So faith without works is dead also.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#21
I wanted to add some to your discernment Zone :)


Romans 8:1-14
[SUP]1[/SUP]There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [SUP]2 [/SUP]
[SUP]14[/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
We are given the Holy Spirit to follow, but it is our choice each day whether we will follow that or our worldly self. Having the Holy Spirit within us does not guarantee that we live only a holy life.
 
H

heirofChrist

Guest
#22
faith is not a work! that is heresy. You can make faith a work but it is not meant to be a work. If faith was a work then the entire Bible contradicts itself.. Don't you know works won't save. I believed in God as a child although I wasn't saved. I had to do nothing to place my trust in Him. If I had to work for faith, then i would be able to run around and brag saying "look I did this to get my faith" that's not boasting in Christ that is boasting in what "I" did. don't twist scripture. "Faith=obedience="? no Obedience comes after Faith. True faith will produce obediance.
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#23
Claims faith => No works (fruit) => Still saved. This position is heresy. It is false assurance of salvation a.k.a. OSAS and nothing more than an unsubstantiated theory.

Claims faith => No works (fruit) => Not saved because such dead faith is akin to demonic faith. Such person claims to have faith but is walking in opposition to the God. This is what the bible teaches. James 2:19-20.

Claims faith => Works (fruit) => Saved.
In this case the person can have assurance of salvation as they are in union with Christ, obeying His word, and walking in the Spirit thus bearing fruit. John 15:4, Romans 8:1, 1 John 2:6.

True faith is an active process that is rooted on love and results in fruitfulness, not a passive state of barrenness.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#24
Yes,works without Faith is nothing.
I think I said pleasing works are 'impossible'.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(Heb 11:6)
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#25
So you get saved in your sins, then you obey out of gratitude, which means faith is optional?

We are not trying to earn brownie points from God! Is this what you think faith is?

Again, when you disobey God, you are in rebellion to Him and His commands, yes as I wrote its a choice you have, we obey God because we love Him, and fear Him,not trying to earn brownie points from Him, we serve Him because we love and fear Him, but IF you disboey His commands you loose your salvation,,not brownie points, God is no respecter of persons, His wrath in uopn the children of disobedience!

The soul who sins shall die!

Are you abiding or sinning?
1Jn 3:6 Everyone who abides in Him does not sin. Everyone who sins has not seen Him nor known Him.
The word of God is very clear who the children of God are, and who the children of the devil are, in this verse as well as many others that state what a true follower of Christ does.
They abide in Him.
G3306
μένω
menō
men'-o
A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.
And do not sin! Another words a true convert will first come into the kingdom purged and cleansed that can only come from real repentance and faith, laying aside all filthyness and overflow of wickedness first.
Then if the repentance is real and genuine, the act of willful, predetermined, deliberate sin and rebellion has stopped, ceased, no more, put to death, crucified with Christ, never to be brought out again!
You can argue all day and night about what sin is or isn’t, or that all sin is the same cop out, but the bottom line here is the act where the desires meet the will, and rebellious actions against God come into effect!
The scriptures must harmonize together, and they do when you take the whole council of God, which clearly negates the sin every day in thought, word and deed crowd, who was told they are saved by saying the sinners prayer, and that they will continue to sin as true follower of Christ.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Again the sin dilemma is explained by the word of God, telling you that the ones who are born of God (born again) DO NOT sin willfully against God, for they WILL keep themselves, such as putting on the full armor of God, guarding their heart, filling their mind with the precious truths of God, and avoiding all forms of temptation and evil as commanded.
Now if you consider this being self-righteous, or prideful in any way, then you are receiving this message in your carnal mind that has been clouded by the wolves telling you constantly that sin is inbred into your members, you cannot stop, maybe slow down a bit, but if you could stop fornication, lying, cheating, adulteration, lusting after the things of the world, getting drunk, etc., then you wouldn’t need Jesus!
Again another false straw man excuse for sin, when the word clearly explains those born of God, who came to Him on His terms, DO not sin, and if they choose to do so, then woe to them!
The great mercy of God is there and available to all those who are still in bondage to sin and the lies as I was for most of my adult life and more so when I thought I got saved, but here is the great lie, that satan whisper’s in your ear, telling you, that you can sin (rebel against God) ant not die spiritually!
The great mercy of God also, does not cover the unrepentant sinner, who is struggling with many addictions and sin, He is waiting patiently for now for you to repent, stop sinning, get clear of all wrong doing, then seek His mercy, not think all is well since you said a little prayer, and confessed you are a sinner! God already knows that!
He commands all mankind everywhere to repent, forsake their flesh and worldly passions, and come to Him broken and dead to sin, now alive to Him. Please read Romans Ch. 6, it applies to all professing Christians today; it’s not some foreign provision, but a reality few will adhere to.
Pro 28:13 Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.
So do you know God? Or are you playing games with Him by defending sin and then blaming this sin on a false inbred nature your denomination or bible teacher told you to be true!!
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.

Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Tommy 1-30-13
Did you miss the memo about the new nature given us as believers in Jesus?
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#26
faith is not a work! that is heresy. You can make faith a work but it is not meant to be a work. If faith was a work then the entire Bible contradicts itself.. Don't you know works won't save. I believed in God as a child although I wasn't saved. I had to do nothing to place my trust in Him. If I had to work for faith, then i would be able to run around and brag saying "look I did this to get my faith" that's not boasting in Christ that is boasting in what "I" did. don't twist scripture. "Faith=obedience="? no Obedience comes after Faith. True faith will produce obediance.

Faith is a work and it is not heresy to say so. Faith is the active dynamic of yielding to God, hence it is being a doer of the word. Jesus taught a sharp contrast between those "who do" and those "who do not." It is the doers who will enter the kingdom because they have real faith. Real faith = Doing. That is why James taught that faith without works is dead. James knew that faith was the working dynamic of salvation by which we put to use the leading of God, His grace.

We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH which means through being an ACTIVE DOER, ie.working together with God (@Cor 6:1). If there is no active dynamic of a working faith then there will be no heart purity.

Satan has deceived many people into passively trusting and believing in an abstract provision as assurance for salvation. It is another gospel for there is nothing abstract about salvation, genuine salvation will produce manifest righteousness in the believer and thus a tree is known by its fruit.

Paul called faith a work, are you going to call Paul a heretic too? Or perhaps you'll just ignore him.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2Th_1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Quite a few people "liked your post" demonstrating their ignorance of the scriptures which teach that faith is a work. Read Hebrews 11 and you'll see example after example of a "working faith." All those people were DOERS.
 
H

heirofChrist

Guest
#27
twist not scripture... faith is working if we have it...How do we get it? by hearing the word of God...Nothing of ourselves...that txt in thessalonians is not calling your faith a work...its saying what the faith has produced. "work of faith" not "ceasing working for faith" or "ceasing faith from work"..."ceasing work of faith"
 
X

xXErraticEmilyXx

Guest
#28
We're Christians, not Jews.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#29
We need to participate in Him but God does the work. He gives us the faith to have faith in Him.
 
H

heirofChrist

Guest
#30
So true tintin I'm not saying faith is absolutely not a work at all. Its just not a work of ourselves, we have to do nothing to earn it. No one seeks after God, no not one, therefore when someone pulls the scriptures out and starts trying to seek God that is only because he sought first.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#31
We're Christians, not Jews.
uh ahem, Abraham a true Jew now watch...

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
(Rom 4:1-3)

see justified by faith as well.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#32
Claims faith => No works (fruit) => Still saved. This position is heresy. It is false assurance of salvation a.k.a. OSAS and nothing more than an unsubstantiated theory.

Claims faith => No works (fruit) => Not saved because such dead faith is akin to demonic faith. Such person claims to have faith but is walking in opposition to the God. This is what the bible teaches. James 2:19-20.

Claims faith => Works (fruit) => Saved.
In this case the person can have assurance of salvation as they are in union with Christ, obeying His word, and walking in the Spirit thus bearing fruit. John 15:4, Romans 8:1, 1 John 2:6.

True faith is an active process that is rooted on love and results in fruitfulness, not a passive state of barrenness.
how much good works are necessary before one has assurance? Sorry,my assurance is in Christ Jesus and Him alone.
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#33
how much good works are necessary before one has assurance? Sorry,my assurance is in Christ Jesus and Him alone.
Of course our assurance is in Christ but many want assurance of their salvation and eternal life while going against His commands. They profess to love God but their actions reveal a different story (they crucify Jesus afresh, spit on His face by their actions). That is not love. James meant that our actions as believers has to match our faith, otherwise it is just mere belief as that of demons. One cannot be walking in the light of God and darkness at the same time. God's call to holiness is not a mere suggestion; it is a command and requirement to see Him (Matt 5:8, Heb 12:14, 1 Peter 1:15-17) and He has graciously provided everything we need to live holy.

Romans 8:5-16
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
One cannot be led by the Spirit and at the same time be in hostility to His word neither c
an one walk in the broad and narrow way at the same time.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. This comfort is for believers abiding in Christ. The bible does not give comfort to believers living in sin.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
The Spirit of God continually testifies within the spirit of His obedient children that they are indeed saved.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Many read this passage and stop here ignoring verse 10. The mark of genuine regeneration is a transformed life, mind, soul, and will by the power of the Holy Spirit, not jumping into worldliness once in a while.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Galatians 5:18-25
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
False grace preachers say that believers can hold on to their sins and still be assured of their salvation and inherit the kingdom of God. They insinuate that even if they deny God and become a devil worshipper and remain faithless, He remains faithful and will drag them to heaven as they went to the altar to say the sinner's prayer some years back. What nonsense! They obviously don't believe an iota of the scripture. Do not allow Satan to deceive you, just as he did to Eve, with lies that you can live like him and still be assured of your salvation. Many are on the road to hell because of this demonic doctrine.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Our assurance is in Christ if we have crucified our flesh by His power in us.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Philippians 1:11- Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God. One cannot be filled with the fruits of righteousness and unrighteousness at the same time.

Titus 3:8- This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Hebrews 5:9- And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

1 John 2:4-6
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
This is true assurance of salvation. You know you are in Christ if you are walking in obedience to Him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Those who disobey God and claim to have faith are only deceiving themselves. Remember that Abraham's faith was made complete by his obedience to God.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#34
how much good works are necessary before one has assurance? Sorry,my assurance is in Christ Jesus and Him alone.
I'm confident that Star will agree with me in saying that, while works in and of themselves can not save, those who are truly Christ's possession will possess good works because abiding in Christ will always result in obedience to Christ.

Galatians 5:22
"Walk in the Spirit (of Christ) and you need not fulfill the lusts of the flesh."

Ephesians 4:24 "Put on the new nature (the regenerate self) created in God’s image, [Godlike] in true righteousness and holiness."

Romans 13:14 "Clothe yourself with the Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah), and make no provision for [indulging] the flesh [put a stop to thinking about the evil cravings of your physical nature] to [gratify its] desires (lusts)."
 
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
17
0
#35
The only works God requires are done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation, given by Christ dying on the cross for worthless sinners
Any works done with the view they will better enable a person to enter Heaven, or works done to impress man/boast in the flesh are dead works that God will not accept
 
Last edited:

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#36
The only works God requires are done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation, given by Christ dying on the cross for worthless sinners
Any works done with the view they will better enable a person to enter Heaven, or works done to impress man/boast in the flesh are dead works that God will not accept
'good works' are done by the new man.
you're either born again with new desires or you're not.
ppl who continually talk about their 'good works' already have their reward.

it's bait n switch for semi-pelagianism
 
Jan 26, 2009
639
22
18
37
#37
'good works' are done by the new man.
you're either born again with new desires or you're not.
ppl who continually talk about their 'good works' already have their reward.

it's bait n switch for semi-pelagianism
Very true zone.
God bless
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#38
I'm confident that Star will agree with me in saying that, while works in and of themselves can not save, those who are truly Christ's possession will possess good works because abiding in Christ will always result in obedience to Christ.

Galatians 5:22
"Walk in the Spirit (of Christ) and you need not fulfill the lusts of the flesh."

Ephesians 4:24 "Put on the new nature (the regenerate self) created in God’s image, [Godlike] in true righteousness and holiness."

Romans 13:14 "Clothe yourself with the Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah), and make no provision for [indulging] the flesh [put a stop to thinking about the evil cravings of your physical nature] to [gratify its] desires (lusts)."
And I wholeheartedly agree with you!

It’s all about surrendering our lives to God. Our faith in God becomes meaningful when obedience follows otherwise it is a dead faith as James rightly stated. Paul also said we are servants of whom we obey.

James had Jesus' saying in mind: Matt 7:21- Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Luke 11:28- But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

James 2:17-25
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

These great men and women of faith were admired because their faith in God was accompanied by obedience.
Hebrews 11:1-33
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed;and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Can you firmly declare that you'd rather deny yourself and follow Jesus than enjoy the pleasures of sin for a while and risk losing your soul in hell? (Matthew 16:26)
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
 
T

Tan

Guest
#39
So true tintin I'm not saying faith is absolutely not a work at all. Its just not a work of ourselves, we have to do nothing to earn it. No one seeks after God, no not one, therefore when someone pulls the scriptures out and starts trying to seek God that is only because he sought first.

Paul said in (Gal. 6:3-5, 7) (v.3) For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. (v.4) But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.


The book says let every man prove his own work, and if your work is good then you will rejoice in it. (v.5) For every man shall bear his own burden. That’s right; every man must bear his own burden. You mean you thought that all you had to do was confess the name of Jesus and that was it? Brothers and sisters you must work to get salvation. (v.7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. God is not to be played with. Whatsoever you plant, that’s what you are going to reap. Be it good works unto eternal life, or evil works unto eternal damnation. The choice is yours, and your works belong to you.
 
Last edited:
C

cfultz3

Guest
#40
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

What are we to do? Believe.
We perform the act of 'to believe' and we therefore are doing God's work.
If we do not perform the act of 'to believe', then we are not doing God's work.
So, if faith is not a work on our part, then we have a God who is selective on whom shall have faith.

WHAT SHALL WE DO