Straw Man Walking
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There's a straw man right there! I have never heard any Lutheran, Catholic, or anyone who thought Baptism a Sacrament, claim that it was a work of righteous. It is a Sacrament, which is GOD does something thorough a tangible means.
Book of Concord:
Therefore Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments. For these rites have God's command and the promise of grace, which is peculiar to the New Testament.
Catholic Encyclopedia:
Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification
Sorry if this has already been covered, but THIS strawman REALLY ticks me off... we do NOT believe these are just ceremonies, just ordinances or obedience to Christ, but that God uses them to bless us - as He used Moses' staff at the Red Sea, used the slingshot of David... Seems so easy for people to wrap their minds around God using objects in Scripture, but the "God that never changes" can't/won't do it today!
ugh
Book of Concord:
Therefore Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments. For these rites have God's command and the promise of grace, which is peculiar to the New Testament.
Catholic Encyclopedia:
Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification
Sorry if this has already been covered, but THIS strawman REALLY ticks me off... we do NOT believe these are just ceremonies, just ordinances or obedience to Christ, but that God uses them to bless us - as He used Moses' staff at the Red Sea, used the slingshot of David... Seems so easy for people to wrap their minds around God using objects in Scripture, but the "God that never changes" can't/won't do it today!
ugh
E
what ticks me off is people doing works in order to earn salvation. Yet write it off by saying its a work of God or a sacrament or something, to convince themselves and other people it is not a work to earn salvation, when reality says it is.
thats a lie of satan placing a small amount of truth with a big lie, and will lead people to hell
You do understand that works are NOT for God to know your heart. People really do not understand there OWN HEARTS. People can truly believe that they are turnips,but that DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE. There are a lot of Christians that really believe they are saved,but the PROOF IS NOT in their walk. Our hearts can LIE to us and we can be fooled into all kinds of things. Words MEAN NOTHING if the actions DON'T back it up.
They are also for the sake of the saints as it the proving ground of those that are false,for the saints to STAY AWAY FROM as those that are false will lead the saints away.
They are also for the sake of the saints as it the proving ground of those that are false,for the saints to STAY AWAY FROM as those that are false will lead the saints away.
E
you do understad that most of the proverbs are speaking of how he fell and how he was restored? how do you think he come up with most of the proverbs?
as for 1 kings 4. Nothing there says he wrote that book before.
You do understand God did not have a person who will be in hell put words in his bible do you not?
E
so what does this have to do with people losing salvation and preaching a works based Gospel?
You keep asking me if I know stuff I have been saying and teaching all along.
all this does is prove you do not listen to a word I say, and have not since I first got in here and we started discussing the word.
You keep asking me if I know stuff I have been saying and teaching all along.
all this does is prove you do not listen to a word I say, and have not since I first got in here and we started discussing the word.
Did the High Priest sacrificed the lamb and sprinkled the blood on the mercy seat,were they working to EARN THEIR SALVATION? Were they working self righteousness by doing as God commanded them? Were their sins covered before or AFTER it was ACCEPTED OR REJECTED and the High Priest lived or died? Did they actually have to DO SOMETHING as an act of faith? Or did God do it MAGICALLY because they said they believed or were they required to step out in FAITH and do?
I wasn't addressing LOSING SALVATION in that post. And again it goes to THROWING AWAY ONES FAITH. One can NOT be declared righteous if one has NO FAITH. And once ALL THE WARNINGS are about losing,shipwrecking,throwing it away. You can not ignore those and explain them away. They are there as stern warnings to His children that there ARE RESULTS from doing so. The warnings are NOT TO UNBELIEVERS.
Can a person be saved if one is NOT doing the works commanded God us to do? Can one really say they are saved when He gives what appears on the surface a silly little thing to do,which in and of itself can do nothing and then refuse to do it because it "SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS" not the act of stepping out in faith as it was designed to be in the first,reject it out right. But no to actually take a step of faith becomes working for self righteousness. Instead of it being an ACT OF OBEDIENCE OUT OF SAVING FAITH.
E
Your babling, I know you have a thing against me, You have since you have been here for some reason.
Do you believe in a works based Gospel? Salvation can be lost based on what we do or do not do? You just said you do not. yet with your words, no one can come to the conclusion but that you do.
Or do you believe in salvation by faith.
There is no need for you to be preaching that one must work to be saved, unless you believe we must earn salvation.
Do you believe in a works based Gospel? Salvation can be lost based on what we do or do not do? You just said you do not. yet with your words, no one can come to the conclusion but that you do.
Or do you believe in salvation by faith.
There is no need for you to be preaching that one must work to be saved, unless you believe we must earn salvation.
E
Yeah, Actually they are. Not every in any churhc is saved, many act like they are saved yet have not actually come to true saving faith. Even people addressed in all the churches in the NT had the same issue.
James spoke of people who CLAIMED to have faith, yet called their faith dead. Are you telling me he was talking to saved people?
I have answered this question about a billion time (or at least it seems that way)
You have been listening to me talk for well over a year now. if you have to ask that question yet again, You prove you have not heard one word I said, or are just continuing your vendetta against me.
From now on. I am not responding to this silly question. everyone here seems to know what I believe about this but you
OSAS always starts from the wrong premise. The question that is asked is the WRONG QUESTION. The premise MUST start from the question CAN ONE LOSE THEIR FAITH? That is the question that needs to be answered. Why is that the question that MUST be answered. It goes to the heart and soul of the Gospel.
John 3
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. [SUP]19 [/SUP]This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
John 8
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. [SUP]24 [/SUP]I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Who are you?” they asked.
“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. [SUP]26 [/SUP]“I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. [SUP]28 [/SUP]So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[SUP][a][/SUP] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. [SUP]29 [/SUP]The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” [SUP]30 [/SUP]Even as he spoke, many believed in him.
John 20
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. [SUP]31[/SUP]But these are written that you may believe[SUP][b][/SUP] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Romans 3
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP][h][/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, [SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. [SUP]25 [/SUP]God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[SUP][i][/SUP] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— [SUP]26 [/SUP]he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. [SUP]28[/SUP]For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, [SUP]30 [/SUP]since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Romans 5
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[SUP][a][/SUP] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]2 [/SUP]through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[SUP][b][/SUP] boast in the hope of the glory of God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Not only so, but we[SUP][c][/SUP] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; [SUP]4 [/SUP]perseverance, character; and character, hope. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. [SUP]6 [/SUP]You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! [SUP]10 [/SUP]For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! [SUP]11 [/SUP]Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
The prime premise is that we are JUSTIFIED and DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY FAITH. Is one justified in UNBELIEF? The plain is no. So when a believer goes INTO UNBELIEF are they still justified and being declared righteous? The answer is NO.
The warnings are always about those things that lead one into UNBELIEF. It is so simple that a child can understand it.
What's been done is that Baptism was DESIGNED to be the first outward step of faith,but it has been removed AS THE FIRST ACT OF FAITH. In the same manner as when God told the Isrealites to look at the bronze serpent to be healed. It was not given to the Gentiles first but to ISRAEL. For an Israelite it was an act of faith because they were proclaiming Jesus as the Christ. And on any ACT OF FAITH one MUST step out in faith BEFORE God will move.
Because it has BEEN REMOVED as the first step and act of faith,because it no longer an act of faith,it can now be claimed as being one is trying to be saved by works righteousness.
The Jews were baptizing even before John the Baptist. (I have actually heard a lady tell me that John was a Baptist, as in doctrine Baptist... yeah, unchecked literalism can lead to HUGE misunderstandings). This was not a new practice for them, however, I believe the faith was in the new meaning. Would you say that?
Well, I wasn't saying that THIS is the way it is, or has to be believed, only that EVEN in a post explaining why something isn't a strawman USES one! It makes you wonder how much effort was actually put into understanding different doctrine.
And Baptism and the Supper are actually a soft spot with me, given my history around those and the associations I have with them. I remember THIRSTING, hungry for a Meal, but never got one when I needed it most, because the Baptist church I went to thought it was something they did, and needed to be seldom as to not take it for granted. Mind you it was after a crisis for me, and I was immobilized in an area (didn't drive) and it was the only one I could get to. I sat there and listened to myself be basically equated to a cannibal, in Bible Study too (no one knew I was Lutheran). Oh what fun, that'll make you feel real good about yourself! And Baptism was something else, I won't go into all of it. Point is my reaction was more sentimental talk than it should've been.
Yes, I don't understand why these are considered obedience, rather than acts of faith. Well, Baptism, I can see. You had to make a point like those at the Jordon to go down to the river, repent, and submit yourself - which could be seen as a work, I suppose. But I liken that the belief of surrendering one's heart at conversion.
Why would Jesus command this, I wonder, if it happens inwardly? He spent so much time critising the Pharisees for doing works just to prove they are saved or righteous - why would He turn around and then command a work as a symbol to "prove" or show our decision to others?
Well, I wasn't saying that THIS is the way it is, or has to be believed, only that EVEN in a post explaining why something isn't a strawman USES one! It makes you wonder how much effort was actually put into understanding different doctrine.
And Baptism and the Supper are actually a soft spot with me, given my history around those and the associations I have with them. I remember THIRSTING, hungry for a Meal, but never got one when I needed it most, because the Baptist church I went to thought it was something they did, and needed to be seldom as to not take it for granted. Mind you it was after a crisis for me, and I was immobilized in an area (didn't drive) and it was the only one I could get to. I sat there and listened to myself be basically equated to a cannibal, in Bible Study too (no one knew I was Lutheran). Oh what fun, that'll make you feel real good about yourself! And Baptism was something else, I won't go into all of it. Point is my reaction was more sentimental talk than it should've been.
Yes, I don't understand why these are considered obedience, rather than acts of faith. Well, Baptism, I can see. You had to make a point like those at the Jordon to go down to the river, repent, and submit yourself - which could be seen as a work, I suppose. But I liken that the belief of surrendering one's heart at conversion.
Why would Jesus command this, I wonder, if it happens inwardly? He spent so much time critising the Pharisees for doing works just to prove they are saved or righteous - why would He turn around and then command a work as a symbol to "prove" or show our decision to others?
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Straw man walking - abortion
The law was drafted in the 1960's to help stop back street abortions that were killing mothers and babies who were both is desperate situations. It was said that making this legal would lead to abortions on a massive scale, with no proper controls.
Today we have 100,000 's of abortions, for flimsy reasons, with often the difficulty of the mother coping being the only argument. A "Moral" think tank now proposes killing babies is ok, because they are just as much a potential person as an unborn child.
It makes me respect the straw man approach, because often the compromise is so fundamental, it is dangerous to cross this line, even though the first step looks so justifiable.
The law was drafted in the 1960's to help stop back street abortions that were killing mothers and babies who were both is desperate situations. It was said that making this legal would lead to abortions on a massive scale, with no proper controls.
Today we have 100,000 's of abortions, for flimsy reasons, with often the difficulty of the mother coping being the only argument. A "Moral" think tank now proposes killing babies is ok, because they are just as much a potential person as an unborn child.
It makes me respect the straw man approach, because often the compromise is so fundamental, it is dangerous to cross this line, even though the first step looks so justifiable.
I wouldn't go so far as to say one doesn't believe as to be saved - Nicodemus seemed quite open to Jesus, though he first didn't understand due to his training. But it is interesting how those who are "Bible-believing" suddenly doesn't take what is plainly recorded because it upset tradition... after rebuking others for not agreeing with them because it is plainly recorded.