Sin or law. Which one was crucified?

[just-me]

Now the new covenant, and scripture showing the law is passed away.

Hebrews 8:6-13King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Now this scripture is very good. But one needs to understand what the writer of Hebrews is actually addressing. The rhetorical question - is this scripture defining the covenant that contains the law of God, or is this the covenant that contains the Levitical priesthood and the physical temple of physical animal sacrifice? I give you 2 sections of scripture that surround these verse you quoted. First Leviticus 9:1-5.

1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

So it is clear that the writer of Hebrews is referring to the physical temple and the physical ordnances that were a shadow of things to come, comparing a better and New Covenant with the more inferior Old Covenant concerning the priesthood and the temple, one being old and the other replacing the old with the new. There is one change to the law, which is the changing of the priesthood to the tribe of Judah after the order of Melchizedek.

The next verse following Hebrews 8:13 is Hebrews 9:1 which completes the definition of what the writer of Hebrews is actually referring, which says; "Then verily the first covenant (also an added word) had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary."

So the covenant containing the Levitical priesthood and physical sanctuary is "Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

The word "covenant" which I highlighted in italics and colored red in 2 verses that you quote (verses 7 and 13) are added words from the Greek to the English translation. Verse 9 "covenant" is defining the governorship of the old covenant via the Levitical priesthood. Now the "Governorship" of the New Covenant Priesthood is Christ, after the order of Melchizedek.

The "Head of government" has changed, exacting the original law of God in it's true and perfect form.

Jesus said; "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

The commandments that Jesus said for us to obey, by showing our love for Him, are the same as those written in the Old Covenant, for Jesus created all of them according to Colossians 1:17. Jesus completely fulfilled the psychical priesthood of Aaron/Levi and converted it to its original form and spiritual intent.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." (Matthew 23:23)

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)

Melchizedek means "Prince of Peace."
Jerusalem means "Place of Peace."

 

[just-me]

Now this scripture is very good. But one needs to understand what the writer of Hebrews is actually addressing. The rhetorical question - is this scripture defining the covenant that contains the law of God, or is this the covenant that contains the Levitical priesthood and the physical temple of physical animal sacrifice? I give you 2 sections of scripture that surround these verse you quoted. First Leviticus 9:1-5.

Correction in the above post. This should read First Leviticus 8:1-5.
1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

 

[shotgunner]

I agree with you on this.

One more question, in respect to what you have said that the law was crucified with Christ. I take that to mean the law has been rendered as dead, has been made void and abolished. As you know, I have presented scripture to refute that, because I believe it as not correct doctrine. Here is my question then.

Now in your opinion (as to what I just explained above), is it heresy to worship God by respecting and believing all things that are written in the law given to Israel through Moses? ........................ Heresy meaning a belief contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine.

I don't like the word heresy because it refers to something being contrary to what is considered sound doctrine by religious leaders. The problem with that is what is considered sound doctrine constantly changes. What was once considered heresy may be considered sound doctrine today, even depending on who you ask. All that really matters is what God thinks. Thus man will always try to establish what he thinks are proper ways to serve God and call heresy on those who don't conform to his practices.

Now concerning the law. What good is it? It certainly cannot give life or holiness or sanctification, in and of itself. It's only purpose was to show man the sinfulness of themselves. Yes, it was just and good and holy, but only in the purpose whereunto it was given, namely to show men their need for a savior. The law was to show men that they could not meet the just requirements of a holy God, and so they would need a perfect sacrifice for their sins.

Should we observe the law as Christians? The answer is a resounding no! By trying to keep the law, a man will look to his own deeds to justify himself and it cannot be done, nor was it ever intended as such. That however does not mean that a Christian lives lawlessly. God says in Hebrews 10:16 that he will put his laws into our hearts and write them in our minds. We do not need the observance of the law because the Holy Spirit leads and guides us into all truth. I do not need the law to tell me not to steal, kill, bear false witness, lie, and so forth because the Holy Spirit will guide me to these truths.

What we need to teach is more reliance on the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit, and thus teach man to look unto God for all things. Instead we teach law and thus we have man look to himself to judge the stature his own obedience. Man however always has a tendency to overlook his indiscretions and magnify his accomplishments because he is puffed up with pride, and especially so in a fallen state. This is the very picture of the Pharisee that Jesus rebuked so vehemently, calling them beautiful on the outside by their observance of law, but rotten inside because that obedience couldn't save them. Yet they were so puffed up with pride that they couldn't see their own sin.

 

[wattie]

I wonder if when people talk about the Law.. they actually mean the New Testament system of service.. or the 10 commandments.. rather than the Levitical Law and Law of Moses.

Course... even it they do mean the 10 commandments and/or the NT system of service... obeying these as systems never got anyone eternally saved.

 

[just-me]

Should we observe the law as Christians? The answer is a resounding no! By trying to keep the law, a man will look to his own deeds to justify himself and it cannot be done, nor was it ever intended as such. That however does not mean that a Christian lives lawlessly. God says in Hebrews 10:16 that he will put his laws into our hearts and write them in our minds. We do not need the observance of the law because the Holy Spirit leads and guides us into all truth. I do not need the law to tell me not to steal, kill, bear false witness, lie, and so forth because the Holy Spirit will guide me to these truths.

I'll leave you with this as both of us desire to adhere to Paul's personal life and ministry by "rightly dividing the truth" as he instructed Timothy.

Acts 24:10-21
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Whereupon certain Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with multitude, nor with tumult.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Who ought to have been here before thee, and object, if they had ought against me.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Or else let these same here say, if they have found any evil doing in me, while I stood before the council,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.

What good is the law to Christians you ask? Here's how Paul used it for others and for himself.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Ministering to the lost, according to their lifestyle, is the work that the church is commissioned to perform. If there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek/Gentile, how are we supposed to witness to those who are under the law if we ourselves don't know the law. How do we know we are following the right Spirit without the Word of God to confirm the motivation? Saying the law of God no longer exists for the believer is discrediting God's holy word by saying some of it has been made void. God's name is defined by the law and the prophets and we are instructed not to take His name in vain.

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (Romans 2:12)

Paul speaks of himself, in his present state, as a man who has been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13)

The law does more than lead us to Christ. If it led us to Christ what different tool (other than God's) will we use to minister to the lost if the law is no longer any good in this New Covenant?

Someday we will be judged according to our works. Salvation is not of the law, but it leads us in the right direction. Salvation is not a thing of the past, it's a process of being conformed into the image of Christ, and having His mind. Salvation is not as if were a magic wand that goes "twang" and then it's all over from that point on.

"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." (Romans 14:11)

 

[just-me]

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (II Peter 3:15-16)

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Romans 6:6)

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2:20)

 

[prove-all]

It looks very clear to me. Why do people always want to change the meaning to say there are no longer any rules to follow?

I can't understand it? Do you?

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:
for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God?
whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.​

​

 

[Angela53510]

So what do you do with this verse??

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—" Gal. 3:13

 

[just-me]

So what do you do with this verse??

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—" Gal. 3:13

Deuteronomy 21:22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

I'll explain more in depth later. I just woke up. LOL Paul used this relationship to the law because the believers in Galatia were aware of the unbelieving Pharisee's adamant hatred toward Christ Jesus. Even today many orthodox rabbis call Jesus a bastard.

There are 12 specific curses mentioned in Deuteronomy 27:15-26

We can apply this to the enter law simply because if anyone knowingly or unknowingly sins, but do not seek forgiveness, they are under a curse, and not a blessing.

 

[gb9]

just woke up also. and if you would, Titus 3 sums up our relationship with God through Christ wonderfully, with out saying we are under the law. thoughts?

 

[just-me]

just woke up also. and if you would, Titus 3 sums up our relationship with God through Christ wonderfully, with out saying we are under the law. thoughts?

It's great that you brought to mind this chapter in Titus to all who read this thread!

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Savior actually means “Giver of Life.” The actual root of this is “the Word of Life.”

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Washing and renewing are relative words to kindness and pity in the translation. Both washing and renewing are put into action by God's mercy, indicate a period of time that envelops our time on this earth, from the time we were reborn of the Spirit, up to the time our natural life has ended.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Good works can only be maintained by the observance of God's holy word. Through God's mercy and grace, we have been given God's Word in writing, and by this we have a glimpse of His nature, and can cultivate, and maintain our lives according to His nature by observing this character through His Word.

Adding these above thoughts to the truth of Hebrews 13:8, we are given the ability to comprehend the truth that nothing in God's word has changed with the exception of the Priesthood that governs the unchanging word. We also know that Jesus Christ was the Creator of all things, and He is the complete “Word of God” and not a partial Word.

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.” (Hebrews 13:8)

I'll stop writing at this point so the post doesn't become too long. Obviously there is more to this chapter. Much more.