"AGAPAO" LOVE is the only MOTIVE for obedience that God honors. Obeying HIM to earn part of your Salvation (which is disrespect for HIS FINISHED WORK), or an attempt to manipulate Him into a position of "Now you owe me GOD."; will NEVER be honored by GOD.

I tried to edit my post because I thought of another point, but the absolutely frustrating 5 minute time limit ran out. On another Christian Discussion site that I used to post on, they gave us 36 hours to edit our posts. Anyhow that is why two posts for one of yours.

I am not sure why you posted Rom. 6:16; perhaps you had better read it in a modern English Version, before you tell me why you used it.

Romans 6:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Don’t you know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey—either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness? { Which is the lifelong process of Sanctification, becoming more and more like Christ learning to walk in holiness; NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH SALVATION. }

The idea that we do not believe in obedience, is a lie peddled by those who think they must earn part of their Salvation. We have always taught that genuinely having been SAVED will produce a lifestyle of obedience MOTIVATED purely by "AGAPAO" LOVE for HIM.

 

[RickyZ]

" but the absolutely frustrating 5 minute time limit ran out. On another Christian Discussion site that I used to post on, they gave us 36 hours to edit our posts.

I think the idea is so you can't change your post after someone has read/replied to it.

 

[RedTent]

Philippians 1: 15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

It would seem that Paul disagrees...

There is absolutely no disagreement here, the disagreement is in man's understanding of what Paul says. First there is an explanation of how God looks at our works done with the wrong motives works for us, then Paul explains that God can use Christ preached for our good regardless of the motives used for the preaching.

All scripture is from the one true God, same source spoken in unity.

 

[VCO]

Philippians 1: 15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

It would seem that Paul disagrees...

I know we got off the Trinity part of the debate, a little bit, but debating the Trinity led to what is genuine Saving Faith.

What Paul was reiterating in the verses above was, Preaching the Word of GOD, will never come back VOID as the Bible says. In other words, He blesses HIS WORD being taught, even if the Pastor is unsaved. He is NOT honoring that Pastor, but the hearer who responds to HIS WORD.


BUT WE WERE ALSO DEBATING if Salvation is by Grace through Faith ALONE,
or by Grace through Faith, PLUS WORKS.

A side line debate that spun off that, is "Are all perceived good works rewarded"
or only those done out of (agapaô) LOVE for Him.

 

[secularhermit]

[h=2]Should we follow Christ, or follow Christ’s Father or follow a triune God?[/h]
Just a tiny thing, regarding that only point, here I have a clue I kept for me:

Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Is there any another way to follow The father than following Jesus´s?

Mar 9:7 And a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is my beloved Son; listen to him."

Mat 17:5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him."

 

[RedTent]

Is there any another way to follow The father than following Jesus´s?

I am sure this sums it all up, when we hear this with understanding. In the gospel of John it says Christ is the word and the word was there from the beginning.

All scripture is pointed to the way to salvation and how to live on this earth with what Hebrews called shalom.

Salvation was always about blood, about what Christ did for us in eternal time. We count our time as before Christ lived with us as a man and After Christ. To follow scripture is to follow Christ. To deny the Father is to deny Christ. Even when we deny the teachings of God that used the thousands of years before Christ was crucified is to deny Christ, for they were about Christ, too. Some even say that the only scripture that counts was the scripture using the 50 or so years in AD time. When they say it is the only worthwhile scripture to know it is not following Christ, for it was about Christ.

 

[newbirth]

"AGAPAO" LOVE is the only MOTIVE for obedience that God honors. Obeying HIM to earn part of your Salvation (which is disrespect for HIS FINISHED WORK), or an attempt to manipulate Him into a position of "Now you owe me GOD."; will NEVER be honored by GOD.

I tried to edit my post because I thought of another point, but the absolutely frustrating 5 minute time limit ran out. On another Christian Discussion site that I used to post on, they gave us 36 hours to edit our posts. Anyhow that is why two posts for one of yours.

I am not sure why you posted Rom. 6:16; perhaps you had better read it in a modern English Version, before you tell me why you used it.

Romans 6:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Don’t you know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey—either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness? { Which is the lifelong process of Sanctification, becoming more and more like Christ learning to walk in holiness; NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH SALVATION. }

The idea that we do not believe in obedience, is a lie peddled by those who think they must earn part of their Salvation. We have always taught that genuinely having been SAVED will produce a lifestyle of obedience MOTIVATED purely by "AGAPAO" LOVE for HIM.

If people obey the word of God and keep the word close to their heart we would not be having this discussion...
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
when someone says they are a christian certain thing are expected of them ,like being born again , obedience to the word , abstaining from evil , refusing to commit sin. No one is perfect but that does not stop us from striving for perfection. So a practising christian struggling with motive tells me something is terribly wrong .Christ should our only motive you can't serve two masters. Even so I cannot tell what another man motive is so it is basically an internal issue. So what is the gain when someone say to you your work is as filthy rags? He who works does it unto the Lord or so it ought to be...but it is not for us to judge.

 

[secularhermit]

If that were so tue, no denominationallism ever existed and, inside each family, there are divisions and different ways.

 

[optimistic]

I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one. Father sent his Son...the Son gave us the helper..the Holy Spirit

 

[RickyZ]

I know we got off the Trinity part of the debate, a little bit, but debating the Trinity led to what is genuine Saving Faith.

Yeah, I'm a long time derailer But not the first.

What Paul was reiterating in the verses above was, Preaching the Word of GOD, will never come back VOID as the Bible says. In other words, He blesses HIS WORD being taught, even if the Pastor is unsaved. He is NOT honoring that Pastor, but the hearer who responds to HIS WORD.

I'm with you on that

BUT WE WERE ALSO DEBATING if Salvation is by Grace through Faith ALONE,
or by Grace through Faith, PLUS WORKS.

True too, it was that post's mention of intention that caught my eye. And my response was related more to the post than the thread. Again, long time derailer . Altho I prefer the word tangent... Sorry!


A side line debate that spun off that, is "Are all perceived good works rewarded"
or only those done out of (agapaô) LOVE for Him.

All good works done out of love for Him will be rewarded. But that's just half of that story. Bad works done out of any motive will be burned away, and one will suffer loss for them.

Ok, so... what were we talking about?

 

[VCO]

Should we follow Christ, or follow Christ’s Father or follow a triune God?


Just a tiny thing, regarding that only point, here I have a clue I kept for me:

Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Is there any another way to follow The father than following Jesus´s?

Mar 9:7 And a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is my beloved Son; listen to him."

Mat 17:5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him."

You tell me, after you read these verses.

Acts 4:10-12 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] He is "'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone'.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

John 14:6 (ESV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 1:12-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord { which means MASTER }, continue to live in him,

Revelation 3:19-20 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door {to his heart}, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

On numerous occasions I have been accused of being TOO narrow minded in my beliefs. Perhaps that is because I follow, Love, and submit to the most narrow man that ever lived, Jesus Christ.

 

[RedTent]

You tell me, after you read these verses.

On numerous occasions I have been accused of being TOO narrow minded in my beliefs. Perhaps that is because I follow, Love, and submit to the most narrow man that ever lived, Jesus Christ.

There is no question of who Christ is, or that we are to submit to Christ. It is through Christ's blood we are saved. No one is arguing about that.

The question is where does the Father fit into this? How about the Torah that gives the principles of the Father, the Holy Spirit and Christ? Are the Father and Son one or is there conflict there?

Paul told the Jews accusing him that he was Torah observant and also that we are to do as he did.

Act 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans. Father and the Son one or is there conflict in these? Paul said he was Torah observant, and Paul said to follow him.

Paul told the Roman governor that he was Torah observant, also:

Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Where does this fit in our beliefs?