Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[eternally-gratefull]

It would seem that instead of being born again to believe, we who believe are born again. How is it possible to be born again unless you have believed (placed your faith) in Jesus (accepted Him as God's way to salvation).

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.



It would seem that John 3:3 is saying that we are to be born again before we can enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). And how are we born again: believe that Jesus is Christ (1John 5:1).

How then can we be born before we believe?

or to take it further. until we are born again through belief in Christ, we can not experience the kingdom of God.

alot of people see, but until you experience, your not really seeing it.. (hope this makes sense)

 

[zone]

Now, also as far as the responsibility of man for being saved, it is ONLY His responsibility to come to the 'wedding feast' with the proper 'garment,' which is..... ? I think it's righteousness myself, one needs to be in right standing with God, and, the king immediately noticed this man going to the wedding feast in parable of the wedding feast was WITHOUT the proper 'garment.' It wasn't 'garments,' it was one garment, so to speak. And, when God tells you to do something you are to DO IT. Or else Who knows/ Great is the mercy of God. But, yes, there is no reason in the world to think that man is in control, God is sovereign, He knows, but man does have a mind and God KNOWS exactly what that man's mind is thinking, has thought, will think....

so you are saved by works ('doing what the Father tells you or else')?

and you do that by "listening" to the leading of the Spirit? or what?

the garment was provided by The Father to the guests at the Wedding of The Son in eastern culture.
the garment is Christ's Righteousness, imo.

the guy who showed up in his own clothes, insulted the Father....why would that be green?

Romans 3
The Righteousness of God Through Faith
21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

 

[Elin]

I'm outta this thread

I'll leave you all to discuss the ttile of the thread, my apologies for contributing to sidetracking away from it

Can I count on that?

you just never change do you Zone. It was clear the post you responded to was speaking of people who make extra biblical demands for salvation.

Apparently, not.

Here you are again.

It's time to keep your word, mark, and stop derailing this thread.

 

[Elin]

It would seem that instead of being born again to believe, we who believe are born again. How is it possible to be born again unless you have believed (placed your faith) in Jesus (accepted Him as God's way to salvation).

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.


It would seem that John 3:3 is saying that we are to be born again before we can enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). And how are we born again: believe that Jesus is Christ (1John 5:1).

How then can we be born before we believe?

Jesus didn't say "enter," he said "see," as in believe, understand by faith what it means.

 

[Elin]

That makes no sense whatsoever. How can you be born again if you don't believe first?

There's noting illogical about it, that it does not make sense.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus didn't say "enter," he said "see," as in believe, understand by faith what it means.

I disagree. I think he said see as in know what it is, or understand. But first we must believe it is real and enter in the way God said (by believing his son) then we will see it.. that was what jesus was telling him from the beginning, culmination is how one enters (john 3: 16) then telling us who will see it, and who will not (john 3: 18-21)

 

[mark54]

Can I count on that?


Apparently, not.

Here you are again.

It's time to keep your word, mark, and stop derailing this thread.

Well a while ago you said you weren't bothered if the thread didn't stay on topic.

I think its only right if when it is suggested I am saying other than what I am plainly stating I correct that
I am sure you would wish to do the same yourself

 

[Elizabeth619]

There's noting illogical about it, that it does not make sense.

Apparently it is illogical. People seem to disagree with your view.

Over 1000 posts... I get the feeling there is very little logic in this thread.

 

[zone]

And, when Jesus says , 'Many are called, few are chosen,' He is speaking of those who He KNOWS will choose Him.

so, God looked through time and saw who would choose Him and proceeded with creation?
then why did He proceed to cause me to be born He knew WOULDN'T?

or He does know who will choose Him and yet is only finding out in real time?

 

[tribesman]

so, God looked through time and saw who would choose Him and proceeded with creation?
then why did He proceed to cause me to be born He knew WOULDN'T?

or He does know who will choose Him and yet is only finding out in real time?

The "corridors of time" thing is bordering on open theism.

 

[cfultz3]

Jesus didn't say "enter," he said "see," as in believe, understand by faith what it means.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Elin]

J
esus didn't say "enter," he said "see," as in believe, understand by faith what it means.

I disagree. I think he said see as in know what it is, or understand.

That is precisely what I said.

Unregenerate darkness cannot comprehend the light (Jn 1:5).

The unregenerate man cannot receive the things that come from the Spirit of God,
they are foolishness to him (1Co 2:14).

Faith is a gift (Php 1:29).

I believe only by grace (Ac 18:27).

But first we must believe it is real and enter in the way God said (by believing his son) then we will see it.. that was what jesus was telling him from the beginning, culmination is how one enters (john 3: 16) then telling us who will see it, and who will not (john 3: 18-21)

That's not what Jn 3:3 states.

You have reversed the order of the text.

 

[Elin]

Well a while ago you said you weren't bothered if the thread didn't stay on topic.

I think its only right if when it is suggested I am saying other than what I am plainly stating I correct that
I am sure you would wish to do the same yourself

So you are saying you choose to continue derailing the thread?

 

[Elin]

Apparently it is illogical. People seem to disagree with your view.

Over 1000 posts... I get the feeling there is very little logic in this thread.

Logic is not the basis of the disagreement.

 

[zone]

you just never change do you Zone. It was clear the post you responded to was speaking of people who make extra biblical demands for salvation.
IE
You must believe Christ is God Himself unto salvation.

ha?
never heard anybody preach that.

then again i never sat in a church where a guy stood up and repeatedly harped on the fact 'Jesus is a created entity and why are you all placing extra-biblical demands on me'?

nobody is placing any demands on you.
believe what you want!
nobody cares...until you're like a scorpion making it clear in every thread on every forum on the www you believe the Trinity is false doctrine. that Jesus specifically and precisely IS NOT GOD, but a god.

why play duh like you don't know what reaction yer gonna get?
don't you have anything better to do?

It was not attacking people who want to simply believe Christ is God Himself

since Jesus IS NOT GOD, is it not your responsibility to be CERTAIN to preach plainly and simply from the Scriptures that men SHOULD NEVER WORSHIP Jesus, since that would be IDOLATRY?

or is it just loosey-goosey any god is fine?
ya...polytheism says many gods, and that's cool.

long as y'all don't make any demands on simple little ol' me.

You know Zone if ever there was an example of the futility of looking to theologians and scholars to gain head knowledge, you must be it. You twisty and turn what people write on this website, you harrangue people, try and belittle them follow them around and harrass them. People are afraid to voice their opinions on subjects, in case you go after them too. That can't be right. But it doesn't matter does it, for you have read greatly of scholars and theologians and you plaster their work on this website. You got the head bknowledge, because those you look to have given you it
You know what you've done don't you. You have theologised yourself to a place where you don't even understand the basics of the Christian faith. For in effect you condemn people for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth
You have theologised yourself into a place of being a babe in the faith, filling your head with many subjects that cabnnot help you at all in your Christian walk. But your god is studying, because you revel in it, that's the reason you do it.

simple advice:

stay off the head knowledge threads you hate.
stop following people around on unrelated threads spamming the same JESUS IS NOT GOD stuff.

simple.

Thing is Zone, they're not led by Pride, vanity, and the ego, on this subject, neither is anyone else who does not make it into extra biblical demands for salvation

you head theologists on the internet
you head theologists on the internet
you head theologists on the internet
you head theologists on the internet
you head theologists on the internet

previously, from episode 5000 of mark54 - JESUS IS NOT GOD:
"outta this thread
I'll leave you all to discuss the ttile of the thread, my apologies for contributing to sidetracking away from it"

zone asked:

pride, vanity and ego is at the bottom of 'the error' of those who say Jesus is God?

that's just plain weird.
eh...arians

............

"7 year old children, can anyone tell me Who these scriptures are saying is God?"

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory.

that's JESUS!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is precisely what I said.

Unregenerate darkness cannot comprehend the light (Jn 1:5).

The unregenerate man cannot receive the things that come from the Spirit of God,
they are foolishness to him (1Co 2:14).

Faith is a gift (Php 1:29).

I believe only by grace (Ac 18:27).

That's not what Jn 3:3 states.

You have reversed the order of the text.

lol.. Why is it called a light? so those who are in darkness can be drawn to the light. that is why we are to be lights, to draw people to God.

As John said, Jesus came, so that through the light (hismelf) , people MIGHT (maybe they will, maybe they won't) Believe in that light.

I did not reverse the order of anything. Jesus told him how to be born again in John 3: 16. it is plain and simple.. But some people I guess do not "comprehend it"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The "corridors of time" thing is bordering on open theism.

God is outside of time, to him all things have already happened. Thus he is not limited to time.

Of course us in our finite minds cannot comprehend this, we can just take it on faith

 

[Elin]

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So one neither "sees" nor "enters" until he is born again.

 

[cfultz3]

So one neither "sees" nor "enters" until he is born again.

and how are we born again:

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So one neither "sees" nor "enters" until he is born again.

And how are we born again?

John 3: 16.. He who believes..will HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.. (the act of giving eternal life IS the act of BEING born again.)