Study on Apostasy.

[Roughsoul1991]

I would partially agree with this.

However, some are ignorant by lack of education, & others because they refuse the truth.

So, those that refuse knowledge aren't even in the body. That is indeed idiotic.

Sorry if that sounded a little mean.

I understand it is annoying to keep posting evidence and scripture, evidence and scripture, evidence and scripture. And then people act as if you made it up pulled out of thin air.

But just as the Pharisees held their belief for so long, when confronted with truth they couldn't let go of old belief. Jesus did miracles in front of them but i guess pride or the fear of believing something wrong would make them look weak.

But all i can say we can say our peace and move on. God will work in the hearts of those who push truth away.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

1 Peter 4:17For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?

It's so obvious that if we see this in scripture and also we see the importance of Jesus throughout all scripture as what they focus on. Which isnt wrong. Its just wrong to deny the scriptures like above.

So its obvious if scripture speaks of obedience and faith and others teach the Lord can keep us from falling. Then its obvious to put 2 and 2 together. One must remain faithful and in that faithfulness God can keep you from falling.

We have to look at all scripture as one not just the ones we want to twist to fit how we want to see scripture.

You would be suprised at what scripture we just read over and its great to hear. But we dont like what it says so we just read over it. Instead of ingesting it to let it do its full work.

I think people need to ingest more because when you do even the simplest scripture will have some of the most profound enlightenments.

 

[Grace777x70]

This is a scripture too that says that any one who has ever sinned is blotted out of God's book. It looks like no one is going to be in God's book. Don't you believe the word of God? This is "God" Himself speaking here. Are His words true or not?

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

 

[Grace777x70]

This is a scripture too that says that any one who has ever sinned is blotted out of God's book. It looks like no one is going to be in God's book. Don't you believe the word of God? This is "God" Himself speaking here. Are His words true or not?

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

Obviously...This is a true statement but it is not the ultimate statement of truth because what Christ did on the cross and resurrection trumps this truth.

All context starts and ends with the revelation of the risen Christ Himself and His work on the cross and resurrection. All scripture must be filtered through the finished work of Christ in order to get the context needed when reading all scripture.

 

[samuel23]

Hi Grace: In post 103 you are manipulating scripture and you know that you are manipulating scripture.

 

[mailmandan]

You can't honestly say that with all the evidence in front of you.

You have no absolute, solid evidence and you still have not shown me a verse in the Bible that specifically says a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." It's interesting how you quote a lot of the same verses that Roman Catholics quote in their efforts to prove that salvation can be lost. They also teach salvation by works.

There is no "new classification name "so-called saints" in God's eyes. You're either a saint or sinner.

We're either a saint or a sinner, yet the Bible talks about false prophets/false teachers, wolves in sheep's clothing, false brethren etc.. (Matthew 7:15; Matthew 24:11; 2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4; 2 Peter 2:1 etc..). If you visited a church on Sunday (particularly a very large church) and the Pastor greeted the congregation with "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" and the message is addressed to believers, does that mean EVERYONE attending church that Sunday MUST be a brother or sister in Christ? Of course it does not.

All the epistles are written to instruct the church in righteousness. Very few things were written about sinners with the exception of false teachers, prophets, etc, warning the church about them.

The Bible has enough to say about false teachers/prophets/brethren etc.. It's also not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with the group of genuine believers at church.

The rest is what will happen to THEM if they don't keep the faith. Judgment. It first starts at the house of God.

Saving faith is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. If someone professes to have faith, yet later they turn away, never to return, then their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start (John 2:23-25; 6:64-71; 8:31-59). Judgment in regards to the house of God is not condemnation, but the purging, chastening, and purifying of the church by God. If God judges His church which He loves in this regard, what will be the fury on the ungodly?!

The churches in Revelation were warned what would happen if they didn't repent. Judgment. Eternal judgment.

No way you can twist that into a "so called church".

Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent (emphasis supplied). This is part of the first of the seven letters in Revelation 2-3. These were letters from the Lord to seven local churches in Asia Minor. Clearly the Lord wanted the members of the church at Ephesus to repent--to change their attitudes regarding their works. Not repent and believe the gospel all over again in order to get saved all over again. "You have left your first love" (v 4b). "Repent and do the first works" (v 5b).

Works of love no longer characterized the church at Ephesus. The preceding (vv 2-3) and following (v 6) verses make it clear that this church was not totally displeasing to the Lord. He commended the Ephesian church for maintaining doctrinal purity in the face of false teachers in the Ephesian church. However, "doctrinal purity and loyalty can never be a substitute for love." The question in the verse before us is the identification of the warning which follows the Lord's command to repent. What did the Lord mean when He spoke of removing the church's lampstand if it did not repent? The removal of the lampstand is clearly figurative language. This does not mean that individuals will lose their salvation, but the church can forfeit its place of light-bearing and witness. Ephesus is a city now wrapped in the mantle of Islam. The light of the church has indeed been removed there.

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi Grace: In post 103 you are manipulating scripture and you know that you are manipulating scripture.

The scripture was not manipulated. The scripture is truly stated. My interpretation of it was my own understanding of that scripture without factoring in Christ which I did "on purpose" for a specific reason........

I am showing that we can post scriptures and try to "make " them say things that are not true without factoring in Christ's work. I am also showing how we can says things like "This is God's word - don't you believe it?"... in order to make my interpretation look like it is so. That was my reason for post #104

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The beauty of 1 Peter 4 is that in context from verse 12 on to the end - Peter is telling those that are going through trials and suffering as a Christian to entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in that He will do what is right concerning them.

1 Peter 4:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

It is a beautiful chapter on how God is being faithful to us in the midst of trails and suffering as a Christian. Thank you Lord!

The truth is all judgment was placed on Christ on the cross and we are in Him now.

And what does entrust mean? Shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

Faith-
belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof clinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return (2) : complete trust

The truth is all judgment was placed on Christ on the cross and we are in Him now.

We are in him through faith. We are given grace through faith. Everything hinges on faith and Jesus. The faithful will remain in a constant growth of surrender, trust, obedience, and following the will of God.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The beauty of 1 Peter 4 is that in context from verse 12 on to the end - Peter is telling those that are going through trials and suffering as a Christian to entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in that He will do what is right concerning them.

1 Peter 4:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

It is a beautiful chapter on how God is being faithful to us in the midst of trails and suffering as a Christian. Thank you Lord!

The truth is all judgment was placed on Christ on the cross and we are in Him now.

And what does entrust mean? Shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

Faith-
belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof clinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return (2) : complete trust

The truth is all judgment was placed on Christ on the cross and we are in Him now.

We are in him through faith. We are given grace through faith. Everything hinges on faith and Jesus. The faithful will remain in a constant growth of surrender, trust, obedience, and following the will of God.

 

[Grace777x70]

And how are we saved? When we hear and believe - we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. This is when we have entrusted our souls to our Creator.

Is Jesus a liar? He said that the Holy Spirit will in us forever. John 14:16. When you can answer the question "Is Jesus a liar?". Then you can know what to believe to be true.

I believe Him and what He said He has done. Everyone needs to make up their own minds about Him.

Why do we constantly refuse to believe in what Christ has done and constantly trying to tell believers our loving Father is going to send us to hell? Why do we make ourselves the Savior?

We do not save ourselves. Christ is our Savior. Neither is death our savior in that only "if we hold out until the end until we die". ( what ever that means in real life )

Some of us really need to hear the actual gospel of the grace of Christ and actually become believers. Examine yourselves to see if Christ is in you.

Now I understand what a minister said when the Lord told him that he was sending him out as a missionary. The guy said.."Where Lord?" The Lord said - "Right where you are. I'm sending you to the unbelieving Christians to turn them into actual believing Christians "

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.

Getting "saved" is simple.

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit

( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is he like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1) the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2) you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)

you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself. We don't seal ourselves nor un-seal us. We are joined as one spirit with the Lord. 1 Cor. 6:17

 

[Rockrz]

We're either a saint or a sinner, yet the Bible talks about false prophets/false teachers, wolves in sheep's clothing, false brethren etc..

And many of those folks started off walking with the Lord and the Word was choked out of them by satan and they becamse deceived and are "clouds without water" and "twice dead" as mentioned in Jude... so they be sinners.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

And how are we saved? When we hear and believe - we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. This is when we have entrusted our souls to our Creator.

Is Jesus a liar? He said that the Holy Spirit will in us forever. John 14:16. When you can answer the question "Is Jesus a liar?". Then you can know what to believe to be true.

I believe Him and what He said He has done. Everyone needs to make up their own minds about Him.

Why do we constantly refuse to believe in what Christ has done and constantly trying to tell believers our loving Father is going to send us to hell? Why do we make ourselves the Savior?

We do not save ourselves. Christ is our Savior. Neither is death our savior in that only "if we hold out until the end until we die". ( what ever that means in real life )

Some of us really need to hear the actual gospel of the grace of Christ and actually become believers. Examine yourselves to see if Christ is in you.

Now I understand what a minister said when the Lord told him that he was sending him out as a missionary. The guy said.."Where Lord?" The Lord said - "Right where you are. I'm sending you to the unbelieving Christians to turn them into actual believing Christians "

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.

Getting "saved" is simple.

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit

( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is he like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1) the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2) you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)

you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself. We don't seal ourselves nor un-seal us. We are joined as one spirit with the Lord. 1 Cor. 6:17

[h=1]Galatians 5Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Freedom of the Christian[/h][FONT=&quot]5 Christ has liberated us to be free. Stand firm then and don’t submit again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Take note! I, Paul, tell you that if you get yourselves circumcised, Christ will not benefit you at all. 3 Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to keep the entire law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law are alienated from Christ; you have fallen from grace. (to fall from a thing, to lose it: τῆς χάριτος, Galatians 5:4) 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision accomplishes anything; what matters is faith working through love.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

Basically, if we are not in faith we have fallen from grace. Because without faith we are in a legalistic mindset.



[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 You were running well. Who prevented you from obeying the truth?8 This persuasion did not come from the One who called you. 9 A little yeast leavens the whole lump of dough. 10 I have confidence in the Lord you will not accept any other view. But whoever it is that is confusing you will pay the penalty. 11 Now brothers, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 I wish those who are disturbing you might also get themselves castrated![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 For you were called to be free, brothers; only don’t use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but serve one another through love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in one statement: Love your neighbor as yourself.[a] 15 But if you bite and devour one another, watch out, or you will be consumed by one another.

Paul is concerned and confident at the same time. Obviously, they had fallen to a point to have Paul ask who prevented you from obeying the truth? Basically, one bad apple can ruin the bunch. That bad apple was probably a false teacher. But you see believers was being persuaded by this false teacher. So much so Paul had to write a letter. We are called to be free but we must surrender to the one who makes us free. If not we are in error of using our freedom and still remaining in our fleshly desires.

[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 26:41Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]41 Stay awake and pray, so that you won’t enter into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

We are not completely depraved from doing good as so many calvinist belief. All God asks of us to do is surrender in faith and this will lead to righteousness. [/FONT]
[h=3]The Spirit versus the Flesh[/h][FONT=&quot]16 I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don’t do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


Obviously, if we abuse our freedom and not allow the Spirit to lead us then we very well could end up again enslaved by the law.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious:[b][c] sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, 21 envy,[d]drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The continuance of the works of flesh Hebrews 10:26 and in the continuance of insulting the Spirit of grace Hebrews 10:29, one could very well expect not to inherit the Kingdom of God. But we are told what walking and being led by the Spirit will produce. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness,goodness, faith,[e] 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the fleshwith its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit. 26 We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

So how do we not trample on the Son of God, regarded him as profane, the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulting the Spirit of grace? Remain in a Faithful love for God and follow the Spirit, which will help us also stay in faith as a fruit from following the Spirit. Which such things there is no law.

I have explained your verses you love to jump to above with accurate evidence and research. Proving what the seal means but you ignore it and also ignore scripture saying insulting the Spirit of Grace can lead to a no longer sacrifice for sins. Well, how does someone insult the Spirit of grace? They must have the Spirit of grace to insult it.


How does one get alienated (ἀπό τίνος, to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from, anyone; to terminate all contact with one) and fall from grace?

The only way to be severed from something is to have been attached. And the only way to fall from something is to previouslyhave it.

Galatians ch5 is Paul speaking to believers as he mentions brothers quite often. [/FONT]

 

[Grace777x70]

Galatians 5Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Freedom of the Christian

5 Christ has liberated us to be free. Stand firm then and don’t submit again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Take note! I, Paul, tell you that if you get yourselves circumcised, Christ will not benefit you at all. 3 Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to keep the entire law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law are alienated from Christ; you have fallen from grace. (to fall from a thing, to lose it: τῆςχάριτος, Galatians 5:4) 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision accomplishes anything; what matters is faith working through love.


Basically, if we are not in faith we have fallen from grace. Because without faith we are in a legalistic mindset.




7 You were running well. Who prevented you from obeying the truth?8 This persuasion did not come from the One who called you. 9A little yeast leavens the whole lump of dough. 10 I have confidence in the Lord you will not accept any other view. But whoever it is that is confusing you will pay the penalty. 11 Now brothers, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 I wish those who are disturbing you might also get themselves castrated!
13For you were called to be free, brothers; only don’t use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but serve one another through love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in one statement: Love your neighbor as yourself.[a] 15 But if you bite and devour one another, watch out, or you will be consumed by one another.

Paul is concerned and confident at the same time. Obviously, they had fallen to a point to have Paul ask who prevented you from obeying the truth? Basically, one bad apple can ruin the bunch. That bad apple was probably a false teacher. But you see believers was being persuaded by this false teacher. So much so Paul had to write a letter. We are called to be free but we must surrender to the one who makes us free. If not we are in error of using our freedom and still remaining in our fleshly desires.


Matthew 26:41Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

41 Stay awake and pray, so that you won’t enter into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

We are not completely depraved from doing good as so many calvinist belief. All God asks of us to do is surrender in faith and this will lead to righteousness.
The Spirit versus the Flesh

16 I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don’t do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


Obviously, if we abuse our freedom and not allow the Spirit to lead us then we very well could end up again enslaved by the law.


19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious:[b][c] sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, 21 envy,[d]drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The continuance of the works of flesh Hebrews 10:26 and in the continuance of insulting the Spirit of grace Hebrews 10:29, one could very well expect not to inherit the Kingdom of God. But we are told what walking and being led by the Spirit will produce.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness,goodness, faith,[e]23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the fleshwith its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit. 26 We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

So how do we not trample on the Son of God, regarded him as profane, the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulting the Spirit of grace? Remain in a Faithful love for God and follow the Spirit, which will help us also stay in faith as a fruit from following the Spirit. Which such things there is no law.

I have explained your verses you love to jump to above with accurate evidence and research. Proving what the seal means but you ignore it and also ignore scripture saying insulting the Spirit of Grace can lead to a no longer sacrifice for sins. Well, how does someone insult the Spirit of grace? They must have the Spirit of grace to insult it.


How does one get alienated (ἀπότίνος, to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from, anyone; to terminate all contact with one) and fall from grace?

The only way to be severed from something is to have been attached. And the only way to fall from something is to previouslyhave it.

Galatians ch5 is Paul speaking to believers as he mentions brothers quite often.

Fallen from grace means religious people have been trying to make themselves acceptable to God by what they do or don't do.

If people were kicked out of Christ because they were religious - 100 % of the church would be lost. Paul doesn't say that they are all un-saved now - he said that they need to walk by the Spirit and not the flesh.

Walk by the flesh and we will not experience the life of Christ that is our inheritance while we are in this earth. Refuse to believe that we have the peace of God in a situation and we will not inherit that life that is in the kingdom while we are alive. The kingdom of God is peace.

Gal 5:4 is not saying that people are kicked out of Christ. It is saying that Christ's work of grace has become "idle" or not working" in your life. My goodness man - we really need to learn about the gospel.

Being alienated from Christ means that we will not experience His life in us because of our religious beliefs - such as losing your salvation. We will not experience His life in us by His grace because we are being religious and making the grace of God "idle or useless" from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

The phrase “is become of no effect unto you” was rendered from the Greek words “APO” and “KATARGEO.” KATARGEO means “to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively” (Strong’s Concordance)

What effect is Christ having in your life? If you feel separated from what Christ has done for you, then the cause is probably what Paul was speaking about here. You have turned from grace and are trying to earn God’s favor. That stops God’s power and makes all that Jesus provided of no effect in your life.

The antidote is to get back into the grace of God by putting faith in what Jesus did for you and not in what you are doing for Him (Romans 5:1-2).

The expression “you are fallen from grace” “should be understood not in the sense that grace has been taken away from them, but in the sense that they have turned their backs on it. One may also say ‘you have put yourself in a place where God cannot be good to you, or show you His goodness’” (UBS Handbook, p. 122).

“Fallen from grace” is not speaking about the Armenian doctrine of losing salvation by one’s sins; rather, it is speaking of turning from the method of salvation (grace) to seeking salvation by another way.

Hebrews 10:26 is talking about the willful sinning of unbelief in Christ to the Jews and going to the temple for sacrifices instead of trusting in Christ's sacrifice for sins. They are insulting the Spirit of grace and treating the blood of Jesus as being common - as in no different then the animals blood for sins.

 

[Grace777x70]

We do not get kicked out of Christ because we do not experience peace while we are on this earth because we don't believe in it in a situation. It is with faith and patience we inherit these promises while we are in this earth. The kingdom of God is righteousness , peace and joy in the Spirit.

The promise of God is that we have the peace of Christ. If I don't believe that in a situation - I will not experience that peace which is in Christ. Does God kick me out of Christ for that? Of course not.

It means that I will not experience the peace of God that is my inheritance in Christ because I am one with Christ. What if I don't have joy - does that mean God kicks me out of Christ because of my un-belief that "cuts off" the grace of Christ from operating in my life like it was meant to do. Is God going to send me to hell now?

My goodness - we really have no idea of the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place nor know the nature and character of our loving Father - nor have any idea like we should of the awesome finished work that our Lord id for us on the cross and resurrection - and the fact that we too have died with Him and rose to newness of life.

This whole believers in Christ go to hell doctrine is from the very pit of hell and has done more damage to the body of Christ then any other legalism that has come to the mind of man inspired from the enemy to destroy the very work of the gospel of the grace of Christ from operating in our lives like it was meant to do.

 

[mailmandan]

And many of those folks started off walking with the Lord and the Word was choked out of them by satan and they becamse deceived and are "clouds without water" and "twice dead" as mentioned in Jude... so they be sinners.

False. In regards to the thorny soil, the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal, making it [unfruitful]. The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person; "the anxieties of the age and the pleasures of wealth chokes the message. The worries of life and the delusions of wealth have the effect of stifling the word/gospel, such that the person does not bear the fruit of salvation. Neither the stony ground hearer or the thorny ground hearer was fruitful. Put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit (Bible in Basic English). The potential to eventually become established and produce fruit was there, but the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal. It (the seed, the word) became unfruitful (produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing), because the growth of the word was choked. In the Complete Jewish Bible we read, Now the seed sown among thorns stands for someone who hears the message, but it is choked by the worries of the world and the deceitful glamor of wealth, so that it produces nothing. Nothing amounts to nothing and nothing was mentioned about it ever producing something. In both cases, faith without works is dead.

In CONTRAST, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." *Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size.* I suppose the question still remains, "can this forth soil eventually become fruitless?" I have to conclude that if this were possible, why didn't Christ include such a scenario before concluding? There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING THEREAFTER.

Jude did not say that these certain men who have have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ were "once alive" or "once good." Your argument is based on faulty human logic and nothing is mentioned about anyone losing salvation here. A tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is twice dead. The NAS says "doubly dead." *Nothing is mentioned about these ungodly men ever being good from the start, but then later becoming deceived.

*In Matthew 15:13, Jesus said - Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be "uprooted."

 

[Stephen63]

Here's what I've been hearing: This group says we're saved by grace, which is fine as long as faith is there with it.

But, when the scriptures are read about "falling from grace, the same group says, "Oh nooooo, that don't mean you lose your salvation", you're still saved.

How would we still be saved, one might ask? They will still say "because of grace".

You mean the grace they fell out of?

This seems to be a never ending circular reasoning based on a lie one way or another that says you can only be saved by grace & that falling from grace doesn't mean losing salvation.

Excuse me for saying this, but somebody's talkin' outta both sides of their mouth.

 

[NayborBear]

Jez gotta love "Biblical Program" copy n paste debates!....Don't mind me!....

 

[mailmandan]

Here's what I've been hearing: This group says we're saved by grace, which is fine as long as faith is there with it.

But, when the scriptures are read about "falling from grace, the same group says, "Oh nooooo, that don't mean you lose your salvation", you're still saved.

How would we still be saved, one might ask? They will still say "because of grace".

You mean the grace they fell out of?

This seems to be a never ending circular reasoning based on a lie one way or another that says you can only be saved by grace & that falling from grace doesn't mean losing salvation.

Excuse me for saying this, but somebody's talkin' outta both sides of their mouth.

Galatians 5:4 - You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law, but had they fully come to that place yet? If they had and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation," it's over, I'm done wasting my time with you?

*Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! They were obviously getting side-tracked by legalistic teachers, but I don't see the words "lost salvation" there.

Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The word "perfect" here does not mean sinless, but complete, mature. The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Galatians 5:4 - You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law, but had they fully come to that place yet? If they had and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation," it's over, I'm done wasting my time with you?

*Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! They were obviously getting side-tracked by legalistic teachers, but I don't see the words "lost salvation" there.

Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The word "perfect" here does not mean sinless, but complete, mature. The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

How can one be so blind to scripture?

Paul would not be warning them if it wasn't possible.

A good leader will always be confident in his people. But thats just what that is confidence. Paul would not be a good influential leader if he wasn't confident.

Galatians 3:3 whats your point?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Fallen from grace means religious people have been trying to make themselves acceptable to God by what they do or don't do.

If people were kicked out of Christ because they were religious - 100 % of the church would be lost. Paul doesn't say that they are all un-saved now - he said that they need to walk by the Spirit and not the flesh.

Walk by the flesh and we will not experience the life of Christ that is our inheritance while we are in this earth. Refuse to believe that we have the peace of God in a situation and we will not inherit that life that is in the kingdom while we are alive. The kingdom of God is peace.

Gal 5:4 is not saying that people are kicked out of Christ. It is saying that Christ's work of grace has become "idle" or not working" in your life. My goodness man - we really need to learn about the gospel.

Being alienated from Christ means that we will not experience His life in us because of our religious beliefs - such as losing your salvation. We will not experience His life in us by His grace because we are being religious and making the grace of God "idle or useless" from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

The phrase “is become of no effect unto you” was rendered from the Greek words “APO” and “KATARGEO.” KATARGEO means “to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively” (Strong’s Concordance)

What effect is Christ having in your life? If you feel separated from what Christ has done for you, then the cause is probably what Paul was speaking about here. You have turned from grace and are trying to earn God’s favor. That stops God’s power and makes all that Jesus provided of no effect in your life.

The antidote is to get back into the grace of God by putting faith in what Jesus did for you and not in what you are doing for Him (Romans 5:1-2).

The expression “you are fallen from grace” “should be understood not in the sense that grace has been taken away from them, but in the sense that they have turned their backs on it. One may also say ‘you have put yourself in a place where God cannot be good to you, or show you His goodness’” (UBS Handbook, p. 122).

“Fallen from grace” is not speaking about the Armenian doctrine of losing salvation by one’s sins; rather, it is speaking of turning from the method of salvation (grace) to seeking salvation by another way.

Hebrews 10:26 is talking about the willful sinning of unbelief in Christ to the Jews and going to the temple for sacrifices instead of trusting in Christ's sacrifice for sins. They are insulting the Spirit of grace and treating the blood of Jesus as being common - as in no different then the animals blood for sins.

Gal 5:4 is not saying that people are kicked out of Christ. It is saying that Christ's work of grace has become "idle" or not working" in your life. My goodness man - we really need to learn about the gospel.

Your right grace wouldn't work if they had fell from grace lol you say i need to learn the gospel but i think its you that cant except what the gospel says.

All these scriptures that i have posted on this thread are directed to salvation. And by no means of lack of proof.

But i understand if you believed something for a very long time. Its almost impossible to believe differently.

The only way is to always stay open minded. I guess old dogs cant learn new tricks. I guess what we believe as a infant believer is never suppose to grow.

Jesus did tell me i would be criticized for speaking truth. Im just thankful its only a few of yall.