Sola Scripture -V- Traditions

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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#21
Fair enough EG. No, I have no desire to open up another thread, as this issue has been debated to the nth degree already. I am aware that to preach against tradition, is like climbing Mt. Everest in the winter. Jesus knew this when he went against the traditions of his time with little success in changing the minds of the Jewish leaders.

I just used it as an example to point out the problems that might occur when depending on someone else to interpret the bible for us.
Agreed. Like I have said many times. Jesus would have been considered a protestant. as he protested the jewish tradition, history and interpretation of scripture. which is amazing. because some churches use the same excuses the jews used to prove they are right. We do not learn from past mistakes. which is sad.
 
E

ezekialswheel

Guest
#22
whats funny is its almost impossible not to reply.Lol. Yes good example. water baptism. A really good example. However suffice it to say Im in complete disagreement with you on this subject. I never heard of who was it? Hulrich Zulwigi? W/e he doesnt matter and niether does Heraneus or anybody else. What does matter is what the bible says.
Ill take scripture against every preacher on earth! I believe that there is a couplwesmall things missing. Its my understanding that we are to, "compare scripture with scripture." YES or no? You need scripture reference for this? This is one way we discover truth. The main way. Spirits are not to be trusted! The devil is a LYING spirit. yes? He comes disguised as an angel of light yes? Ill take scripture everytime. THEE HOLY SPIRIT WROTE IT.
Here is something.
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Mathew 3:11
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1Peter 3:21
This is great because maybe you can explain how there is NOT a baptism of the Holy Spirit when its stated in plain english right here in front of your eyes? Furthermore Paul SPECIFICALLY states here also that water baptism is a SYMBOL. Its as clear as daylight and as plain as the nose on my face.
I say this is great because this is wherein all this stuff starts. You CLAIM solo scriptoris and yet you talk about Heinrich Zigiliwigi in the same breath and when the scripture is staring you in the face you say what may I ask?
What do these scriptures say to you? I want to know. ty
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#23
See why I just bring the beverages and snacks? By the time i read these pieces..too tired to write
plus i could never type that much for free :)
lol I decide to take a morning at the beach with the kids and come back with novels of forum threads to read lol :) I think I'll just give the dog a bath and have a picnic with you. want me to bring the watermelon and banana pudding?



LOL :)

the Bible is God's love letter and instructions to us, His children

but I am coming to realize that I would rather read His words and spend time with Him in prayer

then read others opinion of Him and His words ;)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#24
lol I decide to take a morning at the beach with the kids and come back with novels of forum threads to read lol :) I think I'll just give the dog a bath and have a picnic with you. want me to bring the watermelon and banana pudding?



LOL :)

the Bible is God's love letter and instructions to us, His children

but I am coming to realize that I would rather read His words and spend time with Him in prayer

then read others opinion of Him and His words ;)
ok, Ya'll are making me hungry. and it will be a few hours before I can think of eating :(
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#25
whats funny is its almost impossible not to reply.Lol. Yes good example. water baptism. A really good example. However suffice it to say Im in complete disagreement with you on this subject. I never heard of who was it? Hulrich Zulwigi? W/e he doesnt matter and niether does Heraneus or anybody else. What does matter is what the bible says.
Ill take scripture against every preacher on earth! I believe that there is a couplwesmall things missing. Its my understanding that we are to, "compare scripture with scripture." YES or no? You need scripture reference for this? This is one way we discover truth. The main way. Spirits are not to be trusted! The devil is a LYING spirit. yes? He comes disguised as an angel of light yes? Ill take scripture everytime. THEE HOLY SPIRIT WROTE IT.
Here is something.
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Mathew 3:11
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1Peter 3:21
This is great because maybe you can explain how there is NOT a baptism of the Holy Spirit when its stated in plain english right here in front of your eyes? Furthermore Paul SPECIFICALLY states here also that water baptism is a SYMBOL. Its as clear as daylight and as plain as the nose on my face.
I say this is great because this is wherein all this stuff starts. You CLAIM solo scriptoris and yet you talk about Heinrich Zigiliwigi in the same breath and when the scripture is staring you in the face you say what may I ask?
What do these scriptures say to you? I want to know. ty
For most of us, Holy Spirit speaks to us continually, but we often have trouble hearing Him. This is because of the cares of the world, or the fact that our consciences are hardened by sins that all of us commit, or pride, and perhaps even arrogance, get in the way of hearing. For this reason, it is necessary to try and separate ourselves from these distractions, so that we can hear more clearly. This is done through prayer, and thoughtful study of the bible during quiet times. Often, the thoughts that we have are the vain imaginations of our own hearts. Many people mistake these for Holy Spirit.

For the above reasons, it is productive to study the bible in an organized way, using proper exegesis and hermeneutics. It is also helpful if we can study the bible with an open mind, setting our preconceived ideas and traditions aside, or at least account for them in our interpretations. Most important, we must be willing to listen and act on those things that Holy Spirit reveals to us through God's word. For those who are steeped in tradition, it is very difficult to change their actions to accomodate a new understanding of scripture. For them, it is easier to believe, what they need to believe, in order to continue as they always have.

Paul recognized this with the Jews in many of the cities that he visited. And so, after elucidating the Gospel to them, he left them to their own devices, and went on to more fertile fields. I intend to follow Paul's example.

God bless
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#26
Agreed. Like I have said many times. Jesus would have been considered a protestant. as he protested the jewish tradition, history and interpretation of scripture. which is amazing. because some churches use the same excuses the jews used to prove they are right. We do not learn from past mistakes. which is sad.
If Jesus must be considered to be a Protestant, then Jesus must have lived in England in the 1200s with John Wycliffe, and not in Israel in the First Century AD. Jesus must have been either an Englishman, a German, or a Scotsman, or perhaps a French Calvinist. He would not have been a Jew. Who will protest against the Protestants? If Jesus is a protestor, He would have us protest against 800 years of uncontested Protestant traditions, if John Wycliffe in the 13th century is considered to be the first Protestant.
It all comes down to Filioque: the popes of Rome said "And the Son", and passed down their Augustinian error to the Protestants, as most of the Protestants also say "And the Son".
We must be eternally grateful to Jesus Christ that He died to shed His blood for the remission (forgiveness) of our sins, and rose from the dead on the third day, according to the scriptures, for our justification. Grateful to Christ, not to Wycliffe, Cranmer, Luther, Calvin, Arminius, Wesley, and the Protestant Reformation. We don't need Protestant traditions of men to correctly understand and live by the Bible.

 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#27
If Jesus must be considered to be a Protestant, then Jesus must have lived in England in the 1200s with John Wycliffe, and not in Israel in the First Century AD. Jesus must have been either an Englishman, a German, or a Scotsman, or perhaps a French Calvinist. He would not have been a Jew. Who will protest against the Protestants? If Jesus is a protestor, He would have us protest against 800 years of uncontested Protestant traditions, if John Wycliffe in the 13th century is considered to be the first Protestant.
It all comes down to Filioque: the popes of Rome said "And the Son", and passed down their Augustinian error to the Protestants, as most of the Protestants also say "And the Son".
We must be eternally grateful to Jesus Christ that He died to shed His blood for the remission (forgiveness) of our sins, and rose from the dead on the third day, according to the scriptures, for our justification. Grateful to Christ, not to Wycliffe, Cranmer, Luther, Calvin, Arminius, Wesley, and the Protestant Reformation. We don't need Protestant traditions of men to correctly understand and live by the Bible.

LMAO Scott. Your reasoning amazes me. So you do not believe Jesus would have been considered a protestant by the jews? Why don't you read what is posted. So your responses will at least come close to refering to what is said. and you will not go off on so many tangents which have NOTHING to do with what was being said!
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#28
For most of us, Holy Spirit speaks to us continually, but we often have trouble hearing Him. This is because of the cares of the world, or the fact that our consciences are hardened by sins that all of us commit, or pride, and perhaps even arrogance, get in the way of hearing. For this reason, it is necessary to try and separate ourselves from these distractions, so that we can hear more clearly. This is done through prayer, and thoughtful study of the bible during quiet times. Often, the thoughts that we have are the vain imaginations of our own hearts. Many people mistake these for Holy Spirit.

For the above reasons, it is productive to study the bible in an organized way, using proper exegesis and hermeneutics. It is also helpful if we can study the bible with an open mind, setting our preconceived ideas and traditions aside, or at least account for them in our interpretations. Most important, we must be willing to listen and act on those things that Holy Spirit reveals to us through God's word. For those who are steeped in tradition, it is very difficult to change their actions to accomodate a new understanding of scripture. For them, it is easier to believe, what they need to believe, in order to continue as they always have.

Paul recognized this with the Jews in many of the cities that he visited. And so, after elucidating the Gospel to them, he left them to their own devices, and went on to more fertile fields. I intend to follow Paul's example.

God bless
SuperDave!
good post.
are you enjoying your church?
love zone.
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#29
SuperDave!
good post.
are you enjoying your church?
love zone.
Hey thanks!! Yes I am. I have been doing so much reading, that I haven't had time to come in here much. It never ceases to amaze me, how much there is to learn about God, and how fascinating He is.

I do try to read most of your posts, as they are very informative, and in some cases also entertaining! I do enjoy them! Take care, and keep on spreading the Gospel word!

Love
Superdave
 
E

ezekialswheel

Guest
#30
right, but thats because I tell the truth? I want to know how can "we" stare straight at a scripture claim solo scriptoris and not see the same thing. THAT is what I want to know. Some things is understandable. Hard things. But mostly the scripture is plain. Its not some hard thing. It means what it says and doesnt need some deep theological education to understand it. Righteousness by faith. Is impotant. Its not some doesnt matter thing. Its not a minor principal. Its a Major principal. If we can earn salvation in any way then we dont need Jesus. The doctrine of water baptism as a nessesity for salvation is eroneaous and has a works base, even Calvin or whoever you quoted admits it when he says "YES but its Gods work." Lol, very funny way of denying and admitting without admitting that its the Baptism of the spirit which saves and NOT water baptism. Maybe he should have been a politician instead of a theologian.
I sight this as a good example of the lie that MOST denominations claim solo scriptoris but dont adhere to it in reality. "Our righteousness is like filthy rags to the Lord", that general principal all by its lonesome slams the idea that water baptism has anything to do with salvation whatsoever.
The POINT is that there ARE some preachers and teachers, and denominations that teach this doctrine. How is that possible in the face of the evidence of scripture is what I want to know. Its not just this one doctrine Im concerned with.
There are many doctrines out here in mainstream Christianity that are just plain out NOT biblical. I want to know HOW can this be when MOST every denomination I know of all claim this solo scriptoris thing. its hypocritical mumbo jumbo.
Heres a question for you or anybody who reads the bible. What day did Christ raise from the grave? the answer is in 3 of the 4 gospels. Ill bet money that no one out here can see it. Ill bet for every answer that comes in they will all be different. HOW on earth can this be when you (people] CLAIM solo scriptoris? It CANT be thats how.
This is important because if we are not teaching the bible then the chances are 99% that we are teaching lies. Doesnt that scare anyone or do we just say Oh Jesus covers my sins so Im just ok? I wonder.
I only want to know what is going on in the minds of these people who Claim Christ but deny scripture. How can this be? Jesus IS the word. 1John.
Anyhow. Ignore me all you want but it doesnt change the fact that solo scriptoris is a lie. THAT is the whole point.
I NEVER understood how two CHRISTIAN preachers can preach TWO different doctrines and they BOTH claim the bible says so. ITS IMPOSSIBLE!!! One is a liar. thats the way it is. Im sorry but its true.
Most of all I want to know HOW can this be? I mean dont we WANT to know the truth? Are we saying it doesnt matter because we are saved? Baptism or no. It doesnt matter. Rapture or no, it doesnt matter, eat pork all you want it doesnt matter, speak in fake toungues its ok, go to church any old day, its not important. I mean if this is the general attitude of Christians then we are in sorry shape indeed.
It must be true that Jesus is most important and by gosh we are ALL under grace. We all make mistakes but is it ok to just do church any old way we feel like? Teach any old doctrine and its ok? I dont get it. I truly dont.
we see a doctrine we dont agree with and we say,"Oh well Im going the other way anyhow, good luck to ya." Thats how much we care about truth? Scary indeed.
 
A

AtonedFor

Guest
#31
Very nice. Personally, I take no issue with scripture being the standard in which all things should and must be measured. Unfortunately, many who embrace "Sola Scriptura" have also created their own traditions to go with it. A great example of this is the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Nowhere in the scriptures, that is if the scripture is taken at face value in it's intended context, does scripture say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased. Yet you have many who dismiss large portions of scripture as no longer relevant for today because they have embraced their own "extra biblical" (non-biblical) traditions to suit their own religious agendas.
May I agree with this, especially re: the blue.
And since they are on display around the world, should they be considered as from God ... or from Satan?
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#32


This thread is fail.
 
Jul 19, 2011
25
0
0
#33
CONCLUSION

Since the Bible is the final authority, we should look to it as the final authenticating and inerrant source of all spiritual truth. If it says Sacred Tradition is valid, fine. But if it doesn't, then I will trust the Bible alone. Since the Bible does not approve of the Catholic Church's Sacred Tradition, along with its inventions of prayer to Mary, prayer to the saints, indulgences, penance, purgatory, etc., then neither should Christians.
I haven't read the rest of the thread yet and so if someone else already covered this I apologize.

I reject sola scriptura first of all on the basis that it's demonstrably false. It really doesn't matter how well a proposition appears to be supported with Bible verses or logic or reason if you can simply test the idea and the test shows the idea to be false. If it's demonstrably false, it's false and no amount of arguing changes that (if it walks like a duck...).

Sola Scriptura is demonstrably false in that people do not agree on what the bible actually teaches. The argument between the Catholic Church and the protestant denominations is not on how much of the Bible is actually necessary to actually practice (as it is in the different branches of Judaism) but what the Bible itself actually means. And so an outside authority is needed to say, "the bible means this, not that."

I reject it also because it is, by necessity, never actually practiced. Whenever a new protestant church starts, it becomes apparent very early on that everyone being their own authority on how to interpret the Bible is a recipe for chaos and so the 'elders' of the church decide on church doctrine based on their own interpretation. The question is who appointed them to be the interpreters of the Bible? The Catholics claim apostolic succession. That is Jesus appointed the 12 apostles and they in turn appointed the next generation of disciples. The protestants simple appointed themselves.

I also reject it on historical grounds. Jesus started the Church with an oral sacred tradition, not by writing a New Testament (he left that for his followers). And so to discount Oral sacred tradition is to discount the very life and work of Christ himself.

Also, for the first 400 years of Christianity, there was no canonized New Testament. When the New Testament people talk of the scriptures, they are referring to the Old Testament. There was no New Testament to refer to. The New Testament wasn't canonized until the 390's.

Then, for the next 12 hundred years, every copy of the bible had to be hand copied and so numerous copies of it were not available for the masses. Also, most of the population in most places were illiterate. And so the people didn't have access to the Bible and couldn't read it even if they did. And so people learned by being taught by the church.

I also reject it because the logical problem. Sola scriptura assumes a canon to already exist. But a canon necessitates a Church to create the canon, both in writing the books and in editing in deciding which books to keep and which to throw out. No church means no scriptures. And so Sola Scriptura is a logical impossibility.

I reject it because it of the life of Christ himself. (Jesus was born about 1500 years before the invention of the printing press. This fact alone should be enough to discount Sola Scriptura).

During the life of Christ, Judaism was divided into many different factions. The two main factions were the Sadducees and the Pharisees. The Pharisees were the keepers and the teachers of the law. They believed that the Torah was given in two parts, the Oral Torah and the written Torah. They also believed in the entire Old Testament (they were the ones that canonized it just prior to the life of Jesus.

This was the sect that Jesus came out of (Evidenced in the gospels in that Jesus is referred to as rabbi. This is not a generic term for Teacher but a professional title. Also, the Talmud records accounts of Jesus' days as a student rabbi (it paints a less than flattering portrait of Jesus as it was written by people that were not his followers.) Also Jesus referenced books of the OT other than the Torah which the Sadducees didn't believe in.)

The Sadducees were the Priests and they controlled the Temple cult. They were the Sola Scripturists of the day, believing only in the written Torah, not the oral Torah and none of the books of the OT outside of the Torah. They were ones that were responsible for having Christ put to death.

The Pharisee sect has survived to the modern day while the sola scriptura believing Sadducees sect died out with the desctruction of Israel in AD 70. I think it is reasonable to conclude that it is a clue both that Jesus was a pharisee and not a Sadduccee and that the Pharisees survived but the Sadducees didn't. I also think it is a clue that it was the Sola Scripturists of his day that were responsible for his execution.

Finally, I reject Sola Scriptura on the basis that it is not scripturally supported. This do this, all I have to do is produce one verse that demonstrates that sola scriptura is false and that is quite easy because there are numerous verses.

One obvious example is Acts 8:26-31

"26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27 So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[a] eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of the Kandake (which means “queen of the Ethiopians”). This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the Book of Isaiah the prophet. 29 The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.”
30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

"How can I [understand this] unless someone explains it to me?" This shoots the argument for Sola Scriptura right in the head.

But there are more. Another obvious example:

1 Cor 11:2

" 2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you." (emphasis added)

"Hold firmly to the traditions" does not sound like Paul was a Sola Scripturist.
 
S

SantoSubito

Guest
#34
I reject it also because it is, by necessity, never actually practiced. Whenever a new protestant church starts, it becomes apparent very early on that everyone being their own authority on how to interpret the Bible is a recipe for chaos and so the 'elders' of the church decide on church doctrine based on their own interpretation. The question is who appointed them to be the interpreters of the Bible? The Catholics claim apostolic succession. That is Jesus appointed the 12 apostles and they in turn appointed the next generation of disciples. The protestants simple appointed themselves.
That reminds me of a quote from Martin Luther I read somewhere (i'm paraphrasing)

"I have gotten rid of one pope and created thousands!"
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#35
One obvious example is Acts 8:26-31

"26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27 So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[a] eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of the Kandake (which means “queen of the Ethiopians”). This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the Book of Isaiah the prophet. 29 The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.”
30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

"How can I [understand this] unless someone explains it to me?" This shoots the argument for Sola Scriptura right in the head.

But there are more. Another obvious example:

1 Cor 11:2

" 2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you." (emphasis added)

"Hold firmly to the traditions" does not sound like Paul was a Sola Scripturist.
serious?
Philip walked with Jesus.
they had no NT scriptures yet.
what was the eunuch reading? what would Philip have told him that we don't have recorded now?

Paul was an Apostle and a prophet who was taught by Jesus and knew the OT.
they were still having the canon revealed. that's what he's talking about.
wow.
and we're going into scriptura looking for words like traditions to disprove sola scriptura?
WHAT?
 
S

SantoSubito

Guest
#36
serious?
Philip walked with Jesus.
they had no NT scriptures yet.
what was the eunuch reading? what would Philip have told him that we don't have recorded now?

Paul was an Apostle and a prophet who was taught by Jesus and knew the OT.
they were still having the canon revealed. that's what he's talking about.
wow.
and we're going into scriptura looking for words like traditions to disprove sola scriptura?
WHAT?
The biggest point is we do not know if all of what the apostles taught was written down or not. We either have to assume that it all was written down, or that it all wasn't.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#37
and we're going into scriptura looking for words like traditions to disprove sola scriptura?
WHAT?
This tree looks familiar. I think we've gone by here before.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#38
The biggest point is we do not know if all of what the apostles taught was written down or not. We either have to assume that it all was written down, or that it all wasn't.
ummm.. we know it wasn't - john said what we needed was recorded.
if we don't know what they said that wasn't written down, why are we looking anywhere but where it is written down?

John 20
The Purpose of This Book
30Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
 
S

SantoSubito

Guest
#39
ummm.. we know it wasn't - john said what we needed was recorded.
if we don't know what they said that wasn't written down, why are we looking anywhere but where it is written down?

John 20
The Purpose of This Book
30Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
I said all their teachings had not been written down, I did not say it had not been passed on.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#40
I said all their teachings had not been written down, I did not say it had not been passed on.
right. i keep hearing that from scotty too.
i'm okay with my Bible.
love zone.