Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[Elin]

II. Free Will:

In the Biblical sense of free will, the sovereignty of God over the wills of men is not an impediment to Biblical free will.

Unregenerate man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34; Ro 3:19; Gal 3:22). Slaves aren't free.
But slaves can still make some voluntary choices without external constraints,
slaves can still choose voluntarily to do some of the things they desire.
However, their choices are limited by their condition of slavery.
They can make only those choices their condition of slavery allows.

And that is the condition of unregenerate mankind.
They are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34) because of their fallen corrupt disposition which favors sin.
However, they can still make voluntary choices without external constraint,
they can still choose voluntarily to do some of the things they desire.
But the Bible states unregenerate man cannot choose to love and obey God,
because the mind of unregenerate man has been set in hostility to God by his fallen nature, and cannot submit to God's law (Ro 8:7).

When we speak of free will in its secular sense, it is the power to make all moral choices, including the choice to love and obey God, and if they choose, even to live a sinless life.
The Bible denies that unregenerate mankind has such power (Jn 8:34; Ro 8:7).

The Bible affirms that unregenerate mankind has the power to make voluntary choices, without external constraint, according to his disposition.
The Bible affirms that unregenerate mankind has the power to voluntarily choose to do what he wishes or desires.
But in its secular sense, that is not free will, that is simply free agency.
The free will of the Bible is limited and, therefore, in its secular sense, it is only free agency.

So we have the Biblical meaning of free will, which is the power to voluntary make choices, without external constraint, according to our disposition/condition, like the slave, and
we have the secular meaning of free will, which is the power to make all moral choices, even to life a sinless life.

Why is the distinction important?
Because free will in the Bible

• is limited, by unregenerate man's slavery to sin, and his will is not totally "free" in the secular sense,
• is only a matter of acting voluntarily, without external constraint, and
• is not a matter of being allowed the choice of all options, which is the secular meaning of free will.

And because God operates within the hearts of men causing them voluntarily, without external constraint to do as he wills, he is not violating their free will in the Biblical sense.

So man's free will in the Biblical sense is not violated by God's sovereignty in the actions of men.

That's one down, in the objections to God's sovereignty in the actions of men.

 

[psychomom]

Elin, now MS word is complaining about the work load.

love,
el

 

[Abiding]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lk 22:22 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

(Aim: To address the charges of injustice and odiousness raised by many against the sovereignty of God in the actions of men.)


I. Introduction:

We should probably begin with God's foreknowledge.

Please note that the multitude of Scriptures given as demonstrations in this presentation are not all concise statements in the particular Scripture, but can be seen in the context of the particular Scripture.

Ac 4:27-28 - Those who conspired "against God's holy servant, Jesus, did what God's purpose determined before to be done." exactly but note, they did conspire. In His wisdom and determined will He accomplished His will.

In looking at the Biblical meaning of foreknowledge in Ac 4:28, there are two things:

• the meaning of "determine" in its statement that "God determines beforehand what is done."
  determine = to fix (to set or place definitely; establish) conclusively or authoritatively; to decide; to ordain
  God knows in advance what is going to happen because he has determined that it shall happen.Nope Hes wiser than simply that. Thats a mansize idear there
  And to what God determines, there is no altering.
• the eternal principles stated in Ac 4:28 all that stated is that man did as He pleased and God accomplished His predermined plan with mens natural actions. Some were hardened in those natural wills but nevertheless it was mans decisions. God in His wisdom did His will with it all.
  1) It is God, not men, who determines what happens. Well of coarse in as much as His will is concerned
  2) What God determines, shall happen, because he has determined that it shall happen No, thats going too far, His ultimate will will come to pass. But His plan and what pleases Him entails many evils and things that He hates, suffers, and sends judgement, hardening, curses etc. When God wants to have His way then no doubt He will bring it to pass. But to say this is all just a movie coming from all God
• dreamed about in eternity past is just too oversimplistic.

And then in looking at the nature of God:

Scripture does not present a God whose will or plans are

• conditioned on or determined by (Ex 9:6; Ac 4:28),Partly true. Mostly not.
• thwarted by (2Chr 20:6; Job 9:12, 42:2; Is 14:27; Da 4:35 Ultimately not, but in the process not true.
• or who sustains loss because of (Jn 6:37; Ac 13:48) the actions of men.Loss is the sense God is complete
• and has no need. But in scripture there are several times God says He is not receiving what He wanted men to do and how the relationship He wants He is not getting. That He wanted to give them
• blessings they caused Him to withhold...this could go on for pages

Rather, Scripture presents a God

• who ordains or decrees everything (Lam 3:37), down to the last detail (Ps 50:11, 139:16, 147:4; Mt10:30)ltrue in a sense, not in a complete sense, meaning in every way we think. But according to His ultimate plan.
• whose plans cannot be thwarted by man (Job 5:12; Ps 33:10),true but keep in mind His ultimate will will include many things that grieves Him.
• and who is loser to no man (Mt 5:26 Hmmm the punishment itself is proof Gods justice was at a loss.

It is men, not Scripture, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do, and then basing his plans on their action Why is this a factor in this? Of coarse God knows the future, why would you discount that?
To alot of people that is a comfort, in more ways than just knowing He knew them before they were saved but in many other ways. Gods foreknowledge i understand has different meanings in different contexts. Just dont like
to see it get dissed on. I understand your point tho. Its used as almost a belittling of mans understanding.

The Scriptures present God as causing men to do what he wills them to do (Ge 20:6; Ex 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Dt 2:25, 30; Jos 11:20; 1Sa 10:9; 2Sa 24:1; 1Kgs 22:23; 1Chr 5:26; Ezr 1:1, 5, 7:27;
Ne 2:12, 7:5; Pr 21:1; Eze 14:9; Da 1:9; Jn 6:37; Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; 2Co 8:16; Rev 17:17).God causing things is true. Noone would argue His right or power to do so. But take your first example. God didnt go against the will of the man He gave him a dream and commanded the man with a threat if he didnt.

Second example take into consideration the plagues,deaths..etc. My point is is that of coarse noone can stop God Almighty, but i think your trying to make the point that God isnt working with man in mans private will and it just isnt going to work with these scriptures. They are showing quite the opposite.

The God presented in the Scriptures is sovereign. Of coarse He is
Everything that happens is according to his secret and all-wise counsel Everything that happens He is over but not the underlying cause of all that happens.
(Is 53:10; Da 11:36; Ac 2:23, 3:18, 4:28; 13:48)i wish these verses could have some rest. they mean precisely what they say but not what you are implying they say.
determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created (Mt 25:34; Eph 1:4; Rev 13:8, 17:8).More truths but again they only mean what was intended in the text.

For Scripture's answer to man's objection to this, see Ro 9:19-21This is what i see alot. This verse used as a pry and also in a rude way. You used it to say if anyone didnt believe what "you" said was true had a attitude with God. but that is in no way the reason Paul intended it. Youve taken it completely out of context. Romans 9 has nothing to do with individual salvation. But about the way God is working out the larger plan of redemption.

So Scripture's presentation of God's foreknowledge of what is going to happen is not a looking down the corridors of time and seeing in advance what men are going to do.
That notion is from the mind of man.
Actually God put this idea in our minds. Also God works with mens choices. He also put that in our minds.
God surely has it predetermined and decreed in advance but your taking out major parts, that He works with man and i read all the verses and was already familiar with them all and they didnt work for your thesis.

Rather, Scripture shows that God's foreknowledge of what is going to happen is based in his decree that it shall happen.
And that notion is from the mind of God You dont know the mind of God. And are missing a big part of what is going on. I agree that all His good pleasure WILL come to pass. That shows not only His power but His longsufferring(which i wont question you about now) and His Love and His wisdom, and His patience................

to be con't.

..............................To be con't.

ty for all your work Elin. These are good threads.
My favorites were lev. and the tabernacle. We could go through
the tiny details more someday since every implement and every
measurement and every material has significance u knew that

 

[Abiding]

ok so im a little late...nothing new

 

[Blain]

I'm sorry Elin correct me if i am wrong but are saying man is a slave to sin?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Humility is truth.

Humility is not truth when you go around telling everyone your right and they are wrong

it is not truth when you tell everyone if they read the word they would see it your way

it is not truth when you go around with an arrogant attitude.

The Jews do this with their judaism

The holy rolers do this with their truth

The mormons do this with their truth

Humility is saying, this is what I believe and this is why I believe it, If you want to agree fine, if you don't fine.

 

[zone]

Why is the distinction important?
Because free will in the Bible

• is limited, by unregenerate man's slavery to sin, and his will is not totally "free" in the secular sense,
• is only a matter of acting voluntarily, without external constraint, and
• is not a matter of being allowed the choice of all options, which is the secular meaning of free will.

And because God operates within the hearts of men causing them voluntarily, without external constraint to do as he wills, he is not violating their free will in the Biblical sense.

So man's free will in the Biblical sense is not violated by God's sovereignty in the actions of men.

That's one down, in the objections to God's sovereignty in the actions of men.

okay....i had no problem whatsoever understanding, and i believe all of the first part is so.

but this part, particularly the part bolded, i got lost on.

are you saying:

because God operates within the hearts of [unregenerate] men causing them voluntarily, without external constraint to do as he wills, he is not violating their free will in the Biblical sense

?

if so, i need to restart on that. i read it three times.
i'll wait to see if that's what you mean

 

[Stephen63]

Humility is not truth when you go around telling everyone your right and they are wrong

it is not truth when you tell everyone if they read the word they would see it your way

it is not truth when you go around with an arrogant attitude.

The Jews do this with their judaism

The holy rolers do this with their truth

The mormons do this with their truth

Humility is saying, this is what I believe and this is why I believe it, If you want to agree fine, if you don't fine.

Hey, if you're going to talk about us Pentecostals, you ought to at least spell "roller" correctly!

 

[Abiding]

Ive never seen freewill definitions that were consistent.
whether secular or biblical.

I never knew anyone who thought a unregenerate could live a perfect life?
I dont even think a regenerate person has free will. He can yield his will and seek grace is all.

I always just thought the term freewill simply meant man does as he pleases for the most part.
I agree for the most part that a mans choices are limited to his disposition and light.
I cant take it so far though like some who say we can only do what our nature allows
then i have to have adam and eves actions explained.

Id say i agreed all of that but i didnt understand much of it and i read it like 3 times.
But im guessing your trying to make a point natural man does not seek God on his own.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

II. Free Will:

In the Biblical sense of free will, the sovereignty of God over the wills of men is not an impediment to Biblical free will.

Unregenerate man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34; Ro 3:19; Gal 3:22). Slaves aren't free.
But slaves can still make some voluntary choices without external constraints,
slaves can still choose voluntarily to do some of the things they desire.
However, their choices are limited by their condition of slavery.
They can make only those choices their condition of slavery allows.

lol. A slave can do whatever he wants, If he does not do what his slaveowner wants him to he gets punished.

Of Course, mankind is already punished by spritual death. Thus, as a person who is dead to God. he can not do anything that God wants him to do. because he is unable to. If a person who is dead to God does the thing God wants him to, that would be a "good deed" , which scripture plainly states he can not do.

And that is the condition of unregenerate mankind.
They are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34) because of their fallen corrupt disposition which favors sin.
However, they can still make voluntary choices without external constraint,
they can still choose voluntarily to do some of the things they desire.

Voluntarily? can you show scripture please? Scripture states man does everything they want, And everything they do is apposed to God. It is man who has hardened their hearts to God, who chose sin, and to make their own Gods, and blinded themselves to the one true god, because they wanted control of their own lives, so they made Gods who would not judge them, or who would do what man wanted God to do.

But the Bible states unregenerate man cannot choose to love and obey God,
because the mind of unregenerate man has been set in hostility to God by his fallen nature, and cannot submit to God's law (Ro 8:7).

No argument here. of course they can't love or obey God, their hearts are at enmity with God. Thats why the relationship has to be restored. And justification has to occure.

When we speak of free will in its secular sense, it is the power to make all moral choices, including the choice to love and obey God, and if they choose, even to live a sinless life.
The Bible denies that unregenerate mankind has such power (Jn 8:34; Ro 8:7).

Again, I agree.

The Bible affirms that unregenerate mankind has the power to make voluntary choices, without external constraint, according to his disposition.
The Bible affirms that unregenerate mankind has the power to voluntarily choose to do what he wishes or desires.
But in its secular sense, that is not free will, that is simply free agency.
The free will of the Bible is limited and, therefore, in its secular sense, it is only free agency.

An unregenerate man can chose to be faithful to his wife. Can chose to not steel, not lie, or cheat. Thus they must be able to chose to make moral decisions based on the laws of God which is written in their heart. The problem is not that they can not do these things, It is why they are doing them,, which is what makes even these righteous deeds filthy rags.

So we have the Biblical meaning of free will, which is the power to voluntary make choices, without external constraint, according to our disposition/condition, like the slave, and
we have the secular meaning of free will, which is the power to make all moral choices, even to life a sinless life.

Why is the distinction important?
Because free will in the Bible

• is limited, by unregenerate man's slavery to sin, and his will is not totally "free" in the secular sense,
• is only a matter of acting voluntarily, without external constraint, and
• is not a matter of being allowed the choice of all options, which is the secular meaning of free will.

And because God operates within the hearts of men causing them voluntarily, without external constraint to do as he wills, he is not violating their free will in the Biblical sense.

God does not cause men to voluntarily do anything, Adam was alive to God the moment he sinned, He operated under his own free will. God did not have any part of him doing what he did. If God could do this, he would not have had to make Jonah spend three days in a fish, He would have caused him to voluntarily do what he willed him to do..

God puts things in our way to push us to do what he wants, but he never makes a man do anything he never would have done of his own free will in the first place. God uses mens free will against them.

The greatest example is satan. God his the church from the OT, and what the Christ would do, and used satan to nail Christ to the cross. The very lie satan used to turn 1/3 of the angels and most of mankind against God was destroyed when satan did this. Because it was not until Christ screamed psalm 52 that satan realised what was going on and it was too late. The HATE of satan against God and his son was his downfall. He voluntarily of his own free will put the final nail in his coffin, And proved to ALL CREATION that God was everything God said he was.

Now why would we want to give credability to Satan's lie by saying God does not love all his creation? By giving all men the same change of redemption. And leave it up to them to choice to trust him, or continue to trust self.

Mans sin was a trust in self. Christ took that and paid for it.. Now he says, do you trust me, or do you want to continue to trust self and die in your sin.

So man's free will in the Biblical sense is not violated by God's sovereignty in the actions of men.

That's one down, in the objections to God's sovereignty in the actions of men.

I did agree with part of it. I guess that is something. then again, it seams most doctrines I agree with some.. That happens when we ALL get our doctrines from the same book.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hey, if you're going to talk about us Pentecostals, you ought to at least spell "roller" correctly!

lol sorry, English is my worst subject

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm sorry Elin correct me if i am wrong but are saying man is a slave to sin?

Before a man comes to Christ yes they are, because they are under law and not grace.. A man under a law is a slave to the law.. thus he is a slave to sin.

 

[GreenNnice]

Humility is truth.

Humility is the beatitudes

I am going to work through what's been, the Lord's showed me to this,I will let Him discipline through this, either myself or others . I have much to pull...


....if God will let little ole green me

Pull!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ive never seen freewill definitions that were consistent.
whether secular or biblical.

I never knew anyone who thought a unregenerate could live a perfect life?
I dont even think a regenerate person has free will. He can yield his will and seek grace is all.

I always just thought the term freewill simply meant man does as he pleases for the most part.
I agree for the most part that a mans choices are limited to his disposition and light.
I cant take it so far though like some who say we can only do what our nature allows
then i have to have adam and eves actions explained.

Id say i agreed all of that but i didnt understand much of it and i read it like 3 times.
But im guessing your trying to make a point natural man does not seek God on his own.

I would say man does everything he wants. And everything he want is based on him being his own God. It is all based on self. even doing good things according to the law are evil in Gods eyes, because it is based on self desirte.. not out of love for the things of God.

 

[zone]

btw Elin (like she isn't uber-busy at the moment).....i knew i was saving this for something:

"Sooner or later, somebody is going to insist that the Bible be studied, and then there will be disunity".
Gary Summers

love ya
zone

 

[Stephen63]

The colder a Christian gets, the more he does what he wants. Let's not forget those lukewarm Christians in Revelation that Jesus said he would spew them out of his mouth. They were walking in legalism. I bet they thought they were always right too.

 

[Abiding]

Disunity is a choice. Disagreement is a fact. How we conduct ourselves is a choice.
Noone has to have disunity just because they disagree.
I disagree with Elin on some stuff but i think shes coool
And i look at all her gifts and i want all shes willing to give.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Disunity is a choice. Disagreement is a fact. How we conduct ourselves is a choice.
Noone has to have disunity just because they disagree.

This is what is called humility. and we need more of this in the church.

 

[Abiding]

This is what is called humility. and we need more of this in the church.

your not supposed to tell me that,,,sheesh now im gona get all puffed up

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The colder a Christian gets, the more he does what he wants. Let's not forget those lukewarm Christians in Revelation that Jesus said he would spew them out of his mouth. They were walking in legalism. I bet they thought they were always right too.

That is why the biggest way to turn people off and make it so they lose all faith that anything you say comes from god is to use those excuses..or to say if you do not agree with me, I will not be your friend anymore.

They had disagreements in the early church, and paul told them to love each other is spite of their disagreements as long as they believe what they say or do is for God.

except for salvic issues,, then we agree to disagree, but love and keep showing the truth and pray for the other.