Should we pray to Mary as the Mother of God?

[StoneThrower]

Here's a short vid for those of you who have time on my conclusion on if we should pray to Mary as co-mediator or not.

[video=youtube;nVdVQ0fUAfc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVdVQ0fUAfc[/video]

No praying to a dead corpse is idolitry. 1st Timothy 2:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

The church of Rome didnt even buy in offically on that untill the 1800's

 

[StoneThrower]

They believe Mary was born without sin (immaculata conception).
We believe she was born with sin (like any other human being), but has been sanctified by God's grace (God's uncreated energies, in Eastern Orthodox Church).

That was another false dogma that wasn’t created till around 1854 Pope Pious IX
Want more?
Inability of the Pope Vatican Council late 1860"s
Tradition claimed as equal authority with the Bible 1545 Council of Trent
Purgatory elevated from doctrine to dogma council of Florence 1438
Trans substation and confessing to a priest Pope innocent the iii 1215
Indulgences, when a coin in the coffers, rings a soul from purgatory springs1090
Celibacy 1079
Attendance of Mass mandatory 1000
Baptism regenerates the soul 431
Like most cults they just make it up as they go.

 

[santuzza]

We believe she was born with sin (like any other human being), but has been sanctified by God's grace (God's uncreated energies, in Eastern Orthodox Church).

Simona25, all who have been saved become sanctified in heaven, and those of us not yet in heaven are currently being sanctified here on earth. Mary is NOT exceptional in this. And all who have been saved are saints as well. Again, Mary is NOT exceptional in this.

In short, Mary has no more power, is no more sanctified, is no more omniscient than any other saved individual. Although she was blessed by God, she was a mere human and she did not receive "extra-human" powers when she got to heaven. There is absolutely no biblical evidence to support that kind of thought.

 

[Simona25]

Although I already know the answer to this, I would like to see the scripture concerning it as well.

These magical rosary beads, this praying to Mary, doing hail-mary's, etc... all of it is idolatry plain and simple. As many have said, Jesus Christ IS the mediator. It spelled out plain as day throughout the Bible. I can't believe it's still being discussed to this day, being there is no scriptural support for Mary being anything other than than Jesus' earthly mother.

I don't know what to say about the rosary and "hail-Mary", because I am not a catholic, but an eastern orthodox christian.
Jesus Christ is the only mediator between man and God because He is both man and God. He is the Savior of the world.
The intercessions of Saint Mary and of the saints are a reflection of 1 Timothy 2:1.
We do not ask Theotokos to save us, that, only Christ can do.

Also, for us, orthodox christians, Mary is not just the earthly mother of Jesus; she is the first human being that achieved complete theosis (sanctification) because she bore the unlimited in herself. For us, salvation is not escaping hell, but uniting with God (through His grace), growing in the likeness of God and progressing infinitely in His love.

 

[4enlightment]

None of this proves anything as far as praying to Mary, deceased saints, or worshiping Mary.... I agree with every verse you posted.

1 Corinthians 9:25
Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.

2 Timothy 2:5
Similarly, anyone who competes as an athlete does not receive the victor’s crown except by competing according to the rules.

2 Timothy 4:8
Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Hebrews 2:7
You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor

James 1:12
Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

Revelation 2:10
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.







25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

John 9:22
His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue.

Matthew 27:61
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb.

Acts 1:14
They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

Romans 16:6
Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you.

12 Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord.

Luke 1:28
The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

Luke 1:41
When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 16:20
All the brothers and sisters here send you greetings. Greet one another with a holy kiss.

Matthew 26:49
Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him.

God want us to away remember Mary to make her known as well as the others woman and what part they had played. That is the way to keep the spirit that possessed these women alive.

Luke 23:42
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

Genesis 8:1
But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded.

Matthew 26:13 Truly I tell you, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.”

Exodus 32:32
But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”

Philippians 4:3
Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.

 

[ForthAngel]

God want us to away remember Mary to make her known as well as the others woman and what part they had played. That is the way to keep the spirit that possessed these women alive.

Respect, sure. But none of these verses prove that any of these people, Mary included, should be worshiped or prayed to. It's simply not there. Jesus instructed us how to pray. That is how we should pray. God doesn't need to keep "the spirit that possessed these women" alive. His Holy Spirit will suffice with or without their example. I get what you mean without nitpicking at your choice of words though, as far as them being good examples to live by, and on that I can agree. It's a farcry to say that because of the example they set, they should be worshiped or prayed to.

 

[Simona25]

Respect, sure. But none of these verses prove that any of these people, Mary included, should be worshiped or prayed to. It's simply not there. Jesus instructed us how to pray. That is how we should pray. God doesn't need to keep "the spirit that possessed these women" alive. His Holy Spirit will suffice with or without their example. I get what you mean without nitpicking at your choice of words though, as far as them being good examples to live by, and on that I can agree. It's a farcry to say that because of the example they set, they should be worshiped or prayed to.

We, orthodox christians, do not worship Mary or the saints. We only worship the triune God.
How does your church manifest the respect to St. Mary? She prophesied that all generations will call her blessed.

 

[ForthAngel]

We, orthodox christians, do not worship Mary or the saints. We only worship the triune God.
How does your church manifest the respect to St. Mary? She prophesied that all generations will call her blessed.

And so she is. She gave birth to the Son of God. I'm not disputing her status as a human being, I am disputing her status as being worshiped and prayed to as a god, which is what this thread is about. I think me and you agree on that for the most part.

 

[Simona25]

And so she is. She gave birth to the Son of God. I'm not disputing her status as a human being, I am disputing her status as being worshiped and prayed to as a god, which is what this thread is about. I think me and you agree on that for the most part.

So, how does your church show its respect to St. Mary?

 

[ForthAngel]

So, how does your church show its respect to St. Mary?

my church goes through the bible a passage at a time each week. We don't construct images of marry and hang them on the walls, or bow to them, or say prayers to her... and i will say it even now, Mary was blessed as a human being to be who she was chosen to be. it was a great honor, more so than any other human could have hoped to be blessed in that regard. she is not a god.

we are not commanded by God to do anything regarding Mary. she herself said she would be called blessed, and so she still is. God never commanded us to worship her, make images of her, or anything else like that. she is respected by every Christian, and every Christian will say she is blessed to be who she was. I am sure of that.

but not every Christian takes it as far as creating images of her. those images are forbidden. worship of Mary is forbidden. deification of Mary to the point she is exalted to godhood is forbidden. we are taught how to pray by the Son of God himself. Why would we do any different?

why shift the object of our worship from him to someone else? it's forbidden.

 

[2Thewaters]

Mary is dead.
In the grave
at the resurection she will be raised from the grave along with all other saints
no sense praying to a dead person

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:



1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.



MAry doctrine is not Biblical

we only pray to GOD

We are not to pray to any man or woman

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God:



Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.



we are never to worship a man or woman ever
that is blasphemy

 

[Simona25]

my church goes through the bible a passage at a time each week. We don't construct images of marry and hang them on the walls, or bow to them, or say prayers to her... and i will say it even now, Mary was blessed as a human being to be who she was chosen to be. it was a great honor, more so than any other human could have hoped to be blessed in that regard. she is not a god.

we are not commanded by God to do anything regarding Mary. she herself said she would be called blessed, and so she still is. God never commanded us to worship her, make images of her, or anything else like that. she is respected by every Christian, and every Christian will say she is blessed to be who she was. I am sure of that.

but not every Christian takes it as far as creating images of her. those images are forbidden. worship of Mary is forbidden. deification of Mary to the point she is exalted to godhood is forbidden. we are taught how to pray by the Son of God himself. Why would we do any different?

why shift the object of our worship from him to someone else? it's forbidden.

Where did I say that she was a god? Where did I say that I worship her?
You have avoided to answer my question. Instead, you launched yourself in assuming that we worship her and started to debate that.
Just admit that you do not call her blessed and you do not see the relevance that she has in the Church (body of Christ).

Off-topic: do you worship Jesus Christ?

 

[Drett]

So, how does your church show its respect to St. Mary?

How does your church give respect to Pope Francis. Praying in front of him or a statue ?

 

[Simona25]

How does your church give respect to Pope Francis. Praying in front of him or a statue ?

We don't honor those that are outside of the Church.

 

[Atwood]

You are now talking about idolatry.

However, just calling Mary the mother of God is not idolatry if by that all you mean that that she is the mother of the human nature of the Lord Jesus only, while He is one person with two natures. I think that technically RCC theologians will admit that she is not the mother of the YHWH nature of Christ. Still the phrase mother of God is dangerous.

Surely many RCCists treat her as if she were God, which is an abominable idolatry.

Certainly it is hard to imagine God giving any human being (other than the Lord Jesus) such a high honor as He gave to Mary in choosing to become a man and to have her for a mother as a man. But to worship her, would bring her displeasure -- I guess since she is free from sorrow and annoyance now in Heaven, as are all Christians, she must not know that she is being worshipped on earth.

I think that there may be some demon who acts as the Mary to whom RCCists pray. Behind idols are demons or evil spirits.

 

[Atwood]

You can ask anyone to pray for you like how they had asked others in the scriptures to blessed them. But the one that you have asked them to pray for you should have a sincere heart that truly care for you and whom God will listen to like how he has listened to Ishmael cries.

Job 16:17
yet my hands have been free of violence and my prayer is pure.
Job 42:8
So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.”

Trying to make praying to saints in Heaven analogous to asking humans on earth to pray for you is bogus.
1) Only God is omniscient and omnipresent.
2) The saints in Heaven are not omnipresent. How can they hear you pray? How can they hear 1000's of prayers uttered to them at the same time?
3) The intercessor in Heaven is the Lord Jesus. He can hear all prayers being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.
4) RCCist do no limit themselves to asking a saint in Heaven to pray for them to the Father or to Christ. RCCists treat the saint like he/she was God.
5) There are no prayers to dead saints in the NT.

 

[Atwood]

at the beginning of the 14th century, the Virgin appeared one day to a humble cowboy named Gil Cordero who was searching for a missing animal in the mountains.[SUP][1][/SUP] Cordero claimed that the Virgin Mary had appeared to him and ordered him to ask priests to dig at the site of the apparition. Excavating priests rediscovered the hidden statue and built a small shrine around it which evolved into the great Guadalupe monastery.

Around the beginning of the 16th century BC, a golden calf appeared one day to a Hebrew idiot named Aaron who said he put gold in the fire and the calf came out, while Moses was away in the mountain. Aaron claimed that the calf had appeared to him though he actually made it.

 

[Atwood]

We, orthodox christians, do not worship Mary or the saints. We only worship the triune God.
How does your church manifest the respect to St. Mary? She prophesied that all generations will call her blessed.

What about those "divine energies." Is that a made up idol?

 

[Atwood]

Where did I say that she was a god? Where did I say that I worship her?
You have avoided to answer my question. Instead, you launched yourself in assuming that we worship her and started to debate that.
Just admit that you do not call her blessed and you do not see the relevance that she has in the Church (body of Christ).

Off-topic: do you worship Jesus Christ?

Of course Mary was blessed, and I call her blessed (not bless-ed). But we don't address blessings TO her; quite a different matter.

 

[Simona25]

What about those "divine energies." Is that a made up idol?

They are the works of God in this world. It's how God communicates Himself to us.