Straw Man Walking
- Thread starter SeaBass
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Sorry, I'm confused. Are you saying that any form of unbelief is a symptom of a dead faith or lack of? I was saying that I don't believe that absolutely. Maybe we should define what we mean by these terms we use - like unbelief. May seem self-explantory, but I see people talk past each other all the time because they have different understandings of the same term.
No I don't believe all forms of unbelief are salvic issues. Limit it to only those scriptures that clearly shows the things that are part of a slavic belief.
I see people going back and forth on which day Jesus actually died. Am I saved because I believe that He died on Friday and rose Sunday? And is someone else that believes that Jesus died on Thursday and rose again on Saturday condemned because they believe different then what I do on that? Of course not.
Part of our problem is we think that the other person is CLEARLY understanding what we are saying. Never mind that English is one of the worst languages to speak for clear understanding. Most of our words in English have so many meanings or shades of meaning,that if we don't clarify what we are saying it ends up being person A said ABC person B is hearing or reading that person A said XYZ. Then person B because he heard A say XYZ he accuses A of saying XYZ never mind that person A NEVER said that in the first place.
I see people going back and forth on which day Jesus actually died. Am I saved because I believe that He died on Friday and rose Sunday? And is someone else that believes that Jesus died on Thursday and rose again on Saturday condemned because they believe different then what I do on that? Of course not.
Part of our problem is we think that the other person is CLEARLY understanding what we are saying. Never mind that English is one of the worst languages to speak for clear understanding. Most of our words in English have so many meanings or shades of meaning,that if we don't clarify what we are saying it ends up being person A said ABC person B is hearing or reading that person A said XYZ. Then person B because he heard A say XYZ he accuses A of saying XYZ never mind that person A NEVER said that in the first place.
Which does scripture teach about baptism? Does scripture show that it is designed as an act of faith or a work? And if it is stated any where in scripture that IT A WORK FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS please show it FROM SCRIPTURE not your preconceived talking points.
I will concede that their are those that do TRY TO use that way,but where does SCRIPTURE teach it that way?
E
My brothers, do not fear that they left us (lost faith) for they were never of us (HAD FAITH) for if they were of us, they never would have left. but they left to prove they were never of us (paraphrased)
Jesus said, Even if we are FAITHLESS (lose faith) HE IS FAITHFULL, for he can not deny himself
You have yet to prove how ANYONE who has true saving faith in one who will NEVER LET THEM DOWN would lose that faith.
You need to stop thinking in human terms. Yes we lose faith in humans, because they let us down. Unless your going to claim God will let us down. You have not given any reason for anyone who TRULY knows their fate against a Holy God (which caused TRUE repentance) and has been saved FROM THAT FATE, would ever lose faith in that salvation.
The only people who would ever leave, are those who do not realise what they were saved from to begin with, why? THEY NEVER HAD SAVING FAITH!
E
lol. You keep going don't you?
Is baptism a work of man, or a work of God.
Whose hands are baptizing you? Mans or Gods?
I was washed by the hands of God, Buring WITH HIM in baptism, in the WORKING OF GOD, who raised him from the dead.
If you think this spiritual baptism is an act of a man dunking you in water, you have serious issues. And are giving credit to MAN for the WORK OF GOD.
Is baptism a work of man, or a work of God.
Whose hands are baptizing you? Mans or Gods?
I was washed by the hands of God, Buring WITH HIM in baptism, in the WORKING OF GOD, who raised him from the dead.
If you think this spiritual baptism is an act of a man dunking you in water, you have serious issues. And are giving credit to MAN for the WORK OF GOD.
Not to mention the fact that Jesus identifies it as a work of righteousness.....Thus it becomes us to fulfill all righteousness when submitting to the immersion of John.......Jesus was already the SON of GOD by birth (Luke) and had been given the SPIRIT without measure, and was about his Father's business some 17-18 years before his immersion as a faithful child of God........
I wasn't arguing whether or not is is a work of righteousness - I was saying that is not the ARGUMENT or premise set by the doctrine, therefore it is a strawman. It is a drawing a conclusion that the argument is wrong by twisting what the argument says to begin with.
Because believe me, I know it'd be futile to try and convince either of you otherwise AND *gasp* it doesn't matter! And I'm not going to argue WHY it doesn't matter, because that would be futile as well.
Have a nice day.
Because believe me, I know it'd be futile to try and convince either of you otherwise AND *gasp* it doesn't matter! And I'm not going to argue WHY it doesn't matter, because that would be futile as well.
Have a nice day.
And again another WRONG PREMISE,you leave out that fact that GOD WILL NOT FORCE ANYONE to remain with. It's a matter of the heart,the reason people walk away from the faith is that they have HARDENED their heart. God will allow that to happen. God will not FORCE anyone to love Him. That is and always was and will be a matter of the heart. You can not FORSAKE YOUR FIRST LOVE if you never loved them in the first place. It is a CONTRADICTION in terms to say that person the person that left NEVER LOVED THAT PERSON IN THE FIRST PLACE.
2 “To the angel[SUP][a][/SUP] of the church in Ephesus write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. [SUP]2 [/SUP]I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
2 “To the angel[SUP][a][/SUP] of the church in Ephesus write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. [SUP]2 [/SUP]I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.