Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

mark54 · Mar 18, 2013

I can't be bothered to wirte it all out again, please read a post I posted for uncle fester

You see, it is nothing more for people like you than theological debate of the little grey cells, for it cannot be more than that in truth.
As I have said to you before, neither Christ, Paul, Peter, James or John, plainly demnded what you do unto salvation. Neither will nearly all of the Trinitarian ministers from the pul[it, nor well over 90% of their congregations. All of this you have no choice but to ignore. For even Trinitarian ministers admit to me their is no plain verse of scripture anywhere in the Bible that states Christ is the one true God, not one. Yet to you eternal life hinges on believing it
On top of this I have given you the plainest of scriptures directly related to this subject which you also choose to ignore
On top of this I have pointed out you are refusing to accept the requirement of belief Christ himself laid down as to who a person must believe him to be by adding to it. This you also ignore.
But Trinitartian belief itself stands against you, for if a person being led by the Holy Spirit could refuse to accept a requirement of belief unto salvation that Christ Himself laid down by adding to it, then obnviously the Spirit ofd God must contradict the word of God, in Trinitarian terms God then contradicts God and the belief collapses. This you will also ignore.

Soi why do you ignore all of this overwhelming evidence?
Sadly, I have to say there can only be one possible reason, you like others on these websites have a Christianity based on the natural intellect of man/the little grey cells. It is impolssible for anyone led of the Holy Spirit to contradict the requirements of Christ unto salvation, absolutely impossible
I have come to the conclusion that some of you on these websites are lost in a world of making a god out of revelling in theological study of the little grey cells. And you come onto these websites believing through your studies you have great spiritual understanding and truth. But basically you believe in a trinity of Father, Son and the Bible. Nearly all the ministers in the pulpits don't want to know iof your deamnds onb these websites. And I am sorry, but you do not understand the basics of the Christian faith, for in effect you condemn people for standing on the palin words of Christ when he walked this earth. No one led of the Holy Spierit could possibly do that, but a person led of the natural intellect could.
Fior so many these websites givve them the opportunity they thrive on, theological debate, but I repat, it is not led of the Spirit for that would be impossible for the reasons given
Jesus said

At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
Luke10:21

It is true, that the average person on these websites knows only a small fraction of the truth the average church goer would, and the average churchgoer would never countenance refusing to accept any requirement of belief Christ himself laid down
It is the Holy Sprit who leads into truth, not the natural mind of man

I will leave byouj with the above. People(some people) come onto these werbsites weho have studied much and of subjercts that cannot in the slightest bernefit their Christian walk, IE
The beast with ten horns
The whore of Babylon
Predestination
Filoique
Pre trib rapture
They edo this because the revel in studying, nort because they are seeking to come ever clooser to the Fasthewr through the Son BIG DIFFERENCE.

So Rick
Whty is it left to people like you to proclaim the true Gospel on the internet?
We both know, that hardly any trinitarian ministers will stand in the pulpit and plainly state, if a person believes Jesus is the Son of God but not God Himself they cannot be saved with that belief, are therefore condemned if they keep that belief and will go to hell(your belief)

So either you are blessed with more spiritual insight than them, or they, like Christ, Paul, Peter, James and John refuse to plainly state salvific belief. But, peoplewhoi are wise in their own eyes will on websites like these-but even on these vwebsites only a few will
I can't be bothered to go on with this. You do not understand the basics of the Christian faith, for in effect you believe a person will stand condemn on the day of judgement for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth
I'm outta here. You, along with others are now on ignore. I came onto websites like these to discuss with Christians the Bilbe. not to read the posts of the spiritually imature, who cannot grasp the basics of the faith

mark54 · Mar 18, 2013

This one as well to complete the picture

No I'll tell you the truth Uncle that any unbaised person clearly knows to be true, you are in an impossible position, so you cannot honestly, and forthrightly answer the question

According to you this is a salvific issue, therefore if you have heartfelt conviction of this subject and answer according to that, you are forced to say that any minister who refuses to plainly and clearly state salvific belief from the pulpit and the consequences of getting it wrong should not be allowed to be a minister, for we all know a minister is obligated to plainly preach any salvific belief from the pulpit and the consequences of getting it wrong. However, you cannot state that can you, for you know as well as I do that hardly any Trinitarian ministers will plainly state from the pulpit what you believe, namely that if a person believes Christ is the Son of God but not God Himself they cannot be saved with that belief, and are therefore condemned if they stick to that belief
Therefore you would in effect be stating that nearly all of the Trinitarian ministers should not be allowed in the pulpits, something you obviously cannot do. That is clearly the truth, though obviously you will not admit it
For people like you inmsist upon and demand for salvation what clearly the ministyers will not demand from the pulpits(or hardly any would)

So either ministers are n ot as spiritually enlightened as you are, or they are woefully failing their flock
Either way, you must believe you will defend what you see as the truth and they will not from the pulpit

mark54 · Mar 18, 2013

the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]20 [/SUP]Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?[SUP]21 [/SUP]For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, [SUP]23 [/SUP]but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, [SUP]24 [/SUP]but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [SUP]25[/SUP]For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
[SUP]26[/SUP]Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. [SUP]28 [/SUP]God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, [SUP]29 [/SUP]so that no one may boast before him. [SUP]30 [/SUP]It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]d[/SUP][SUP]]

[/SUP]And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]a[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP] [SUP]2 [/SUP]For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. [SUP]3 [/SUP]I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. [SUP]4 [/SUP]My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, [SUP]5 [/SUP]so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[SUP][a][/SUP]; [SUP]20 [/SUP]and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.

Abiding · Mar 18, 2013

Elin, zone, any monergist, would you preach the gospel to anyone?
If so why? And if you say because God uses means is the means monergistic or synergistic?
Im not parroting although i do see already that all arguements are old which i didnt know
but it stands to reason after 100s of years. Ill try nevertheless to keep it new since
im new to the debate.

Thanks for bearing with me. Its been only a month ive looked into reformed thinking.
I cant wait till 6 months to a year from now. According to Elin im bipolar and ADD, well
i hope that helps me study.

Ive never in 40 years seen such a deep trench like this.
But i see the trench and its not all that big. I hope to start many threads in the future
to explain some of what i come to for the simple man. For the nonelect elect types.

And Elin again i owe you for coming and actually helping me get started on this
your outlines have been alot of help showing me the major motives behind these doctrines.
Whether from Elin, Eleanor73,smokeydot by now your a pro. Its a priviledge to have you.

zone · Mar 18, 2013

GreenNnice said:

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 4:19
We love because he first loved us.

green...the idea (i at least) am trying to zero in on is why some love God and others don't.
John saved He loved us first.
scripture said no one seeks after God, all have gone out of the way.
The Bible said people are called.
i'm not interested in nit-picking about the certain people who are saved while certain others aren't.

more interested in the single proposition that all have turned away, all are condemned already.
all have fallen short.

yet some are called and saved and some are not.

really, i'm only considering monergism (God decides to show Mercy, God effectively calls, God orders the steps of people, God uses the power of the Holy Spirit God-breathed Gospel to save, man is regenerated and given a new heart and eternally secured and sealed).

that together with the idea that i can not believe anything other than that He knows everything from the beginning. anything less than complete omniscience eternally just doesn't work, for me.

Acts 2:39
For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

this just clearly says the Lord calls people to Himself. and the promise is to them.

i'm not saying 98% of all people can't be those He calls and saves.
and i don't know why He decides to have Mercy. i know a crushed and contrite spirit moves Him/He look upon.
but i know for certain because i volunteered with certain people, that they have broken hearts and are confused and contrite.
yet they want nothing to do with the Gospel message.
then, i have seen a few people personally who thought they were doing swimmingly - never shed a tear of regret or anything like that - and heard the Gospel message and were crushed THEN by it...and were saved that very day.

but the Bible says some go away into everlasting fire.
so i just am really wondering why if God wants so strongly for all men to be saved, and it's His over-riding desire above everything else to make this happen - He could do it in a moment.

He could easily change the hearts of all men and and save them all through the Gospel (having them in the process ee and know and confess they have sinned against Him) - but He doesn't.

this also seems to be His personal decision.

i'm not trying to draw any conclusions about either group of people, because none deserve any Mercy.

i'm just trying to reach a bottom line on what Scripture says God will and will not Ultimately Accomplish, and if He'll be disappointed in HIS OWN WORK.

will He be sending people to everlasting fire satisfied because He gave them a chance to avoid it and they refused?

this might be true...but i ask myself (please no one actually address this, it's just something i wonder) - if it was His real over-riding desire above all else to save all, wouldn't He actually do MORE to accomplish that?

man is extremely ignorant...if man REALLY, TRULY understood the lake of fire and Judgment Day, would he really honestly make a fully informed choice and decide to CHOOSE Judgment before God, then being bound and taken away and thrown into the lake of fire?

he makes that clear-minded fully informed CHOICE to suffer eternal fire over over eternal life and joy?

zone · Mar 18, 2013

Abiding said:

you made comments about a lack of sincerity on my part, and i see this as insincere, mike.
i'm not elin's dopplerganger.

i'll answer the above because it's a valid question and i personally have answers, not because of the manner you're asking it which is a little unpredictable.

I'LL ANSWER THIS QUESTION ABOUT PREACHING THE GOSPEL in the post following this one.

though i don't know if you'll believe me, since at this time you appear to just despise monergism, though in other posts you said you were monergist. no doubt you said.
so you're really kind of inconsisent yourself mike.

one day you say one thing, the next day another...which is fine.
you've admitted this is new to you...reformed doctrine.
why i don't know because you list lots of reformed christians teachers and theologians you say you love and have agreed with and learned from.

as for the rest of this post, well....you seem think you've stumbled across 2 (or a handful) of monergists at CC who made up some funky thing.

do you really know this issue?

Abiding said:

again...i don't know how this could be after decades of reading and listening to reformed sermons (?)

Abiding said:

??
why the disdain for what God Himself has said is His own means of salvation - by His own Merciful choice.
this is what i don't understand.

either He is making the decisions or He is not. whether it's Mercy or whether it's no mercy.
it's HIM ALONE.

again, i'm not a calvinist - i never refer to myself and i would not refer to you as "God's elect".

at the same time, i never ever doubt my salvation.
i've never since the day my eyes were opened and believed have ever questioned that i am saved.
it's a soild, never to be moved absolute faith that He has called and saved and sealed and will deliver me home.
yet i know i never, ever, ever deserved any Mercy.

yet many people doubt...lots of doubt.
this part i don't understand either.

i've got my own mind, and my own beliefs.
please converse with me on that ground and don't assume i'm part of some blob of doctrines you said you're new to and part of some massive group you who believes things you deplore.

if it's true of my personal beliefs, that's fine.
let's try to keep it rational.

or we could come to an agreement if that's what you need to do that you are not in agreement, can not walk in agreement.
i respect this, if it's so, and will honor it.

it's best to maybe be certain on what ground you're making the decision, and if possible, but by now means required of course (we have our free will)...to inform me as to why you have made your decision.

it's hard to have a discussion when you seem new to the subject but have such intense emotions concerning it.

zone · Mar 18, 2013

i personally have preached the Gospel from the Word of God to many people.
i have seen a spectrum of reactions from disdain and rejection.....to an inability to even hear what is said....to 'let me think about it'.....to an immediate embracing and no looking back.

the people who have been saved have in each case testified it was a monergistic experience - not because i said anything like that beforehand....at all, not one time.

it never entered into evangelism i've done.

why would it? the person knows nothing about any "isms"...for a long time afterwards, if ever.

but they have said it was God's doing. that they didn't believe, then they did.

the repentance is there, the crying is there, the knowing how evil and sinful they are/were is there, straight from the Word of God only.
but the joy of His mercy and the joy of their redemption is also there.

is this NOT how the Holy Spirit works?
i don't really understand they question - why would a monergist preach the gospel.

and not one of them ever said early on in their conversion that they worked it. they say it was worked IN THEM. (a few might have changed their minds since then, and would now say they had part in it....i haven't talked to any who have yet)

i preach the Gospel all the time, mike.
and i see people respond across the spectrum

asking WHY a monergist would preach the Gospel is a sad commentary on what you must think it means.
or just a current state of confusion and bitterness i hope passes you by soon.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

mark54 · Mar 18, 2013

He was slain from before the foundations of the earth! - (Tell me how a creation can be slain before they were created?)

Though you are now on ignore, having read this again:

Who has said Christ did not exist before the foundations of the earth were laid?
Answers still the same
He was slain In the mind of the Father before the creation of the world

That is my last comment to you, for the reasons given. You people are trapped in ignorance due to relying on yourselves and your intellects to learn spiritual truth, that is why you make your extra biblical demands for salvation and try and reason this according to your little greycells in extrapolationg scripture to the point of simply ending up contradicting the plain word on this subject.

It comes down to pride, vanity, and ego

Do you see a person wise in their own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for them.
Proverbs26:12

I will leave you to make your extra biblical demands that nearly all of the Trinitarian ministers will not make from their pulpits and the consequences of getting it wrong.
I'm outta this thread
I'll leave you all to discuss the ttile of the thread, my apologies for contributing to sidetracking away from it

zone · Mar 18, 2013

mark54 said:

He was slain from before the foundations of the earth! - (Tell me how a creation can be slain before they were created?)

Though you are now on ignore, having read this again:

Who has said Christ did not exist before the foundations of the earth were laid?
Answers still the same
He was slain In the mind of the Father before the creation of the world

That is my last comment to you, for the reasons given. You people are trapped in ignorance due to relying on yourselves and your intellects to learn spiritual truth, that is why you make your extra biblical demands for salvation and try and reason this according to your little greycells in extrapolationg scripture to the point of simply ending up contradicting the plain word on this subject.

It comes down to pride, vanity, and ego

Do you see a person wise in their own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for them.
Proverbs26:12

I will leave you to make your extra biblical demands that nearly all of the Trinitarian ministers will not make from their pulpits and the consequences of getting it wrong.
I'm outta this thread
I'll leave you all to discuss the ttile of the thread, my apologies for contributing to sidetracking away from it

pride, vanity and ego is at the bottom of 'the error' of those who say Jesus is God?

that's just plain weird.
eh...arians.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory.

Earlmayknowornot · Mar 18, 2013

Yeah Prove it. Show me specific scripture that explains it. Or is it what you believe. Show me proof

Earlmayknowornot · Mar 18, 2013

I am like the Pharisee show me a sign. Prove by scripture what you say. Prove it.

mark54 · Mar 18, 2013

zone said:

you just never change do you Zone. It was clear the post you responded to was speaking of people who make extra biblical demands for salvation.
IE
You must believe Christ is God Himself unto salvation. It was not attacking people who want to simply believe Christ is God Himself, but those who make such a belief a salvation issue. Like nearly all the Trinitarian ministers you know, who even if they believev Christ is God Himself, don't state from the pulpit that if you believe Christ is the son of God but not God Himself you cannot be saved with that belief and therefore must be condemned(your belief) big difference

You know Zone if ever there was an example of the futility of looking to theologians and scholars to gain head knowledge, you must be it. You twisty and turn what people write on this website, you harrangue people, try and belittle them follow them around and harrass them. People are afraid to voice their opinions on subjects, in case you go after them too. That can't be right. But it doesn't matter does it, for you have read greatly of scholars and theologians and you plaster their work on this website. You got the head bknowledge, because those you look to have given you it
You know what you've done don't you. You have theologised yourself to a place where you don't even understand the basics of the Christian faith. For in effect you condemn people for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth
You have theologised yourself into a place of being a babe in the faith, filling your head with many subjects that cabnnot help you at all in your Christian walk. But your god is studying, because you revel in it, that's the reason you do it.

Nearly all the ministers from the pulpits won't state your demands, or as you see it, the consequences of getting it wrong, very few of them would want to proclaim your beliefs on this subject, so like I said to others, either people like you are left to proclaim the truth unto salvation on the internet because the mninisters in the pulpit are not as spiritually enlightened as you are, or they refuse to do their Christian duty, and leave it to the likes of you on the internet.
Thing is Zone, they're not led by Pride, vanity, and the ego, on this subject, neither is anyone else who does not make it into extra biblical demands for salvation
The average person in church knows far more of what is truly important than you head theologists on the internet, for you refuse to accept the requiremnt of belief Christ himself laid down unto salvation, you add to it. You are blind guides leading the blind, and you only have the internet to make these extra biblical demands don't you
Hey, why not stand on a street corner and proclaim what to you is the true Gospel if hardly any of the ministers will do it. Tell peopple straight. If they believe Jesus is the son of God, but nort the one true God himself they cannot be saved with such a belief, and will vgo to hell with that belief, see how you get on.
Don't just blow your trumpet here in cyberspace, go and do it in the real world

Elin · Mar 18, 2013

Abiding said:

You gave your opinion.

I want to see the Scriptures where it is stated.

Elin · Mar 18, 2013

Abiding said:

I recommend you inform yourself of the Scriptures, rather than any theology.

Jesus said no one could even see the kingdom of God until he was born again.
So no one can believe until he is born again.

"I (the faithful and true witness) tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God until he is born again." (Jn 3:3)

So what do you think?

Elin · Mar 18, 2013

Abiding said:

If it's Scriptural, I will understand it.

If it is based in prophetic riddles, their interpretation is not certain.

I stick with what is certain in the word of God, because I know that what is not certain in prophetic riddles will always be in agreement with what is certain.

I don't do private uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles.

I do only Biblical certain interpretation of prophetic riddles, as we have in Daniel.

Elin · Mar 18, 2013

Abiding said:

I don't think it's caused by bipolar.

Perhaps you should consider the Scriptures objectively, and not just subjectively assign motives to those with whom you do not agree.

You've got to come out of the subjective mode to understand the counsels of God.

cfultz3 · Mar 18, 2013

Elin said:

It would seem that instead of being born again to believe, we who believe are born again. How is it possible to be born again unless you have believed (placed your faith) in Jesus (accepted Him as God's way to salvation).

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Elin said:

It would seem that John 3:3 is saying that we are to be born again before we can enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). And how are we born again: believe that Jesus is Christ (1John 5:1).

How then can we be born before we believe?

Elizabeth619 · Mar 18, 2013

Elin said:

That makes no sense whatsoever. How can you be born again if you don't believe first?

Elin · Mar 18, 2013

Earlmayknowornot said:

Earl, please use the "Reply with Quote" button.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 18, 2013

Elizabeth619 said:

you figured out what nicodemus figured out! and what jesus told him.

Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

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