Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

hattiebod · Mar 18, 2013

I have not been on CC very long & I do enjoy reading the posts very much. But i find this thread just becoming more and more hurtful and divisive....
Prov. 12:16. A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult'.
prov. 19:11. 'A mans wisdom gives him patience ; it is to his glory to overlook an offence.
1 Peter 4:8 'Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers a multitude of sins'.
I know you all love the Lord, I can tell your are all so passionate about sharing your insights, it is usually so helpful to read the debates, gain deeper understanding and yes, sometimes marvel at your level of learning & knowledge

But...I feel sad to read such threads when they disintegrate into trading insults. I weep and I think the Lord does too, to think a person searching for the freedom, hope & love, salvation & redemption...would read such posts. No more please? Without love we are 'clanging symbols'. I hear the clanging....its not good....music please?

<><

Abiding · Mar 18, 2013

hattiebod said:

I have not been on CC very long & I do enjoy reading the posts very much. But i find this thread just becoming more and more hurtful and divisive....
Prov. 12:16. A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult'.
prov. 19:11. 'A mans wisdom gives him patience ; it is to his glory to overlook an offence.
1 Peter 4:8 'Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers a multitude of sins'.
I know you all love the Lord, I can tell your are all so passionate about sharing your insights, it is usually so helpful to read the debates, gain deeper understanding and yes, sometimes marvel at your level of learning & knowledge

But...I feel sad to read such threads when they disintegrate into trading insults. I weep and I think the Lord does too, to think a person searching for the freedom, hope & love, salvation & redemption...would read such posts. No more please? Without love we are 'clanging symbols'. I hear the clanging....its not good....music please?

<><

Your absolutely right hattiebod. ty and sorry!

unclefester · Mar 18, 2013

hattiebod said:

I have not been on CC very long & I do enjoy reading the posts very much. But i find this thread just becoming more and more hurtful and divisive....
Prov. 12:16. A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult'.
prov. 19:11. 'A mans wisdom gives him patience ; it is to his glory to overlook an offence.
1 Peter 4:8 'Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers a multitude of sins'.
I know you all love the Lord, I can tell your are all so passionate about sharing your insights, it is usually so helpful to read the debates, gain deeper understanding and yes, sometimes marvel at your level of learning & knowledge

But...I feel sad to read such threads when they disintegrate into trading insults. I weep and I think the Lord does too, to think a person searching for the freedom, hope & love, salvation & redemption...would read such posts. No more please? Without love we are 'clanging symbols'. I hear the clanging....its not good....music please?

<><

Troublemaker ...

jk

GreenNnice · Mar 19, 2013

Yes, zone, I believe the man who came to the door for the wedding feast was invited, called to come but He chose not to be dressed right, and, I believe His missing clothing was righteousness.

I should bring up some of your other sentences about ...He KNEW wouldn't,' LOL, but I was throrougly confused and can't even think you knew what you said, what's more, LOL, I'm even more confused that nile and tribers 'liked' your post. And, still more confusing, I said that 'righteousness' was the garment that the wedding guest was missing and you said it was , in your opinion, too, the garment, missing, so, even in our agreements, ohzone, you find ways to disagree, LOL.
__________
And, tribers, explain yourself, since you like to use big words from your 'mind of Christ,' what is it that made you think what I said about the wedding guest clothed not in righteousness that triggered you thinking what I thought was 'bordering on theism?' Again, yes, one God, creator of the universe.

Ah, why bother, I've got enough argumentation from you without asking us to get in on it on this remark of yours

GreenNnice · Mar 19, 2013

hattiebod said:

The Lord leads, hattie, but, you are right, we are told not to be taken in by 'divisiveness' and so it is we obviously do not listen to He who tells us after 'one or two times' not to 'take it in' anymore.

But, too, this thread has good points, it's just that it's so much a topic of one's faith in Christ, not belief, mind you, we all are imputed Christ's righteousness the MOMENT we believe, we are in right standing with God. But, yeah, 'nuf said, and, it's nice to see one of your (I'm sure 'many') beattitudes gift 'peacemaking' in this volatile thread, milady

mark54 · Mar 19, 2013

hattiebod said:

Hattie
I apologise for being one of those who has upset you
But making a general point and not seeking to excuse wrong behaviour. On websites like these there will always be dissention and disagreement that at times goes far beyond what it should. Why does this happen?
Well one reason would be, many undoubtedly come onto these websites believing they know much of the faith and are here basically to teach others what they think they know. If they then have a discussion with someone else who believes they are also on the website to teach others, and the two of them have a disagreement on doctrine, inevitably there will be much strife
Also, some will inevitably be led of the Spirit in their thinking on an issue/issues and others will not, that will cause further contention.
Though sites like these can be good places to meet others for compnay and to discuss 'the bible it is always good to remember that in most cases we are not ministers who are qualified to preach, but just people who like to discuss the bible.

And you always have to remember this is cyberspace, and from my experiance a completely different world from a church enviroment, with different emphasis, demands, and discussion. To be blunt, this is not the real world, and though you may feel people have more doctrinal knowledge than you on sites like these, I doubt many would have more of the doctrine that matters most than do you. And the doctrine I often see you speak of has not been learned of great study of theologhians or scholars, but from reading the bible and being convicted of the truth you have read by the Spirit
There is no more impotant doctrine. Don't feel you are behind others where it matters, you are probably a long way in front of many, including me where it counts most
I hope that if you spend much time on these websites that never changes, for there is a danger that doctrine simply becomes head knowledge and not Spirit led, if that happens these sites then become counterproductive
God Bless

zone · Mar 19, 2013

GreenNnice said:

Yes, zone, I believe the man who came to the door for the wedding feast was invited, called to come but He chose not to be dressed right, and, I believe His missing clothing was righteousness.

I should bring up some of your other sentences about ...He KNEW wouldn't,' LOL, but I was throrougly confused and can't even think you knew what you said, what's more, LOL, I'm even more confused that nile and tribers 'liked' your post. And, still more confusing, I said that 'righteousness' was the garment that the wedding guest was missing and you said it was , in your opinion, too, the garment, missing, so, even in our agreements, ohzone, you find ways to disagree, LOL.

if you don't use quote feature can't respond.
not scrolling back to see what you're talking about.

Elin · Mar 19, 2013

Abiding said:

Your attitude is showing.

Are the parables only what they mean on the surface?
Did not the meaning of some have to be explained to the apostles because the meaning below the surface was not apparent to them?

Are the OT animal sacrifices only what they appear to be on the surface?
Are they only about the blood of animals reconciling the sinner to God?

Did the OT people of God have a "shallow" understanding of reconciliation?

The sacrifices are not, and the people did not.

And to frame a statement, that much of Scripture has more than a surface meaning, as a claim to some kind of superior knowledge is more about your attitude and your need to discredit by association what you do not agree with, than it is about anything else.

Where does Jesus tell us to "humble" ourselves?

The contrast here is between the wise in their own truth, and those who, through trust and obedience, as little children trust and obey their parents, have been made wise in God's truth.

For someone who so dislikes "attitude," you seem to have a lot of it.

Perhaps more objectivity is in order.

Subjectivity is the cause of experiencing "attitude" where there is none.

Elin · Mar 19, 2013

Abiding said:

The gnostics, or the Great men, taught orthodoxy?

Abiding · Mar 19, 2013

Your right ill admit i have an attitude. It isnt the depth of scripture.
Its philosophy. I wont be bothering you any longer thanks for the help.
At least ive finally seen the doctrine.

Orthodoxy depends on whos
calling the shots.

mark54 · Mar 19, 2013

As little children.
Jesus thanked the Father that He refused to give it to the wise and gave it to babes.

The contrast here is between the wise in their own truth, and those who, through trust and obedience, as little children trust and obey their parents, have been made wise in God's truth.

A bit like Paul explained?

[SUP] [/SUP]Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. [SUP]28 [/SUP]God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, [SUP]29 [/SUP]so that no one may boast before him. [SUP]30 [/SUP]It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]d[/SUP][SUP]]

And
[/SUP]Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]a[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP]; [SUP]20 [/SUP]and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile

RickShafer · Mar 19, 2013

Mark54,
You fool yourself.
God didn't just 'foreknow' Jesus, He sent His only begotten Son.
Worthy is the Lamb that was slain.
What Lamb?
Just any?
You speak well of the foolish things of this world;
......and you cannot find one trinitarian or oneness preacher who does not believe Jesus was God made flesh.
It's MOST simple for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. - (I guess that leaves you out).

RickShafer · Mar 20, 2013

mark54 said:

"As little children.
Jesus thanked the Father that He refused to give it to the wise and gave it to babes.

The contrast here is between the wise in their own truth, and those who, through trust and obedience, as little children trust and obey their parents, have been made wise in God's truth."

Your pride and lack of wisdom is etched on your own heart,........please read the Bible.
For it was written for babes.
What you accuse others of doing, is in fact your downfall.
From now on, please refute the scripture I quote with your own. - (After all, you are not a three year old, and you can read.)

RickShafer · Mar 20, 2013

Mark54,
There are NO theologians that claim Jesus wasn't God incarnate.
Even the phoney-baloney eastern religions attach themselves to Him as having a "Christ consciousness".
Please relieve yourself under their pyramid........(oh, you already have).

RickShafer · Mar 20, 2013

Baaaah, ha, ha, ha!!!!!!!!
It's funny reading people paint themselves into a corner by their subjective friendships over and above understanding.
Baaaaaahhhh,ha,ha,ha!!!!!!!

mark54 · Mar 20, 2013

RickShafer said:

Mark54,
You fool yourself.
God didn't just 'foreknow' Jesus, He sent His only begotten Son.

Obviously
Worthy is the Lamb that was slain.
What Lamb?
Just any?
You speak well of the foolish things of this world;

You are the one following man, not me. Your belief only became official church policy 300 years after Christ died on the cross.
Assuming you believe God has always required unto salvation the same belief as to who Christ is since he died on the cross, who is responsible for those before Nicea who solely believed Christ was the Son of God not God Himself going to hell?
And there were many, many people who only believed Jesus was the son of God as you know. Was the official early church responsible for people going to hell who only believed Jesus was the son of God? Have they got blood on their hands for not telling people who they must believe Christ to be to inherit
eternal life?
......and you cannot find one trinitarian or oneness preacher who does not believe Jesus was God made flesh.

Wake up Rick. Hardly any trinitarian ministers will preach the extra biblical demands from the pulpit people like you make on the internet. They may themselves believe Christ is the one true God, but they don't make it a salvation issue to their flock(I have never heard of one in Britain who does, though accept an odd few may
So please tell me Rick. Why is it left mainly to a few people on the internet to preach the truth of the belief needed unto salvation as to who Christ is? How come you're not a minister? According to what you believe the overwhelming majority of Triniutarian ministers can't do their jobs properly, for you and I both know, as does everyone else a minister is obligated to plainly and clearly preach from the pulpit any salvific belief and the consequences of getting it wrong. Aren't you bothered that they don't? no your not are you, for this is no more for you than a theological exercise of the little grey cells, not heartfelt conviction.
It's MOST simple for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. -
You mean people with eyes to see and ears to hear what is not commanded anywhere in the NT. So to be a Christian you cannot believe when Christ plainly stated on this earth, as Paul said:

The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise are futile
1Cor3:21

(I guess that leaves you out).

Answers above

mark54 · Mar 20, 2013

RickShafer said:

mark54 said:

But you haven't got any scripture where your extra biblcal demands are stated, not one, so how can we discuss the subject according to scripture, it's not possible.
My pride and l;ack of wisdom?
Peoiple come on the internet and make their extra biblical demands unto salvation that hardly any ministers will make from the pulpits, and tell vpeople they are condemned if they don't believe them. They refuse to accept the words of Christ and John as to requirement of belief needed as to who Christ is unto salvation
Well over 90
% of churchgoers would never do that, they would happily accept anyone as a Christian who solely berlieved Jesus was the Son of God. So who has the pride? People who consider themselves wise in their own eyes through them believeing they have great knoweledge of the faith through all their effort and hard work to strive to learn of their little grey cells. I think you need to look closer to home where pride is concerned Rick. It isn't me who believes I know more than Christ himself as to the belief required in him unto salvation
The bible was written for babes, but you believe Christianity hinges on a belief not demanded in scripture, you sure you really believe the bible was written for babes Rick?

mark54 · Mar 20, 2013

RickShafer said:

Hello, can anyone hear me? Hardly any Trinitarian ministers would preach from the pulpit that if you believe Jesus is the Son oif God but not the one true God you cannot be saved wiuth such a belief, and therefore will go to hell if you keep that belief(your belief)
Ministers may believe Christ is thev one true God but they don't make it a salvation issue(or hardly any would) do you understand now Rick?
It's a few of you people mainly on the internet who are wise in your own eyes and have studied much(and in many cases of subjects that can't possibly benefit their Christian walk in respect of coming closer to God and taking up their crosses and following after Christ)

It must be hard for you rick(as you see it) You are left languishing on the internet preaching the true message while nearly all of those in the pulpits refuse to plainly preach what to you is salvific belief and the consequences of getting it wrong
It must be very frustrating for you

RickShafer · Mar 20, 2013

Nothing is frustrating to me about people who can't read.
The internet, which you keep referring to, is a small part of my ministry.
Do you think I am constrained by your illogic? - Hardly.
Hello!
You say - "No one makes Jesus as God incarnate a salvific issue"?
Are you kidding?
"I am the door".
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me." - Sounds salvific to me.
Get off your high horse, and back on your rocker. - Jesus is God made flesh.
No man comes to the Father(eternal Spirit), but through Him.
He proceeded from the Father(great Spirit), and He went back to the Father, from whom He proceeded.

For you to make a theological distinction between the Father and the Son as to who is divine is both ridiculous and laughable.
Listen Mark54, PLEASE READ!

mark54 · Mar 20, 2013

RickShafer said:

Baaaah, ha, ha, ha!!!!!!!!
It's funny reading people paint themselves into a corner by their subjective friendships over and above understanding.
Baaaaaahhhh,ha,ha,ha!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

That's an intelligent comment Rick
Why is a person painting themselves into a corner if they accept the requirement of belief Christ himself laid down as to who a person must believe him to be to inherit eternal life-they don't add to it?
Please explain I don't understand

Problem is, and this is the problem, as a minister said on another website
People come onto the internet, who think they know
Many(not all) on the internet live a Walter Mitty style existence, they have on overinflated opinion of what they think they know, they try and explain subbjects the ministers shy away from discussing, because they think they know

The same minister said
Anyone who believes they can fully understand the working out of Father, Son and Holy Spirit shows how little they understand of the subject.

But it doesn't stop the few(only a few thank goodness) who are wise in their own eyes from coming on the internet and making their extra biblical demands unto salvation, based on what they think they know

Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

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