Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

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Elin

Banned
#21
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#21
Abiding said:
Jesus made it completely clear who will, and who will not,
find the understanding, and get saved.
And it makes more sense to both, justice, and a persons sensitivities.
I dont need a theological theory. Especially one thats already
shut out the possibility of Jesus words being clear and enough.
As If the OldTestament hadnt already said it.
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Now don't go testy on me.

We won't be dealing with theological theory.

We will be dealing with the plain facts of what Scripture presents.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#22
#22
eternally-gratefull said:
He who does not believe is condemned already. So if God willed us to sin, which condemns us, Then does nto will us to believe. It is Gods fault anyone would go to hell. Not the persons.

Your doctrine makes God out to be the guilty one, not holding men accounatable for their free will actions.
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EG to this group Gods wrath is part of His Glory. Therefore the more that are damned the more glory God has.
This is twisted mostly out of Romans 9.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#23
#23
Elin said:
Now don't go testy on me.

We won't be dealing with theological theory.

We will be dealing with the plain facts of what Scripture presents.
Click to expand...
Using YOUR theological theory?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#24
#24
Abiding said:
EG to this group Gods wrath is part of His Glory. Therefore the more that are damned the more glory God has.
This is twisted mostly out of Romans 9.
Click to expand...

Hmm I don't know that God, My God says that he is willing that no one would perish but that ALL would come to eternal life?

God gets glory by proving satan a liar by saving a people who rejected and rebelled against him. Even the Angels of heaven was astonished at this fact. The more that are saved, the more Glory God recieves.

 
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Abiding

Guest
#25
#25
Elin said:
Now don't go testy on me.

We won't be dealing with theological theory.

We will be dealing with the plain facts of what Scripture presents.
Click to expand...
Oppss it showed:p...it twas the universalist statement you made
Ok ill lighten up...what happened was (if you didnt know) i heard what i call a calvinism.
What i mean by that is i listened to every debate off and on the web the last couple weeks
and seen all the "patterns" and all the "arguements" and made the mistake of saying in my heart
"if i hear that lame statement one more time why ill....x8zbx9. but im better now:cool:
 
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Elin

Banned
#26
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#26
zone said:
Elin said:
The Scriptures present God as causing men to do what he wills them to do.
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yes, this i need to be able to see.
without question.



crossnote, grab the chips:)
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The place to start on that is the Scriptures presented there.
You have to decide if that is what they mean.

i don't think you'd be out on a limb unless you had something to offer Elin.
i'm listenin'...and it's my responsiblity to decide. and to see if these things are so.

Diggs, it's starting!
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Very observant, Kath, but it will take us to the heart of election and divine justice in Scripture.

It will not explain election, it will accept it as Biblical fact, which is for the glory of his mercy.

And it will reckon with the ways of divine justice that are not our ways, but are higher than our ways (Isa 55:8-9).

That will be the hard part, reckoning with God's justice as it serves the purpose of his glory.

So don't bail yet.

There are four more parts to this thing, at least three of which should not be problematical.
 
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Elin

Banned
#27
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#27
eternally-gratefull said:
He who does not believe is condemned already. So if God willed us to sin, which condemns us, Then does nto will us to believe. It is Gods fault anyone would go to hell. Not the persons.

Your doctrine makes God out to be the guilty one, not holding men accounatable for their free will actions.
Click to expand...
That will be addressed next.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#28
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#28
i'm not going to bail Elin:)
i don't have to agree.
i know you work hard at your studies, and you're presenting them fairly, so i can check them.
if i don't follow up, and make assumptions about what you wrote, or take my own presuppositions into it, that's my own doing.

i'm okay with it.
looking foward to it.
i'm okay with saying what i object to as well.

oh rly zone - not u?:confused:
 
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Elin

Banned
#30
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#30
Abiding said:
EG to this group Gods wrath is part of His Glory. Therefore the more that are damned the more glory God has.
This is twisted mostly out of Romans 9.
Click to expand...
Is not all of God's character glorious, including the wrath of his justice?

is there anything in God's character that is not glorious?

Can anything in God not be glorious?

Should this not be reckoned with?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#31
#31
Elin said:
Is not all of God's character glorious, including the wrath of his justice?

is there anything in God's character that is not glorious?

Can anything in God not be glorious?

Should this not be reckoned with?
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Yes it should.

but first we have to deal with Satan's Lie vs Gods love. Why would we play into Satan's lie by believing in a doctrine which says God is not a God of love, but only of choice?
 
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Elin

Banned
#32
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#32
Abiding said:
Oppss it showed:p...it twas the universalist statement you made
Ok ill lighten up...what happened was (if you didnt know) i heard what i call a calvinism.
What i mean by that is i listened to every debate off and on the web the last couple weeks
and seen all the "patterns" and all the "arguements" and made the mistake of saying in my heart
"if i hear that lame statement one more time why ill....x8zbx9. but im better now:cool:
Click to expand...
So there's some emotional resistence going here.

Glad to hear you're all better now.

And for the most part, you won't be hearing those kinds of statements in the next four parts.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#34
#34
Elin said:
Is not all of God's character glorious, including the wrath of his justice?

is there anything in God's character that is not glorious?

Can anything in God not be glorious?

Should this not be reckoned with?
Click to expand...
Depends. I think so. The bible says so and shows so. But not in limited atonement.
But thats not biblical or true anyway.
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
#35
#35
God is like our father who raised us, or, mother, or, parents, or, guardians, but with an exclusivity of rule over you your parents just don't havenorcould ever have .

I will explain this 'sovereignty' of rule after church tonight :)

And, of course, believing in God's punishment to them is the moral responsibility not to mention, the moral obligation of man.
Man= believer .

Just so everyone knows, this is not just heaven and hell and eternity spoke of, it is life being lived right now, the conditions of God's will played out so you are not put in 'timeouts.' :)
 
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Elin

Banned
#36
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#36
Abiding said:
Depends. I think so. The bible says so and shows so. But not in limited atonement.
But thats not biblical or true anyway.
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So we are agreed that God's wrath of justice is part of his glory.

So that's off the table.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#37
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#37
Elin said:
So we are agreed that God's wrath of justice is part of his glory.

So that's off the table.
Click to expand...
this is most certainly true.
hmmm....(zone is very very grateful for Jesus at this moment):eek:
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#38
#38
Pretty good thread.

 
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